Pets die to fast

[Nyghtmaire]

7 minutes ago, StrikerFox said:

Imo, secondaries shouldn't be included when trying to figure out what individual primaries are capable of. A secondary should be included when testing an overall build.

I don’t think I could keep pets alive without my secondary! I’ll have to try hahaha

 

(Necro/dark post i27.5 using secondary - 73 seconds or 653.1 DPS. T4 Inituition - radial, Barrier - core used once before engagement, Reactive - radial, Support - core slotted not active)

[Gobbledigook]

53 minutes ago, StrikerFox said:

 

Post i27.5, Merc pets defeated a pylon in 106s for 490 dps without the secondary. Serum wasn't used either (74s/645 dps with Serum and Tar Patch). Pre-i27.5, Ninjas defeated a pylon in 119 for 450 dps without use of the secondary or Smoke Flash (84s/584 dps with Tar patch and Smoke Flash). They would likely do better now with added crit chance.

 

Imo, secondaries shouldn't be included when trying to figure out what individual primaries are capable of. A secondary should be included when testing an overall build.

 

Like I said MM's are a jack of all trades; master of none. They technically have AoE damage. It's not the best but it's not that bad. Pets constantly attacking multiple targets VS Dragon's Tail with a small radius or Shield Charge with a 25s cooldown for example. They all have pros and cons.

They are decent times yes. I did find Mercs seemed to do better single target dps than Bots. But as i said i wasn't really disputing single target damage so much but rather the AoE. Although i didn't find the single target spectacular either, (especially when they are flailing on the ground),  but then i have not procced them out like i said. This game is far more than taking down a Pylon though.

 

You may say they are a Jack of all trades but they take a ton of maintenance are slow and when they get knocked on their ass they sometimes never get back up unless you dismiss them and re summon. They can achieve a decent number on a stationary target but they are very clunky to use. I run ahead with sprint only and turn around and pets are no where in sight. They have AoE but it just seems very poor indeed.

 

I do use the pet binds.

 

But as i said the Trapdoor test gives really bad results from what i see. Why is that? A Jack of all Trades should be able to pull a decent figure there surely. How do the pets, especially melee, survive in a 4* for example?

 

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[StrikerFox]

57 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

They are decent times yes. I did find Mercs seemed to do better single target dps than Bots. But as i said i wasn't really disputing single target damage so much but rather the AoE. Although i didn't find the single target spectacular either, (especially when they are flailing on the ground),  but then i have not procced them out like i said. This game is far more than taking down a Pylon though.

 

You may say they are a Jack of all trades but they take a ton of maintenance are slow and when they get knocked on their ass they sometimes never get back up unless you dismiss them and re summon. They can achieve a decent number on a stationary target but they are very clunky to use. I run ahead with sprint only and turn around and pets are no where in sight. They have AoE but it just seems very poor indeed.

 

I do use the pet binds.

 

But as i said the Trapdoor test gives really bad results from what i see. Why is that? A Jack of all Trades should be able to pull a decent figure there surely. How do the pets, especially melee, survive in a 4* for example?

 

 

 

Jack of all trades doesn't mean they're perfect. We all know the drawbacks of slow pets, horrible AI and level shifts. We all know MMs won't be tanking a Hamidon. We all know MMs won't heal as well as a Defender. We all know a MM won't mez as well as a Controller. But we know a MM can heal better than a Scrapper. A MM can out damage a Sentinel. A MM can tank better than a Corruptor. 

 

I can't really comment on the TD tests. I haven't seen video, primary/secondary, the builds, the playstyle from each player. Pets are slow and their AI is wonky. T1 pets probably get decimated. There are a lot of factors on why they perform poorly in TD testing. 

 

I skimmed the TD thread and only found the one MM run. The pets had trouble dropping down each level of the map. Others commented that the TD is bad for pet testing as their AI is atrocious. There's probably an AE mission that would be a better all round test for ATs.

 

MMs being a higher maintenance AT is part of the baggage. 

[Ashford]

The general issue with MM is not necessarily that the minions are squishy. For new players trying a MM the biggest issue comes down to how a minion plays because the more erratic or melee centric the AI is, the more the player has to micromanage.

 

For example, someone would reccomend something along the lines of demon/dark for their first build or thugs. Issue is, these minions are more higher maitanence as both suffer the issue of trying to do everything and/or going in to face tanks the damage. Meanwhile, bots and mercs would be more newb freindly as they for the most part keep a distance.

 

The secondary problem with MM builds is that really when the cards are down, the secondaries are all hit and miss. Dark for example focuses on -to hit debuff, slows, sustain, and has an extra minion, but if the focus is on not getting hit FF does a far better of a job. However, FF doesn't add anything damage wise or heals. Every secondary comes with a trade off that really doesn't make them as great as they can be.

 

for new players, that translates to a very unfun experience while leveling. So, generally what would be a good start? distance focus AI minions, and just a simple secondary that focuses on sustain/support so nature, FF, time which works great for minions that stay close anyway, etc.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Ashford

[Gobbledigook]

7 hours ago, Ashford said:

The general issue with MM is not necessarily that the minions are squishy. For new players trying a MM the biggest issue comes down to how a minion plays because the more erratic or melee centric the AI is, the more the player has to micromanage.

 

For example, someone would reccomend something along the lines of demon/dark for their first build or thugs. Issue is, these minions are more higher maitanence as both suffer the issue of trying to do everything and/or going in to face tanks the damage. Meanwhile, bots and mercs would be more newb freindly as they for the most part keep a distance.

 

The secondary problem with MM builds is that really when the cards are down, the secondaries are all hit and miss. Dark for example focuses on -to hit debuff, slows, sustain, and has an extra minion, but if the focus is on not getting hit FF does a far better of a job. However, FF doesn't add anything damage wise or heals. Every secondary comes with a trade off that really doesn't make them as great as they can be.

 

for new players, that translates to a very unfun experience while leveling. So, generally what would be a good start? distance focus AI minions, and just a simple secondary that focuses on sustain/support so nature, FF, time which works great for minions that stay close anyway, etc.

I did find having +defence rather than +resists made the pets tougher. Better to not get hit at all rather than trying to soak up the damage that the pets just don't have the health for. If i were to make another MM it would be Mercs/Cold or Bots/cold. Good defense and debuffs for extra damage, i just wish it had speed boost also.

 

Increasing the run speed so they keep up or shorten the distance before they teleport to you would make life easier also. That was one of the most annoyiing things for me, waiting for the pets to arrive.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[tidge]

Masterminds are an AT that can't enjoy "Scrapperlock" nor can it "roflstomp" missions like other AT... it doesn't make them bad, it literally just requires a playstyle that doesn't often make sense for other ATs. On a team with other ATs that are playing quicker, MMS will feel less useful... but changing the playstyle to match the other ATs is chosing to play in a way that isn't typically suited for MMs. Solo MMs still have to deal damage to complete missions, collect INF/drops, but they have to do it in a different way.

 

As has been pointed out in this thread, and many other places, a MM does its magic via the henchmen (who are not pets), most of which will have a 'negative level penalty' relative to the MM. The henchmen have to be slotted to address the level shift... if you don't believe me, try running a +2 mission (through Ouroboros) on any other AT with "Enhancements have no effect" to get a sense of what the T1 henchmen are facing at even-level content (for the MM)... it gets worse when the MM scales up difficulty levels!

 

With the above in mind, MMs have to consider several different things to maximize their performance (or DPS, if you prefer to think in those terms), listed in roughly the order I would rank them from most important to least (all are important!):

• The enemies have to be debuffed, to do less damage and to take more damage (via -Def and/or -Res)
• The henchmen have to be buffed, in order to hit and to do damage
• The henchmen have to live through fights (in order of usefulness: +Def, +Res, and way behind IMO are +Healing and respawning)

Henchmen can also be 'kept alive' via other actions by the MM, in rough order of value (as judged by me):

1. MM attacks, preferably AoE, preferably with a debuff of some kind, to get and keep aggro on the MM
2. MM pets (not henchmen) and pseudopets which will occupy the attention of enemy mob(ile)s during fights.
3. MM effects (Enhancement IOs for defense/resist... don't forget Supremacy also boosts levels shifts for Incarnate content in addition to standard Accuracy and Damage boosts)
4. Provoke (I find this to be almost completely useless in practice, because it requires Accuracy slotting and has such a small target cap... yet many players still recommend it so I include it here) to try to directly keep aggro on the MM.

I have a general opinion that MMs simply won't appear to be as useful on typical teams/leagues because of the nature of how the AT completes its goals. I have found MMs to shine in certain team situations:

• During invasion events: target through henchmen (or pets), as the server-side AI detects valid targets before the client-side can detect them!
• When a team is getting over-run, pull the henchmen close to the MM and switch to Bodyguard/Defensive mode. I've had MMs survive what would have been a TPK simply by holding fast in tight quarters.
• Henchmen can be dispatched to attack distant enemies... either ones that are running or against a new spawn if no one else in the group can take the alpha strike/holds (Positron 2 TF is content that demonstrates this pretty well IMO, but it isn't the only content)

[Crysis]

At lower levels...heck, sometimes at higher levels if you are soloing....you really have to learn how to pull so you can keep your henchmen in a tight little ball and just lure the numbers of opponents they can handle around a corner to ambush them.  This is where the various MM keybinds become really helpful.  Put your pets on Stay/Passive around a corner, you run in and aggro some baddies, then come back to the henchmen murder ball and flip them to Defensive or Aggressive.  You'll seldom lose any pets doing this, although it can be tedious.  But on some maps where the spawns are so close together you otherwise have a difficult time because you+pets pull too much aggro.

 

Honestly, having played dozens of MM's to 50, I consider the keybinds to be -the secret- to playing the class effectively and keeping everything alive.  It's critical and too few players understand that aspect of the AT.

 

 

[Arbegla]

Imma just leave this here.

 

[Nyghtmaire]

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

Imma just leave this here.

 

That’s some epic “hold my beer” stuff. Love it!

[kelika2]

TLDR you need to get your gets to 45% def either through raw defense stacking or -tohit debuffing

Softcapped pets are happy pets.  There is nothing better for you as a mastermind to do than getting your pets softcapped however the hell it is possible.

 

/radiation has some very small ass radius on their debuffs.  I believe it is only 15ft.  and if i am right on how i think radiuseses work, thats melee range all around your anchor.  7.5ft in all directions.  check other radius from other sets to see how small radiations range is.  dark and trick arrow are worth noting

 

Some masterminds require expensive builds and level 50 with a firefarming account powering you to max level.  Cytoskeleton hamis in Enforcers can bump them up to 20-24% def to all.  thug-cold/trap/dark/etc shines super hard when your enforcers are giving off a ton of defense working with your buffs or debuffs.  on the flip side, if you go thug/ff you will be way over defense softcap and no snare/slow pit.  every single one of the combos you listed do not synergize well.

 

Forget necro as whole or get some thicker skin while playing it.  i tried necro/ff, necro/dark, necro/thermal and /ff only really works because of mace mastery's power boost bringing them to defense softcap.  necros innate resists are rare damage types leveling up and hard to synergize with any secondary.  i had to adopt team teleport on my necro/dark to really move that dark servant around with its gigantic -tohit aura.  teleport target is also a thing for the servant

beast/nature reroll into beast/cold.  adopt a tundra like avatar and go with it.  beasts innate defenses with iceshields+fog+maneuvers is good times.

thugs you have so many things to work with here.  thug/trick arrow to keep up the natural crap while still having flash arrow at level 1, glue arrow at 2 and the fabled oil slick arrow.  thug/traps, thug/dark.  i can go on but i already typed too much

[tjknight]

So nobody's using combat teleport or slotting the upgrade powers?

[Astralock]

1 hour ago, tjknight said:

So nobody's using combat teleport or slotting the upgrade powers?

 

Slotting upgrade powers, yes.  Combat Teleport, no.  Just no room for the Teleportation power pool on any of my builds.

[tidge]

I've tried a variety of travel pools with MMs, nothing is as satisfying for me as Flight (w/ Group Fly)

 

There was a time (on live, and early HC FWIW) when I felt that the Teleport Pool offer exploration of some peculiar corners of game play(*1), but I still felt it was inferior to simply having all the henchmen and pets in the air.

 

(*1) I think (trying, because ToHit) to teleport enemies to a spot is generally a waste of time, no matter the setup. I would use it as a long range "pull", and I'd use the group teleport options to move (already summoned) henchmen around the map... but I only found these strategies to be useful if I had mission difficulties set WAY too high. I love Combat Teleport, but I simply can't imagine getting it to work for any of my MMs.

[Lancek]

I wish you could stick the Defense/Resist ATOs in the upgrade powers

[TygerDarkstorm]

3 hours ago, Lancek said:

I wish you could stick the Defense/Resist ATOs in the upgrade powers

This actually seems like a good idea with the changes made to the upgrade powers. And would open up slotting options for the primaries with tighter slotting.

[JJDrakken]

On 3/29/2023 at 12:51 PM, Spectre7878 said:

So I have tried really hard to play and love masterminds. I feel the pets just die to fast. Especially against longbow, malta etc. 

 

am I doing something wrong with masterminds? I am ok solos if I play 0x0. 
 

is it just inevitable or is there a way to keep the alive

 

i current have a 

necro/dark

beast/nature

thug/rad

 

There are 3 Recipe sets(1 being your MM Set) that when fully upgraded will give all your pets +45% resistance buff.   Your secondaries will help that along.  For example, Necro/Thermal or a Thugs/Dark, etc...

 

Gotta know what your doing and research recipes. I highly suggest DL'ing Mid's Reborn and taking time to go over things. This basically an MMORPG of math & paying attention to your surroundings.

[Xandyr]

On 3/31/2023 at 5:10 PM, kelika2 said:

TLDR you need to get your gets to 45% def either through raw defense stacking or -tohit debuffing

Softcapped pets are happy pets.  There is nothing better for you as a mastermind to do than getting your pets softcapped however the hell it is possible.

 

/radiation has some very small ass radius on their debuffs.  I believe it is only 15ft.  and if i am right on how i think radiuseses work, thats melee range all around your anchor.  7.5ft in all directions.  check other radius from other sets to see how small radiations range is.  dark and trick arrow are worth noting

 

Some masterminds require expensive builds and level 50 with a firefarming account powering you to max level.  Cytoskeleton hamis in Enforcers can bump them up to 20-24% def to all.  thug-cold/trap/dark/etc shines super hard when your enforcers are giving off a ton of defense working with your buffs or debuffs.  on the flip side, if you go thug/ff you will be way over defense softcap and no snare/slow pit.  every single one of the combos you listed do not synergize well.

 

Forget necro as whole or get some thicker skin while playing it.  i tried necro/ff, necro/dark, necro/thermal and /ff only really works because of mace mastery's power boost bringing them to defense softcap.  necros innate resists are rare damage types leveling up and hard to synergize with any secondary.  i had to adopt team teleport on my necro/dark to really move that dark servant around with its gigantic -tohit aura.  teleport target is also a thing for the servant

beast/nature reroll into beast/cold.  adopt a tundra like avatar and go with it.  beasts innate defenses with iceshields+fog+maneuvers is good times.

thugs you have so many things to work with here.  thug/trick arrow to keep up the natural crap while still having flash arrow at level 1, glue arrow at 2 and the fabled oil slick arrow.  thug/traps, thug/dark.  i can go on but i already typed too much

Don't need PB on FF to get pets to softcap.

[Nyghtmaire]

13 hours ago, Xandyr said:

Don't need PB on FF to get pets to softcap.

Agree that mostly you don’t *need* power boost. There are two immediate benefits though: 1) slot efficiency - allows not slotting the 2 +def pet procs, and 2) overlapping defense as a way to approximate defense debuff protection. The first depends on whether you’re slot or power starved (I’m usually slot starved). The second is more content and difficulty dependent.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Nyghtmaire
Conjunctions

[kelika2]

16 hours ago, Xandyr said:

Don't need PB on FF to get pets to softcap.

for necromancy?

[Nyghtmaire]

7 hours ago, kelika2 said:

for necromancy?

Only for AOE assuming ATO proc. With fully slotted shields and the other defense procs, you can get defense up to ~40.

 

Insulation/Deflection: ~16.5

Dispersion Bubble: ~11

Maneuvers: ~3.8

Edict proc: 5

Call to Arms proc: 5

 

Total: ~40.3

[Xandyr]

I run necro/ff. I have the pet uniques,  and my pets are at 45% defense.  Without power boost.

[Xandyr]

10 hours ago, kelika2 said:

for necromancy?

Yes

[Wavicle]

Adding the Pet Damage and Recharge Intensive Pet specials really helps.

[Xandyr]

17 hours ago, Nyghtmaire said:

Only for AOE assuming ATO proc. With fully slotted shields and the other defense procs, you can get defense up to ~40.

 

Insulation/Deflection: ~16.5

Dispersion Bubble: ~11

Maneuvers: ~3.8

Edict proc: 5

Call to Arms proc: 5

 

Total: ~40.3

 

[Xandyr]

I don't have PB, and you can see that I have my Necro pets at 45.05% Defense.