Are we likely to see taunt get fixed in the near future?

[Meknomancer]

So i'm standing next to the av, nothing else nearby to put me over aggro cap and i use pretty much the same chain on all tanks and only play tanks with damage auras now, taunt-build up- single target attackx3, repeat and the av spins round and pummels whoever i call that an issue that needs a fix. Best example of this is usually a gm like Adamastor which will simply spin round and pummel the lore pets. Which brings me back to my original point, is CoH taunt/threat now working in a similar manner to CO's in that you need to be building threat level through dps in which case the taunt power is broke.

[Hyperstrike]

I dunno.

Currently running a Shield/Broadsword Tank.

Noting that some enemies just stand there and never move when taunted.

Certain levels of Nemesis soldier do this.  I can pull almost two full groups away.  Whack them, then go back and scream at the remaining guy.

He just stands there and tries to shoot at me, even though I've ducked around a corner.

Never moves.

I have to go out and thump him.

[ZemX]

41 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Certain levels of Nemesis soldier do this.  I can pull almost two full groups away.  Whack them, then go back and scream at the remaining guy.

He just stands there and tries to shoot at me, even though I've ducked around a corner.

 

Was it a sniper?  Those dudes never follow as far as I've seen.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

Certain levels of Nemesis soldier do this.  I can pull almost two full groups away.  Whack them, then go back and scream at the remaining guy.

He just stands there and tries to shoot at me, even though I've ducked around a corner.

Never moves.

I have to go out and thump him.

 

Enemies with no Melee attacks are reluctant to move, and if the taunter is still with their (debuffed) range, they don't have to move.

[ZemX]

16 minutes ago, tidge said:

Enemies with no Melee attacks are reluctant to move, and if the taunter is still with their (debuffed) range, they don't have to move.

 

Which describes most of the Praetorian experience, as I recall.  Giant rooms full of enemies all spaced out evenly and having only (or just preferring greatly) ranged attacks with enough range to largely ignore the range debuff in Taunt.   

 

[Cries in Tanker]

[UberGuy]

On 2/28/2023 at 1:17 PM, Captain Fabulous said:

I believe this is one of the rare cases where CoD doesn't correctly parse server data. This was explained in a recent post 

 

At least for the proc, I'm inclined to think this is a simpler bug than the one in the linked thread. I am treating target.isFriend? as an indicator of PvE, and I honestly can't explain why I chose to do that. Using the logic explained in that thread, this ends up evaluating as "not PvE" which turns into "PvP". I'll have to make sure it doesn't cause surprising changes in other powers' PvP/PvE evaluation, but I think I can just fix that one by removing target.isFriend? from the list of things that indicate PvE.

 

The issue in the proc aura is the same as the one in the other thread. I'm still pondering ways to fix that, and have an idea, but will need some time to code it up and see what happens. I'm not sure what I'm thinking of as a solution is do-able with the expression evaluation framework(s) I use currently.

[Spaghetti Betty]

9 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Which describes most of the Praetorian experience, as I recall.  Giant rooms full of enemies all spaced out evenly and having only (or just preferring greatly) ranged attacks with enough range to largely ignore the range debuff in Taunt.   

 

[Cries in Tanker]

I have specifically scoured almost every map added with GR for herding spots just for this reason. More than you think, but still few and far in between.

 

Yes, even the huge tunnel maps.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Spaghetti Betty

[twozerofoxtrot]

5 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

From memory, the number of different debuffs you apply factors into your aggro generation. That's one of the reasons why debuff-heavy support sets generate so much aggro.

 

Ice throws out a lot of different types of debuffs, so it generates higher threat.

 

 

 

Yup that explains Ice and Bio, but less so SR.

 

Unless Veracor's theory is correct and some of SR's self-buffing powers are being considered as debuffs by the enemy underneath the hood. 

 

The only thing I can think of, since it's unique to SR and there are 3 applications of it, is the scaling DR and somehow its messing with Gauntlet/Fury threat aura. But that's a wildly unsupported hypothesis. 

[tidge]

On 2/28/2023 at 4:42 PM, Luminara said:

For the record, I don't believe Taunts are the problem.  Critter scripting/AI is the problem.  Something changed on the original servers, and I commented on it as far back as Issue 16.  It wasn't the Threat calculation or factoring, because if it had been that, critters would've run as soon as they were Taunted.  Nor was it a change to the Taunt mechanic itself, I can't find any evidence of that ever being adjusted.  That only leaves scripting/AI.  At some point, Paragon did something to the scripts/AI which caused a massive change in critter behavior.  That's when the running away and strolling back at a leisurely pace shit started, and when Taunting stopped being reliable.

 

I recall a couple of changes to AI behavior; I *think* both of them were applied prior to Issue 16.

 

1) There was a change made to prevent Devouring Earth Swarms from hugging Fire Aura characters until the Swarms sacrificed themselves and XP to the character. Is it possible that this piece of AI was later applied to more/all critters?

 

2) The second change was not so much in the AI, but the code was tweaked to prevent critters from speeding away from a player at Mach 2 if the critter was disoriented. Prior to that fix, it was obvious that there was something in the AI code that was prioritizing a disoriented enemy to move away from the player who has applied the stun. I have long wondered about the "desire to run" behavior that supersedes all else... it's been part of the game since launch (those Atlas Park purse snatchers).

 

I think I was on a hardware-related break (i.e. "PC was broke, player was broke") from the game when Issue 16 dropped, and while I was playing when Fear replaced Afraid I don't specifically remember how those effects worked with critters.

[InvaderStych]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Which describes most of the Praetorian experience, as I recall.  Giant rooms full of enemies all spaced out evenly and having only (or just preferring greatly) ranged attacks with enough range to largely ignore the range debuff in Taunt.   

 

[Cries in Tanker]

 

c o  m   b    a     t      t       e        l         e          p           o            r             t             😉

 

2 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Unless Veracor's theory is correct and some of SR's self-buffing powers are being considered as debuffs by the enemy underneath the hood. 

 

Some (maybe all) powers that are based on # mobs in range can notify mobs even if the power doesn't effect them. Hybrid Melee Core does this. Only the Radial (defense) side has the actual taunt. Core notifies though, which means it breaks Hidden. Discovered this at T3 on my Fire/Stone/Blaze stalker.

 

I can't think of anything in /SR that would qualify for that, but I am not overly familiar with the set's inner workings.

Edited March 2, 2023 by InvaderStych

[twozerofoxtrot]

25 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

I can't think of anything in /SR that would qualify for that, but I am not overly familiar with the set's inner workings.

 

Yup that's the mystery and why I'm guessing there is some hidden interaction with Gauntlet/Fury inherent taunt aura (as opposed to actual taunt aura toggles) because SR certainly doesn't taunt mobs on Scraps or Stalkers. 

[Gulbasaur]

5 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

I can't think of anything in /SR that would qualify for that, but I am not overly familiar with the set's inner workings.

The "res goes up as health goes down" mechanic is the only semi-unique thing that SR has (widows share the mechanic). I wonder if that triggers it somehow?

 

Maybe the value/keyword/whatever that tracks the magnitude of the resistance buff is also reused by the threat calculation? Maybe it's confirmation bias? Maybe if that's true can I have a second Bug Stomper badge? Bug Stomp 2: Electric Boogaloo? Bugger Stomperer? 

 

Maybe we need an aggro test like the Pylon Test, the Trapdoor Test and the blast set one that I don't remember the name of. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Gulbasaur

[Snarky]

9 hours ago, tidge said:

the code was tweaked to prevent critters from speeding away from a player at Mach 2 if the critter was disoriented. Prior to that fix, it was obvious that there was something in the AI code that was prioritizing a disoriented enemy to move away from the player who has applied the stun. I have long wondered about the "desire to run" behavior that supersedes all else... it's been part of the game since launch (those Atlas Park purse snatchers).

 

I know nothing about the code.  But in my years of casual observation....

 

It looks to me like some Dev early in the game attempted to give the PvE enemies a subroutine to "get out of the debuff patch"  It may or may not be the same or related code to "get out of the fire patch"  

 

Now, with my current Dark Dark Dark Corr this provides entertainment when I drop my (-to hit/-dam) toggle on an enemy.  You cannot outrun it.  Yet they try.  Rom trying to outrun it is right out of a Warner Bros cartoon.  I have triggered a few other AVs with it, Freakshow Tanks, LB EBS etc....

Edited March 2, 2023 by Snarky

[Mjolnerd]

I also know nothing of the code, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were deliberate -- if there were some line in there that made one in a hundred or one in two hundred or whatever enemies just break and run by design for the sake of spice and/or challenge and/or immersion. Older versions of Dungeons & Dragons used to have "morale checks" during combat so that if certain things occurred, you'd roll some dice, and every once in a while an NPC combatant would just say "eff this, I'm not dying here" and leave.

 

Yes, we all have expectations as players of a video game, and we need to suspend our disbelief to a point in order for the game to function properly, but with regard the fictional reality presented within that game -- its' "kayfabe," so to speak (he said, sliding his glasses up the bridge of his nose with one finger), Castle wasn't wrong. If I'm standing in fire, my first response is going to be to, you know, not do that. And if there's a nine-foot angry meat mountain who's the source of that fire, and he's also already reduced thirty-five of my co-workers to paste with his bare hands, then once I've made the decision to run away (either to save myself or to go get help), him saying mean things to me isn't likely to change my mind. And if I'm cornered with no choice but to fight that angry meat mountain, and I have a gun, then no matter how many nasty remarks he makes about my mother I'm absolutely going to stand as far away as I can and shoot instead of getting in nice and close to both stand in fire and be within reach of the bare hands he used to reduce thirty-five of my co-workers to paste.

[Uun]

Director 11 has this power: Tactical Retreat

[ZemX]

20 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

I have specifically scoured almost every map added with GR for herding spots just for this reason. More than you think, but still few and far in between.

 

Oh definitely, I try to corral a few to a pillar or corner or whatever, but more than half the time this gets interrupted by the PuG I'm on.   Usually by some controller using their one favorite power.

[ZemX]

18 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

c o  m   b    a     t      t       e        l         e          p           o            r             t             😉

 

Moving around the room isn't the problem I was describing.  It's how inefficient it is to fight enemies that are that widely spread out and reluctant to gather up.  Really the only fast way to handle it is Fold Space, but I can never justify spending three slots in Teleport pool to have it available early enough in my build.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

Moving around the room isn't the problem I was describing.  It's how inefficient it is to fight enemies that are that widely spread out and reluctant to gather up.  Really the only fast way to handle it is Fold Space, but I can never justify spending three slots in Teleport pool to have it available early enough in my build.

i would love to have fold space.  one issue, after taking nearly every power in Dark Dark Dark on my Corruptor i have room for 1) flight 2) hasten

[Gulbasaur]

On 3/2/2023 at 10:46 PM, Snarky said:

i would love to have fold space.  one issue, after taking nearly every power in Dark Dark Dark on my Corruptor i have room for 1) flight 2) hasten

I have a dark/dark corruptor and yes. There are a lot of good powers. 

 

I do think Hasten is skippable, though.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Gulbasaur said:

I have a dark/dark corruptor and yes. There are a lot of good powers. 

 

I do think Hasten is skippable, though.

If i skip hasten i have room for one power in my build.  I have taken all dark dark dark except for t1 blast.  What should i take?

[InvaderStych]

On 3/2/2023 at 1:34 PM, ZemX said:

Moving around the room isn't the problem I was describing. 

 

Obviously. 🤣

 

But it is the solution. 😉

[Gulbasaur]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

If i skip hasten i have room for one power in my build.  I have taken all dark dark dark except for t1 blast.  What should i take?

The AoE taunt from the Presence power pool! I personally enjoy tanking on off-brand tanks and dark/dark deals so much ToHit debuff that it's quite good at it with some setup.

 

I am actually a fan of Teleport Target as it's good for shunting lowbies around when running tip missions in Atlas Park because keeping lowboes alive is its own challenge mode. That makes a bit more sense with Vengeance so you can use their corpses as healing reagents, but that involves a bit of investment and Dark already has a strong heal. 

 

Combat Teleport or whatever it is works well because you can port in, drop some AoEs like Blackstar, teleport back with macro then start hitting the cones. If you set the macro to go just under your max range you can use it for positioning very well and dark dark likes positioning.

 

Hmm. Combat Jumping or Hover are good basic Defence buffs, which you probably don't need.

 

[Snarky]

10 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

The AoE taunt from the Presence power pool! I personally enjoy tanking on off-brand tanks and dark/dark deals so much ToHit debuff that it's quite good at it with some setup.

 

I am actually a fan of Teleport Target as it's good for shunting lowbies around when running tip missions in Atlas Park because keeping lowboes alive is its own challenge mode. That makes a bit more sense with Vengeance so you can use their corpses as healing reagents, but that involves a bit of investment and Dark already has a strong heal. 

 

Combat Teleport or whatever it is works well because you can port in, drop some AoEs like Blackstar, teleport back with macro then start hitting the cones. If you set the macro to go just under your max range you can use it for positioning very well and dark dark likes positioning.

 

Hmm. Combat Jumping or Hover are good basic Defence buffs, which you probably don't need.

 

Honestly i would love to squeeze in the TP pool.  I am even considering it.  I am stubborn and hard headed (i know you folks do not believe that, but it is true) but the play style of Dark^3 is so powerful and nuanced it is taking me in directions I normally do not go.  I could drop Hasten and Black Hole (Yes, I took it.  Shut up.  Every once in a while it is useful.  When I remember I have it....)  I would still need to drop a third power to get Fold Space.  Dark Consumption could be dropped, i use it randomly as a ghetto AoE mostly.... (I have built a near bulletproof Blue Bar because I run Darkest Night quite a lot.)

 

When you Fold Space do they attack you immediately? Or are they stunned?  I need just a couple seconds to ruin their lives, but I am squishy until my attack chain starts. Afterwards they cannot hit a barn wall with a machine gun from ten feet.

 

My go to attack chain on large mobs is.... 1a) I always have AoE stun toggle Oppressive Gloom running 1b) drop Dark Pit AoE stun.  Mag 2 + Mag 2 = Mag 4 stun.  There's the warm up and a little breathing room. 2) Soul Drain. 3) Tar Patch. 4) Blackstar.  5) At this point I normally joust backwards and Fear cone for more to hit debuff and some random mez work. Fearsome Stare. If I had the Teleport pool (and kept fly) this would be 5a) Combat Teleport (hot keyed backward?) 5b) Fearsome Stare.  After that my main attack chain is done.  I will maybe Darkest Night a AV/Boss, or ST anything annoying, or if there are still a ton of mobs in the killing field start cleaning the Cone Zone. (Night Fall, Tenebrous Tentacles, Torrent, Fearsome Stare again. This debuffs, KDs, and Scourges quite a bit). Then reevaluate and adjust strategy and tactics.

[tidge]

I have not delved deep into the Teleportation pool since the Homecoming revamp of travel powers. I try to take Combat Teleport on Melee/PBAoE characters, its just that I dislike (personal) Teleport as a travel power, and the rest of the powers strike me as very situational. I appreciate when teammates can pop us around! It can be a fun pool to experiment with.

 

I really like the Presence pool, but the Provoke is a solid meh. It requires Accuracy slotting, and it's target cap is well below a x8 spawn size. The first three powers in the Presence pool all have limited utility IMO, but the last two are awesome powers that (with enough recharge) can pay off (again, for characters in close combat). I do not recommend taking Provoke as a means of trying to generate Threat, unless you plan to use the rest of the Presence pool. A player can generate threat (and have other useful effects) by using other pools. For example, Force of Will includes a ranged debuff, a ranged ST attack, a ranged cone attack, and a PBAoE knockdown.

[Uun]

6 hours ago, Snarky said:

If i skip hasten i have room for one power in my build.  I have taken all dark dark dark except for t1 blast.  What should i take?

Teleport Target. Useful for rezzing teammates with Howling Twilight without having to find their corpse. It's not clear in the power description, but the corpse needs to be near you (not your target) in order to be rezzed.