Scale Exemplar Enhancements Values better

[Arbegla]

Now that we can slot SOs at level 1, can we have the exemplar values for Enhancement values looked at and maybe adjusted? I know before the enhancement values when exemplar-ing were meant to simulate running on TOs and DOs, but with the fact that those don't really exist anymore, can we get the scales adjusted to compensate?

 

It feels weird that my level 50 character exemplared down to level 9 has worst enhancement values then a true level 9 character does..

[Astralock]

Your level 50 character most likely has a ton of IO enhancement set bonuses to compensate, unlike a true level 9 character.

[Arbegla]

Just now, Astralock said:

Your level 50 character most likely has a ton of IO enhancement set bonuses to compensate, unlike a true level 9 character.

 

IO set bonuses only work if you attune the sets (or use PvP/Purple IOs) and most don't go down to pre-level 10.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

It feels weird that my level 50 character exemplared down to level 9 has worst enhancement values then a true level 9 character does..

 

Including the default slots in Rest, Brawl, Sprint, Swift, Hurdle, Health and Stamina, the level 9 character has 21 possibilities for slotting enhancements.  Your level 50 character has 98.

 

It's fine.

[srmalloy]

36 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Including the default slots in Rest, Brawl, Sprint, Swift, Hurdle, Health and Stamina, the level 9 character has 21 possibilities for slotting enhancements.  Your level 50 character has 98.

A level-9 character is still getting part of the low-level to-hit boost, and taking a power two-slotted with even-level Damage, that's a 66% damage boost. A level-50 character exemped to 9 has the same power five-slotted with a damage set giving 96% damage boost; factoring in the exemplar scaling, it gets reduced to 21%.They will likely have an extra attack or two, but assuming that they have 96% damage boost for their attacks, they're doing 73% the damage of a native level-9 character. Exemp down to 2, and your level-2 character with a nice shiny level-5 damage SO is getting a 38% damage boost, while a 50 exemped to 2 (using the same values as above) is getting 4% — doing just 53% of the damage the level-2 character does.

 

The exemplar enhancement scaling worked more or less okay for balancing when sub-level-10 characters were running around with TOs, but now that characters can slot SOs straight out of the tutorial, exemping down to low levels gimps the exemped character in comparison. Analyzing the scaling and deciding how the scaling factors should change will be complicated, but I think that it does need to be looked at -- how much the other enhancement values associated with slotting most of a set (for the level-9 example, ca. 12% Acc and 8% Recharge and End) affect the balance complicates the determination -- but the point of exemplar is for the higher-level character to be somewhat more powerful than the low-level one, not the other way around.

[kelika2]

Also you get to keep your powers up until level 14

[Arbegla]

11 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

A level-9 character is still getting part of the low-level to-hit boost, and taking a power two-slotted with even-level Damage, that's a 66% damage boost. A level-50 character exemped to 9 has the same power five-slotted with a damage set giving 96% damage boost; factoring in the exemplar scaling, it gets reduced to 21%.They will likely have an extra attack or two, but assuming that they have 96% damage boost for their attacks, they're doing 73% the damage of a native level-9 character. Exemp down to 2, and your level-2 character with a nice shiny level-5 damage SO is getting a 38% damage boost, while a 50 exemped to 2 (using the same values as above) is getting 4% — doing just 53% of the damage the level-2 character does.

 

The exemplar enhancement scaling worked more or less okay for balancing when sub-level-10 characters were running around with TOs, but now that characters can slot SOs straight out of the tutorial, exemping down to low levels gimps the exemped character in comparison. Analyzing the scaling and deciding how the scaling factors should change will be complicated, but I think that it does need to be looked at -- how much the other enhancement values associated with slotting most of a set (for the level-9 example, ca. 12% Acc and 8% Recharge and End) affect the balance complicates the determination -- but the point of exemplar is for the higher-level character to be somewhat more powerful than the low-level one, not the other way around.

 

This is exactly my point. Its not about slots, or available powers, its about the enhancement values themselves being so much less then what a normal, native low level character would have.

[Luminara]

28 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

characters can slot SOs straight out of the tutorial

 

Has any of the content been revised to increase the difficulty in response to SO availability at level 1?  Has any new content been added with higher than standard difficulty at beginner levels?

 

The answer to both questions is, "No."  The difficulty of existing beginner content hasn't changed, no new beginner content has been added since before the original servers were shut down.

 

Is there, then, any content which precludes the participation of exemplared characters due to enhancement devaluation?

The answer to that question is also, "No."

 

So really, the only justification for this is "'cuz lowbies get SOs", and that justification only works if we ignore that an exemplared 50 has more slots, more powers, access to enhancements which can only be slotted at level 50 (whether or not the player uses those enhancements, they still exist and the system was designed to account for their use), and the complete and utter lack of any actual need for this change, since exemplared characters have proven to perform more than adequately.

 

Yeah, no.

[Arbegla]

12 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Has any of the content been revised to increase the difficulty in response to SO availability at level 1?  Has any new content been added with higher than standard difficulty at beginner levels?

 

The answer to both questions is, "No."  The difficulty of existing beginner content hasn't changed, no new beginner content has been added since before the original servers were shut down.

 

Is there, then, any content which precludes the participation of exemplared characters due to enhancement devaluation?

The answer to that question is also, "No."

 

So really, the only justification for this is "'cuz lowbies get SOs", and that justification only works if we ignore that an exemplared 50 has more slots, more powers, access to enhancements which can only be slotted at level 50 (whether or not the player uses those enhancements, they still exist and the system was designed to account for their use), and the complete and utter lack of any actual need for this change, since exemplared characters have proven to perform more than adequately.

 

Yeah, no.

 

One could argue that both the Freakish Lab of Dr. Valz, and the other 'newer' content which aren't level 50 could be 'beginner content'. Basically all of the story arcs that have been added to the game require your to exemplar down, unless its hard mode content, and then that is level 50 only.

The justification is because TOs don't actually exist as a drop anymore, and the enhancement devaluation puts you lower then DOs, which do drop for content. Its a matter of 'My character actually has WORSE enhancement values as an exemplar then it did at the same native level' not a 'cuz lowbies get SOs now..' though that is definitely a factor in the suggestion.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I agree, get rid of SOs below level 25 and replace them with something weaker newbies can train up with.  I'm sure they can come up with a good name for them.

[Rudra]

48 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

One could argue that both the Freakish Lab of Dr. Valz, and the other 'newer' content which aren't level 50 could be 'beginner content'. Basically all of the story arcs that have been added to the game require your to exemplar down, unless its hard mode content, and then that is level 50 only.

The justification is because TOs don't actually exist as a drop anymore, and the enhancement devaluation puts you lower then DOs, which do drop for content. Its a matter of 'My character actually has WORSE enhancement values as an exemplar then it did at the same native level' not a 'cuz lowbies get SOs now..' though that is definitely a factor in the suggestion.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

The Freakish Lab of Dr. Vahizlok is a level 30-39 arc. How can you call that "beginner content"?

 

Edit: And since it is level 30-39, when you exemplar for it, you are level 39 with powers up to level 44 and all your set bonuses.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Rudra

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

One could argue that both the Freakish Lab of Dr. Valz, and the other 'newer' content which aren't level 50 could be 'beginner content'.

 

One could, if one were willing to stretch the definition of "beginner content" beyond the breaking point.  Level 20 is where the training ends, and they haven't added any sub-20 content.

 

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

The justification is because TOs don't actually exist as a drop anymore, and the enhancement devaluation puts you lower then DOs,

 

You have better endurance management than the lowbie.  You have a more robust attack chain than the lowbie.  You have a wider variety of enhancements slotted in your powers than the lowbie.  You stop less often, you attack more frequently, your powers do more across the board.  Lowbies having SOs instead of TOs didn't change anything for your exemplared characters, so why change exemplaring?

[srmalloy]

On 3/16/2023 at 1:52 PM, Luminara said:

So really, the only justification for this is "'cuz lowbies get SOs", and that justification only works if we ignore that an exemplared 50 has more slots, more powers, access to enhancements which can only be slotted at level 50 (whether or not the player uses those enhancements, they still exist and the system was designed to account for their use), and the complete and utter lack of any actual need for this change, since exemplared characters have proven to perform more than adequately.

Or, on the other hand, you can argue that, since the exemplar enhancement scaling was designed to scale high-level characters to a reasonable approximation of low-level characters slotting TOs, while leaving the exemplared characters somewhat more powerful than the low-level characters, giving the low-level characters a 4x increase in the effectiveness of the enhancements they can slot without looking at what effect this has on the intended advantage exemplared characters would have over low-level characters, the scaling factors when exemplared should be looked at to preserve the relative position of an exemplared character as something that the low-level character can aspire to, rather than being able to look at them and laugh at how their damage is gimped compared to themselves.

[Luminara]

15 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Or, on the other hand, you can argue that, since the exemplar enhancement scaling was designed to scale high-level characters to a reasonable approximation of low-level characters slotting TOs, while leaving the exemplared characters somewhat more powerful than the low-level characters, giving the low-level characters a 4x increase in the effectiveness of the enhancements they can slot without looking at what effect this has on the intended advantage exemplared characters would have over low-level characters, the scaling factors when exemplared should be looked at to preserve the relative position of an exemplared character as something that the low-level character can aspire to, rather than being able to look at them and laugh at how their damage is gimped compared to themselves.

 

That's still not a case for necessity.  You have yet to offer any evidence that exemplared characters need this.  The fact is, you can't, because they don't.  This isn't a question of adequate performance, it's dick measuring with a micrometer.  Worse, it's doing that measurement in a vacuum, ignoring everything else the exemplared character has and can do, that the exemplared character is more rounded and fleshed out in every way.

 

Okay, so the lowbie deals a few more points of damage with the same attack that the exemplared character uses.  Let's disregard the fact that the exemplared character has a stronger attack, one which is unavailable to the lowbie because he/she hasn't leveled up enough to acquire it.  Let's sweep under the rug the fact that the exemplared character's powers are recharging more quickly than the lowbie's, because he/she has enhanced values that the lowbie can't have due to lack of slots.  Let's just overlook the fact that the exemplared character has better endurance management, better HP management, better damage mitigation and a better hit rate than the lowbie can hope to achieve because he/she has more powers, more slots and more enhancements.  Let's panic and scream for the developers to change the system, so that one fucking number is the same, because that's what matters, right?  Not who's better in every way, but who has the bigger number on one power that the exemplared character might not even use because he/she has better tools to work with.

 

No.

[srmalloy]

48 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Let's disregard the fact that the exemplared character has a stronger attack,

...which is also scaled by exemplar to be doing less damage than a comparable attack by the lowbie.

 

50 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Let's panic and scream for the developers to change the system, so that one fucking number is the same, because that's what matters, right? 

Straw man fallacy. Attributing an extreme position and then attacking it.  "Let's panic and scream that everyone asking for the developers to look at how examplar scaling works because the floor was raised for low-level characters without considering that this change scales exemplared characters below that floor, because they have the absolute fucking temerity to ask that it be put into consideration for a future change, instead of blindly accepting that what is is the One True Fucking Way and cannot be questioned." See, I can do it, too. It's clear at this point that there is no further ability for rational discourse on this topic, and it needs to be closed. Both sides have presented their arguments, and the HC staff can look at everything that was presented and decide whether the issue warrants examination for a possible change.

[Rudra]

The issue I have with the OP is that exemplared characters still have more enhancements than the lower level character, have more powers than the lower level character, and can already sleep their way through all the lower level content while exemplared. I don't see what the OP is supposed to fix.

 

Edit: Is the request to make already very powerful characters even more powerful? To what end? As exemplared characters they are already more powerful than the lower level content they are exemplaring down to was designed for, and the missions have not been made more difficult by any patches.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Rudra

[Luminara]

47 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

...which is also scaled by exemplar to be doing less damage than a comparable attack by the lowbie.

 

The lowbie doesn't have the comparable attack.  The lowbie doesn't have the comparable mez.  The lowbie doesn't have the comparable damage mitigation power.  The comparable power is 1-5 levels above the lowbie's native level, he/she hasn't gained access to it yet.

 

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

this change scales exemplared characters below that floor

 

The floor hasn't changed.  No content was made more difficult to compensate for wider SO availability.  No new content with increased difficulty was added in the relevant level range.  Nothing is harder because lowbies can use SOs now.

 

The exemplared character has powers +5 to the exemplared level.  Those powers have more slots.  Those slots have a wider range of enhancements in them.  The exemplared character can use his/her powers more frequently, expends less endurance when using those powers, does more with those powers than the lowbie can.  You keep trying to omit these facts, and they are facts, from the equation.  You tout a few extra points of damage in the lowbie's attack, and ignore that the exemplared character is using the same attack more frequently.  You point to a lowbie mez that lasts a second longer and disregard that the exemplared character's mez's faster recharge time more than compensates for that second.  You insist that the lowbie's damage mitigation is better, but don't look at the endurance cost.  Over and over again, you focus on one thing, a single number, and proclaim that there should be parity, but utterly refuse to acknowledge the exemplared character's significantly better slotting and larger pool of available powers and how these bring that parity.

 

The exemplar mechanic isn't going to be improved by making enhancement scaling match SO values, all that would do is make exemplared characters overpowered.

[TheZag]

Im not sure how often people exemplar if they are thinking lowbies with SOs are better than high level players with attuned sets.  My high level characters roflstomp low level content in a way that my SO lowbies can only dream about.  I can run into any +4x8 spawn and endlessly spam what attacks i have access to and never even look at my health because it never moves.

 

Lets place bets on a team of 8 lowbies on SOs against 8 incarnates on any low level task force.  I can tell you that my money goes on the exemplared incarnates every time.  Its true the raw values of the enhancements scale below SO levels but the set bonuses,  additional slots,  and powers from +5 levels will more than make up the difference.

 

[Gobbledygook]

Wait, people slot enhancements before 22?

[Major_Decoy]

11 minutes ago, Gobbledygook said:

Wait, people slot enhancements before 22?

Oh, yeah. You can slot Steadfast resistance, Gladiator's Armour, and Panacea all at level 7. Then the archetype enhancements at 10.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

Oh, yeah. You can slot Steadfast resistance, Gladiator's Armour, and Panacea all at level 7. Then the archetype enhancements at 10.

You can slot all the PvP sets at level 7. It's one of the things that makes them so valuable. Fury of the Gladiator, Gladiator's Armor, Gladiator's Javelin, Gladiator's Net, Gladiator's Strike, Javelin Volley, Panacea, and Shield Wall. And like very rare IO sets, they grant their set bonuses regardless of what level you exemplar to.

 

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/PvP_IO_Sets

 

So between the PvP IO sets and the very rare IO sets, you can slot your character to never lose set bonuses. Especially since the PvP IO sets are not unique.

[Major_Decoy]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

You can slot all the PvP sets at level 7. It's one of the things that makes them so valuable. Fury of the Gladiator, Gladiator's Armor, Gladiator's Javelin, Gladiator's Net, Gladiator's Strike, Javelin Volley, Panacea, and Shield Wall. And like very rare IO sets, they grant their set bonuses regardless of what level you exemplar to.

 

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/PvP_IO_Sets

 

So between the PvP IO sets and the very rare IO sets, you can slot your character to never lose set bonuses. Especially since the PvP IO sets are not unique.

Yes, but the level 10 enhancement bonuses aren't really exciting and set bonuses at level 7... well, you've only got 6 additional slots. But Steadfast Resistance and Gladiator's Armour's +3 Defense and Panacea: chance for +health and +endurance are all nice benefits at any level. Regenerative Tissue's +25% health regeneration can be slotted at level 10 too, but Miracle, Performance Shifter, and Preventative Medicine aren't available until level 17, and Numina's Convalescence is 27.

 

And the "Doesn't matter what level you exemplar to" feature of PVP sets is much more exciting with level 50 enhancements than it is with level 10 enhancements.

[Seed22]

On 3/16/2023 at 1:57 PM, Luminara said:

 

Including the default slots in Rest, Brawl, Sprint, Swift, Hurdle, Health and Stamina, the level 9 character has 21 possibilities for slotting enhancements.  Your level 50 character has 98.

 

It's fine.

They're asking, I believe, for the SO Enh VALUES to be made parodied of IOs(i.e, something something +38% end reduction idk. I don't have spreadsheets :P) without any of the additional doo-dads. Not more slots. I personally would like that as well for our non IO'ed brethren. I've had to remember, it isn't as easy to just pick up n go. Lot of us vets have stashes upon stashes of useless things, but they've yet to participate in the probably unhealthy hoarding practices of CoH players 😛 

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Seed22

[Rudra]

5 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

Yes, but the level 10 enhancement bonuses aren't really exciting and set bonuses at level 7... well, you've only got 6 additional slots. But Steadfast Resistance and Gladiator's Armour's +3 Defense and Panacea: chance for +health and +endurance are all nice benefits at any level. Regenerative Tissue's +25% health regeneration can be slotted at level 10 too, but Miracle, Performance Shifter, and Preventative Medicine aren't available until level 17, and Numina's Convalescence is 27.

 

And the "Doesn't matter what level you exemplar to" feature of PVP sets is much more exciting with level 50 enhancements than it is with level 10 enhancements.

I was clarifying your statement about sets available at level 10. With the addition of the PvP set bonuses always being avilable regardless of level. So a level 50 exemplared down to level 1 would still enjoy all their set bonuses from the purple sets and the PvP IO sets. As compared to the level 1's nothing. Shift the scale to any exemplar level and you run into the same thing. The exemplared 50 retains all enhancement bonuses even if scaled, all PvP and purple set bonuses regardless of level, all other set bonuses as long as the exemplared character is no more than 3 levels below the IO's minimum level, and +5 levels of powers. As compared to whatever the lower level character has leveled up to and managed to slot. So I am agreeing with you, just adding more information.

 

4 hours ago, Seed22 said:

They're asking, I believe, for the SO Enh VALUES to be made parodied of IOs(i.e, something something +38% end reduction idk. I don't have spreadsheets :P) without any of the additional doo-dads. Not more slots. I personally would like that as well for our non IO'ed brethren. I've had to remember, it isn't as easy to just pick up n go. Lot of us vets have stashes upon stashes of useless things, but they've yet to participate in the probably unhealthy hoarding practices of CoH players 😛 

 

No, they are asking for the exemplared IO values to get boosted to match SO enhancement strength. Which as has already been pointed out multiple times, is completely unnecessary for the exemplared character to still show up the at level lower level character and clear the lower level content with ease.

[Doomguide2005]

Various thoughts:

• Inspirations both quantity and strength
• Time spent under level 20 relatively trivial
• at lvl 21+ can frankkenslot potentially suffering NO reduction in aspect enhancement and still be gaining set bonuses (if any)
• Significant disparity in slots placed.  Sure I could put 2 or 3 SO damage, but then the exemplar has 3 or 4 slots of other enhancements to further boost aspects of the power possibly w/o reduction in % boost depending on IO levels
• The only time it gets really out of whack is comparing an all SO lvl 50 exemplar with the all SO lowbie

I've never found my exemplars to be anywhere near to being outshined by a true low level character