Focused Feedback: Storm Blast

[Galaxy Brain]

8 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

Cat 5 is a special power though. Even though it holds a place we would traditionally call a 'nuke' it would not be too unlikely to compare it to a Build-Up or even Aim sort of power. It is less about doing damage by itself and more about making your other powers do more damage (that seems to be the intent and a mirroring of Storm Cell but with added bonus damage from Cat 5 itself).

 

This is very much a non traditional way of doing things and thus it cannot be a direct comparison. I'm not going to say it is a good or a bad experiment but it is an experiment on doing things differently.

 

But because it is not a traditional nuke it requires being tested outside of the normal box we put nukes in. This requires actual gameplay tests such as Trapdoors or whathaveyous. In this more complete test encapsulating Storm it does look like it works well (someone posted a three minute Trapdoor with a Blaster).

 

 

If you can muster the energy I would say try a couple Trapdoors (or whatever you might feel like) with that Radiation character and a couple with the Storm and even if it is not super scientific with so few runs but give us the metrics you got from it.

 

 

I agree with this take. @WindDemon21 / @Dispari, its tough to compare Cat 5 to traditional nukes due to the wonky target caps / duration. For example, CoD shows that the Lightning from Cat 5 has a 5 second lockout where it cannot hit the same target again. However that doesn't stop it from striking fresh targets in its radius which is where I edited the last post to show something like the ITF specifically being a great place to use it over normal Nukes.

 

If we are being generous, you can probably proc lightning on average every 2s, making 15 procs total that hit 5 enemies each for 122 damage. Assuming each cast hits a new target somehow, that can total 9,150 damage on top of everything else you are throwing into the mix. On top of enemies dying in the storm and freeing up targets for the remaining DoT / other storm powers.

 

As strong as Atomic Blast is in the last example, it has 1 shot to hit 16 targets where Cat 5 has dozens of hits to spread out over time if you can keep getting targets into the area.

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

 

I agree with this take. @WindDemon21 / @Dispari, its tough to compare Cat 5 to traditional nukes due to the wonky target caps / duration. For example, CoD shows that the Lightning from Cat 5 has a 5 second lockout where it cannot hit the same target again. However that doesn't stop it from striking fresh targets in its radius which is where I edited the last post to show something like the ITF specifically being a great place to use it over normal Nukes.

 

If we are being generous, you can probably proc lightning on average every 2s, making 15 procs total that hit 5 enemies each for 122 damage. Assuming each cast hits a new target somehow, that can total 9,150 damage on top of everything else you are throwing into the mix. On top of enemies dying in the storm and freeing up targets for the remaining DoT / other storm powers.

 

As strong as Atomic Blast is in the last example, it has 1 shot to hit 16 targets where Cat 5 has dozens of hits to spread out over time if you can keep getting targets into the area.

Right don't mistake me, i'm not saying its completely horrid and doesn't have a slightly different use, what i'm saying is that it DOES have those caveats though, and give the ACC issue is a big thing too, I don't think it would be out of line to have it and storm cell have an even higher base acc, and cat 5 having a little shorter rech than normal nukes too at like 150s or so.

[Galaxy Brain]

At a certain point I think its a tradeoff in favor of uniqueness. Cat 5 and Storm Cell trade burst for better performance vs meatier encounters. As an aside, this can allow you to slot powerful procs like Armageddon on another power like Chain Lightning which can go off way more often than in a normal nuke. 

 

There are definitely missions where this setup would shine, and it works fine otherwise as a kit, so I personally dont see a massive issue with it not being as bursty.

[WindDemon21]

11 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

At a certain point I think its a tradeoff in favor of uniqueness. Cat 5 and Storm Cell trade burst for better performance vs meatier encounters. As an aside, this can allow you to slot powerful procs like Armageddon on another power like Chain Lightning which can go off way more often than in a normal nuke. 

 

There are definitely missions where this setup would shine, and it works fine otherwise as a kit, so I personally dont see a massive issue with it not being as bursty.

Right, I agree too, but saying that's part of the tradeoff, but for it to be hit with such an acc issue too is extra bad and definitely a big point of concern, doesn't seem out of realm to boost in addition to little shorter rech, but definitely the acc bump.

[Bellicose]

So, I did get around to testing this set on a Corruptor (Storm/Dark) and a Sentinel (Storm/SR).

I will acknowledge a testing flaw related to my not fully understanding Storm Cell. My first tests were with a blaster and I did slot a full set of Antihalation in it. On that round, I did not suffer from having Storm Cell expire before I cleared out a spawn. On subsequent tests, I may not have slotted Storm Cell sufficiently for damage and accuracy. Since I had a fresh Cell ready for each spawn I decreased it's slotting. That likely accounted for the "why" it was running out before I cleared all the bosses (i.e. it wasn't contributing enough to the task). Better slotting would have resulted in a better clear rate.  I did not make a the same mistake with Cat 5; it was always well slotted.  

I do not see a problem with Storm Cells "movement" (which seems inconsequential to me) or its recharge (decent slotting will have it up often enough).

 

My concern, however, is the sets reliance on it. Without it (on the Defender, Corruptor and Sentinel) clearing the last two bosses was always a bit of a drag. While those two bosses may not have been standing if I had better slotted Storm Cell, it is concerning how big the power down is when it's not active. 

Another thing I noticed is this: I altered my Defender (Storm/Storm) to have Ageless instead of Clarion (and I gave Ageless to both my Corruptor and Sentinel). Without Ageless, I was starved for End. Storm Cell, Cat 5 and Lightning Storm, and Storm Cell, Cat 5 and Tar Patch were both time consuming and End consuming. 

I wouldn't suggest major revisions at this stage; but, a slight decrease to Storm Cells animation time and End cost, coupled with a slight increase to the four ST attacks and the two AoEs wouldn't be an uncalled for observation.  Additionally, someone earlier in the thread suggested swapping the Tier 3 and 4 powers and I think that's a terrific request. 

As for the more specific testing. I did find that the addition of Tar Patch to my combat set-up was a fantastic upgrade. It helped keep the mobs in the Strom Cell longer and allowed it to better do its job while minimizing the chaos. Additionally, the ramp up of damage, coupled with the Corruptor's Scourge was a gem.  Lastly, since the set-up time was such an investment, the Stealth and defense of Shadow Fall was a real help.

The Sentinel played like a Sentinel. I don't have a lot to say on it that I haven't already stated. 

It's all very clicky; and, in the wild will definitely benefit from some Macros.

I'm super curious about the build on that Storm/Cold Corruptor that did the pylon in 1:45. I tried it on mine and got smoked. 

[Dispari]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

Cat 5 is a special power though. Even though it holds a place we would traditionally call a 'nuke' it would not be too unlikely to compare it to a Build-Up or even Aim sort of power. It is less about doing damage by itself and more about making your other powers do more damage (that seems to be the intent and a mirroring of Storm Cell but with added bonus damage from Cat 5 itself).

From all the testing I did it still takes about +50% to twice as long for Storm to clear groups as something like Ice (which isn't even an ideal damage set but is a close comparison because it has patch powers). Needing other powers to make Cat 5 do anything is interesting, but it's not enough to make the set perform well. Ice just kills the minions without you needing to do anything special, so you can just focus down the bosses and everything else will be dead by then. If you play exactly the same way with Storm, it takes longer for everything to die. If you use the AoEs to finish off the minions, all you're doing is playing catchup because Ice already killed them.

Ramping up is a neat concept. Basically all combo sets "ramp up" but then they have a payoff of some sort with a finisher. What does Storm get for the extra work required? What's the payoff? A little bit more damage for fights that last more than 30 seconds, which almost never happens? I'm not even convinced it does more damage "in the long run" since you can't do more damage to things that already died.

As-is, the set does less damage while requiring more effort and has no payoff.

[Wavicle]

7 minutes ago, Dispari said:

takes about +50% to twice as long for Storm to clear groups as something like Ice

That doesn't sound right. Could you possibly post a video? It's a lot to ask, if not I understand.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Wavicle

[Booper]

6 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

Cat 5 lightning = 121.99 dam (per hit, 5 targets. Per CoD, a single target can be hit every 5s so x6 at max)

Just to clarify, the same target can only be hit every 5s. You can certainly proc more often than that to hit other targets.

[Galaxy Brain]

7 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

Blaster with 95% damage enhancement:

 

Cat 5 DoT = 130.14 dam of all hits connect (over 30s, 16 targets)
Cat 5 Eye = 487.98 dam (over 25s, 10 targets)
Cat 5 lightning = 121.99 dam (per hit, 5 targets. Per CoD, a single target can be hit every 5s so x6 at max)

 

Blizzard = 406.65 dam (over 15s, 16 targets, 170s recharge)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blaster

Full auto = 375.8 average damage (over 2.5s, 10 targets, 60s recharge) 

 

Full auto can be used nearly 3x more than Blizzard and Category 5.

 

FA 375.8x10 targets= 3758 damage with roughly x3 casts of Blizzard/Cat 5 = 11274 damage.

Blizzard 406.65x16 targets= 6506 damage

Cat 5 roughly 8k damage all targets, no procs.

 

Is this fairly close? rough attempt @Galaxy Brain

 

 

Pretty close I think! The weirdness with measuring it vs other nukes is that it has different target caps / lockouts it seems depending on the section of it, but when I napkin-mathed it you could probably proc every 2s on average assuming there are enough targets to push 9150 damage or more!

[WindDemon21]

17 minutes ago, Booper said:

Just to clarify, the same target can only be hit every 5s. You can certainly proc more often than that to hit other targets.

Ewww, that seems arbitrary especially again with outside buffs being fairly nonexistent on it and it has to roll a chance on a hit too.

 

Like, I woudln't expect it to be used *mainly* for st damage, but I guess i'm more concerned, is that JUST for the damage, or does that mean the knockdown may only proc once every 5 seconds too?

 

Also, what about adding KD to cloudburst as well, would help give the power more oomph feeling, and not sure if my earlier post was seen about it's animation/cast? Could have sworn there was an update with a new animation and having the cloud instantly form over their head, but when i just logged in again to test, it looks like it's back to the dumb whirlywater animation and and the cloud taking time going from you instead of instantly showing over their head.

[Booper]

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Could have sworn there was an update with a new animation and having the cloud instantly form over their head, but when i just logged in again to test, it looks like it's back to the dumb whirlywater animation and and the cloud taking time going from you instead of instantly showing over their head.

Are you thinking of the recent animation change for Chain Lightning? That used to do a ball toss. I am not aware of a change happening to Cloudburst's animation. If it had happened, it would have been unlikely to revert back.

[Frosticus]

One potential drawback of cat 5 (and storm cell) is the opportunity cost required to get them to do their damage. An ice corruptor can drop blizzard and then do other things like heal/buff/debuff/run away/use epic attacks etc. But a storm corruptor is required to keep attacking (with storm attacks) if they want those powers to perform well. I believe this was taken in to consideration and is why they can do so much extra damage over their duration if maximized.

 

One of the main advantages of the patch based psuedo pets is the ability to use them effective out of line of sight. Ex. Dropping blizzard from around a corner. 

This can be important because the aggro that the dot damamge+debuff aoe powers can pull on to a squishy can be difficult to survive compared to the insta kill of something like atomic blast.

 

Cat 5 and storm cell do not afford the player that advantage though because you have to actively pull aggro on to yourself to get them to perform.

I'm not sure this was taken in to consideration tbh. 

 

I'm not suggesting these characteristics need fixing, just that they exist for this set and are hopefully taken in to account. 

 

 

 

 

[Frosticus]

As of right now it is questionable if casting storm cell/cat 5 is worthwhile against high defense foes. I just fought silver mantis at lvl 34 (Provost Marchand arc). When she goes defensive I have to hit her with my attacks, which is already challenging and then Storm Cell needs to hit her with its attack, which it struggles with to no avail.

 

2 lvl 35 Acc IO's slotted in storm cell.

 

Over the whole portion of that fight I barely got any lightning procs to fire outside of intensify's up time and I don't think a single one landed.

 

I dunno, def debuffs don't really work well in those situations because they resist them so much and it is really hard to get meaningful tohit buff on to storm cell/ cat 5. Maybe this is just a limitation of the set, but it is the first time I've felt bummed out playing my storm/kin corruptor. 

[Wavicle]

26 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

As of right now it is questionable if casting storm cell/cat 5 is worthwhile against high defense foes. I just fought silver mantis at lvl 34 (Provost Marchand arc). When she goes defensive I have to hit her with my attacks, which is already challenging and then Storm Cell needs to hit her with its attack, which it struggles with to no avail.

 

2 lvl 35 Acc IO's slotted in storm cell.

 

Over the whole portion of that fight I barely got any lightning procs to fire outside of intensify's up time and I don't think a single one landed.

 

I dunno, def debuffs don't really work well in those situations because they resist them so much and it is really hard to get meaningful tohit buff on to storm cell/ cat 5. Maybe this is just a limitation of the set, but it is the first time I've felt bummed out playing my storm/kin corruptor. 

That might just be Kin's weakness. No +Tohit or -Def.

[Frosticus]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

That might just be Kin's weakness. No +Tohit or -Def.

ya, maybe. But as we know -def has minimal impact on foes that resist def debuffs such as AV's, so not a kin problem at all. Across the 4 AT's with access to storm blast none of the secondaries offer meaningful long duration tohit buffing other than time (farsight) and nature (overgrowth). Bio Armor and Invuln armor buff tohit, but they fade off of storm cell after 1 second. 

 

Try it out. It is certainly working as designed, but whether working as intended is a different matter.

 

[WindDemon21]

3 hours ago, Booper said:

Are you thinking of the recent animation change for Chain Lightning? That used to do a ball toss. I am not aware of a change happening to Cloudburst's animation. If it had happened, it would have been unlikely to revert back.

No I was aware of that. If you're telling me that there wasn't a change to it I swear then I had a dream that it had the same one hand lift that gust has and the cloud instantly appeared/formed over the enemies head and it was AWESOME lol. I still say give it the gravity distortion animation, bump its damage a tiny bit to match and give it a KD chance to really oomph it.

 

Also what about the cat5 knockdown proccing, that doesnt lockout every 5 seconds i hope on the same target (same with cell?)

Edited April 18, 2023 by WindDemon21

[MirrorDarkly]

2 hours ago, Frosticus said:

ya, maybe. But as we know -def has minimal impact on foes that resist def debuffs such as AV's, so not a kin problem at all. Across the 4 AT's with access to storm blast none of the secondaries offer meaningful long duration tohit buffing other than time (farsight) and nature (overgrowth). Bio Armor and Invuln armor buff tohit, but they fade off of storm cell after 1 second. 

 

Try it out. It is certainly working as designed, but whether working as intended is a different matter.

 

 

Agreed. I really hope the accuracy of the stom procs gets looked at. I see a huge fall off in their ability to hit when I'm fighting purple enemies which again *feels* like it should be Storm Blasts real strength. And as you noted most tools we get to overcome that don't apply or last long enough to make a meaningful difference. 

[Super Atom]

Can we get the storm snipe animation as an alternative anim for elec blast too? 😞 please?

 

its so cool...

Edited April 18, 2023 by Super Atom

[PoptartsNinja]

2 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Across the 4 AT's with access to storm blast none of the secondaries offer meaningful long duration tohit buffing other than time (farsight) and nature (overgrowth).

 

This is one of the reasons why I think Storm/Devices is going to be the secret power combo.

[WindDemon21]

Just now, PoptartsNinja said:

This is one of the reasons why I think Storm/Devices is going to be the secret power combo.

Targeting drone doesn't transfer over to cell/cat5.

 

The closest we can get on a blaster is storm/dark with soul drain, but /dark has a SLEW of things wrong with it too though especially the dumb sustain that needs a target. At least that means you can pick/slot less, but that's another issue with storm is the sheer powers and slots that it takes up to be effective too.

 

Another reason why its imperative to get a higher base acc doe cell/cat5.

 

Considering what freezing rain/sleet do, it's surprising that they don't already do a decent -defense.

[Frosticus]

44 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

This is one of the reasons why I think Storm/Devices is going to be the secret power combo.

Ya I did miss a few other sources of persistent tohit buffing, but I hate to be the bearer of bad news - only overgrowth, farsight, world of pain, and empowering circuit are going to work from a solo perspective. 

Souldrain (blaster and dark mastery corr/def) is somewhat of an option, but likely won't let you use storm cell from range/undetected as it doesn't last that long. Souldrain could work decently for cat 5 though!

 

Targeting drone buff will drop after 0.5 seconds

Focused Acc will drop after 0.5 seconds

Tactics will drop after 2 seconds

Etc.

 

Defense debuffers are generally fine, except when it matters most because those enemies are basically immune to debuffs. 

[MirrorDarkly]

I would also point out for consideration that Voltic Sentinel's attacks have a 1.4 base accuracy, if I'm reading CoD right.

 

So there is a lot of precedent for giving powers like this a higher base accuracy. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by MirrorDarkly

[Dispari]

9 hours ago, Wavicle said:

That doesn't sound right. Could you possibly post a video? It's a lot to ask, if not I understand.

Unfortunately no, I just have a "screen to gif" program and that already gives me a lot of trouble just making 30 second clips.

If my primary point was not clear, I apologize, that's probably my fault, but I'll try to reiterate.

Category 5 is a tier 9 power that can't perform its primary function without a lot of help. It takes a very long time to kill things on its own. Obviously though, nobody just casts the tier 9 power and stands there. And Cat 5 is designed to make your other powers do more damage instead. The thing is, all sets already work that way. If you follow Inferno with Fireball, you contribute extra damage equivalent to the damage Fireball deals. The key difference is that Inferno already contributed its maximum possible potential, there's no setup or upkeep required, and you probably don't need to follow it up with Fireball because everything is already dead.

You can say Cat 5 is not a nuke, maybe it's instead a unique "setup" move that allows you to do damage approaching a nuke with your other powers. Or basically, a nuke with extra steps. But that comes with a lot of caveats. For instance, if you get mezzed, the power doesn't really do anything on its own. If you get debuffed, or lose your endurance, the power didn't do much. If enemies aren't cooperating and don't stay in the effect, or get taunted or knocked out of it, it's not doing anything. And the entire time enemies are alive they're doing damage to you and your allies (or mezzing you, in which case, see above). And most importantly and most critically, even if everything goes perfectly, you don't get interrupted, enemies stay in Storm Cell and Category Five long enough to matter, you don't mind the extra incoming damage, and you're using your other powers to their maximum, it still takes longer for everything to die than with other sets.

It's possible your testing shows it takes about the same time as other sets, but even then, I don't consider that an improvement. All other tier 9 powers just kill the enemies without any hassle, no fiddly bits, with no opportunity for being mezzed and now Atomic Blast does no damage. Even in an ideal situation where Storm is clearing spawns about as fast as other blast sets, it has more opportunities for failure, and from my testing minions and lieutenants stay alive longer on average (especially considering average alive time for most nukes is "zero seconds"), even if bosses might end up going down around the same time overall. And what exactly does it get for all of those downsides? What are the pros that are worth dealing with all of the cons? The idea of a set that ramps up and delivers its nuke damage in a different way is neat in theory, but execution?

[biostem]

I haven't checked, but given Category Five's unique interaction with, (and in a sense, reliance upon), your other powers, it seems it should have a much lower end cost, a much faster recharge, or some other "gimme" to compensate, no?  Maybe it could grant the caster a buff if they stand inside of it, kind of like how hail of bullets grants a defense buff...

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Dispari said:

what exactly does it get for all of those downsides?

you get a "nuke" that lasts 30 seconds, an extra set of "procs" for your attacks, and a ton of debuffs and soft control. The set trades upfront damage for a lot of survivability but gets some of it back in long fights.