Resistance resists resistible resistance debuffs

[Yomo Kimyata]

I have a few questions for you gurus out there.  As we (mostly?) know, characters and mobs may have resistance to various debuffs.  If you have a 20% resist slow debuff (from say, slotting a Winters Gift proc), if you get hit by a resistible slow debuff, only 80% of it will apply to you (amount of debuff, not length of debuff, I think).  That makes sense (and a good reason to get 100% slow resistance to be able to dance over caltrops).

 

Damage resistance debuffs are a bit different.  If you get hit with a resistible damage resistance debuff for 20%, your character will resist some of that debuff based on how much damage resistance you have in each category.  So if you had 100% smashing resistance, 50% energy resistance, 0% psionic resistance, you would resist 100% of the smashing debuff (leaving you with 100% smashing resistance), 50% of the energy debuff (leaving you with 50% - (50%*20) = 40% energy resistance), and none of the psionic debuff (leaving you at -20% psionic resistance).  The debuffs also work off your base value, so if you got DR debuffed by two different mobs, it would work off your base value and not your currently debuffed values.  It's covered in the wiki here:

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Resistance_(Mechanics)

 

Also, there are some powers that are flagged as unresistible.  For example, Enervating Field is flagged as unresistible for radiation Paragon protectors, but it is not flagged as resistible for defenders.  Boo!

 

Some of my questions for you technical lads and lasses and huges:

 

1.  Let's say my scrapper has 90% smashing resistance, which is capped at 75% because she is a scrapper.  Which number is used to calculate your resistance to resistance debuffs?  In other words are you going to take 10% of the debuff, or 25%?

 

2.  In City of Data (all hail Uberguy) you can find the unresistible icon (which looks like (only smaller) on various powers.  I was presuming that if that icon didn't show up, then it is resistible.  However, when talking to a Rikti pylon (with 20% resistance across the board, I noticed that things didn't add up.  Then I just realized that even though the debuffs were listed at 100%, they were actually applied:

 

 

So I guess I answered my own question, since the total resistance seems to be correct.

 

So I guess I'm only asking about the first one.  Thanks!

 

[Snarky]

Yes the “hidden” resistance value is used to resist debuffs, not the capped amount as you surmised.  
 

this is why it is important to 100% res values on tour Brutes and Tanks where possible.  
 

i never realized any of this until the Aeon where it became a debate topic.  Now i build slightly different 

[roleki]

I'm not sure what scenario it was that convinced me of it, but I was under the impression that a debuff had to chew through ALL of your resistance above the softcap before it affected your actual resistance.  

[High_Beam]

if resistance is resistible then is it not futile?  Asking for a friend from the Delta Quadrant.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

That makes sense (and a good reason to get 100% slow resistance to be able to dance over caltrops).

 

You mentioned an even better reason later on: Unresistable resistance debuffs.  Pretty much any NPC that has a Tar Patch is unresistable.  Having a combat monitor up showing any of your resistance values AND 100% (or near to it) slow resist is a must if you rely mostly on resistance for survival.  A +3 or +4 purple boss mob dropping a Tar Patch on you can knock you down from capped 90% res on a Tanker/Brute to 50%.   Then again down to 10% if there are two of them in the spawn.  This became a topic of conversation a while back on the Tanker forum when someone when and Flashbacked the First Ward mission that sends you into the Survivor Compound to find Anna.   Praetorian Shepherds enemy group has one called a Prophet.   And they have the dreaded unresistable Tar Patch.

 

Night Ward's Black Nights and Huntmasters also have variations on the same thing.  And as you mentioned, some radiation enemies have that unresistable Enervating Field.  Also something you can run away from, though you have to run far enough for the toggle to cancel.  Carrying that debuff away from your friends is also a good thing.

[Snarky]

50 minutes ago, roleki said:

I'm not sure what scenario it was that convinced me of it, but I was under the impression that a debuff had to chew through ALL of your resistance above the softcap before it affected your actual resistance.  

It’s strangely straightforward for CoH.  Although awkward to say, which I suppose makes up for it

 

Resistance is its own debuff resistance to Resistance debuffs.   Am I saying that right?

 

If, as a Tank, you are at cap 90% resistance, and you did not bother to overcap (or could not easily) then when your resistance is debuffed you resist 90% of that.  But if you did overcap to 100%?   Then your resistance cannot be debuffed 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Snarky

[ZemX]

36 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Then your resistance cannot be debuffed 

 

Except by unresistable debuffs, yeah.

[roleki]

I wish they would have went ahead and called them irresistible.  

[Yomo Kimyata]

12 minutes ago, roleki said:

I wish they would have went ahead and called them irresistible.  

 

That would have been the way to do it simply.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Follow up query, I assume the "using base resistance" works the other way as well?

 

So if you had 50% smashing resistance and you had 50% smashing resistance from external sources (orange insp, sonic defender, etc.) and got hit with a resistible 30% debuff, would your smashing resistance be:

 

A.  100%, since you are a rockstar.

B.  85%, since your base resisted half of the 30% debuff making your "core" resistance 35%, but you've still got an additional 50% buff.

C.  0%, since while you were reading this you got ambushed by a sapper and died.

D.  Other

[Snarky]

38 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Follow up query, I assume the "using base resistance" works the other way as well?

 

So if you had 50% smashing resistance and you had 50% smashing resistance from external sources (orange insp, sonic defender, etc.) and got hit with a resistible 30% debuff, would your smashing resistance be:

 

A.  100%, since you are a rockstar.

B.  85%, since your base resisted half of the 30% debuff making your "core" resistance 35%, but you've still got an additional 50% buff.

C.  0%, since while you were reading this you got ambushed by a sapper and died.

D.  Other

as i understand it (so good F-ing luck...) it is your current value.  even if through T9 buff, magic pool buff, incarnate hybrid being on, or a simple small orange inspiration.  if that values soars to 100 you are golden.  unless it is irresist... err unresistable  this is a really annoying subject with one word being every term in the damn conversation.

[SeraphimKensai]

Easy way to test, make a quick AE map where you fight rad/sonic defenders and see what happens.

[Hedgefund]

Whenever I've wanted to see the result of stacked -res I'd flashback to around lvl 30 and get some of the wailers swimming around St. Martial to attack.  Doing so willshow a result of (A) to the prior question.

[ZemX]

13 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

A.  100%, since you are a rockstar.

 

There's a "calculating debuffs" thread in the achives here somewhere.  Resistance to damage resistance debuffs works off of the "undebuffed" (another non-word) resistance.  Meaning all your res buffs are tallied first, no matter where they come from.  That's used to reduce the value of the incoming debuff.  What's left subtracts from your active resistance.  But the "undebuffed" value is still what is used for any subsequent incoming debuffs.  Hence there is no such thing as "cascading resistance failure" like there is with defense.

 

There is either an astonishingly complex reason why it was done this way or.... the combat formulas weren't all written by the same person.

[Uun]

In the link you posted at the top of the thread:

 

Resistance to resistance debuffs follow the formula

NewResistance = OriginalResistance + DebuffAmount - [(DebuffAmount × OriginalResistance) / 100%]

 

Plugging your question into the formula, the answer is A (100%):

 

100% + -30% - [(-30% x 100%) / 100%] = 100% + -30% - [-30%] = 100%

 

If you started with 90% resistance:

 

90% + -30% - [(-30% x 90%) / 100%] = 90% + -30% - [-27%] = 87%

[Yomo Kimyata]

So Buffed amount adds directly to original resistance and is not offset from/by debuff amount.  Roger that.

[Bopper]

On 1/25/2023 at 11:00 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

Let's say my scrapper has 90% smashing resistance, which is capped at 75% because she is a scrapper.  Which number is used to calculate your resistance to resistance debuffs?  In other words are you going to take 10% of the debuff, or 25%?

You probably got your answer already but I am not caught up on replies.

 

To answer your question, you work off 90%. So let's say you got hit with a 50% debuff. You resist 90% of it so you only take 5% debuff. That puts you at 85%, so you're still capped out at your standard 75% damage resistance. You would have to be hit with over 150% debuffs before you start to take more damage.

 

 

[Carnifax]

2 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

So Buffed amount adds directly to original resistance and is not offset from/by debuff amount.  Roger that.

Yup. Game seems to figure out your total resists first and that's the figure used to resist all the debuffs. And your resist over the cap is debuffed from before the cap is applied (like when you overslot Defense as a buffer)

 

I spent an hour on my Inv stalker with a gang of Wailers in St Martial (lovely people, bit noisy) checking / figuring it out. I'd initially used my Fire tank but they couldn't budge him below the cap. Stalker was a better test because of the 75% cap, my s/l wasn't at 100% uncapped and I could check weakers resists too.