Focused Feedback: Storm Blast

[WindDemon21]

6 hours ago, biostem said:

I haven't checked, but given Category Five's unique interaction with, (and in a sense, reliance upon), your other powers, it seems it should have a much lower end cost, a much faster recharge, or some other "gimme" to compensate, no?  Maybe it could grant the caster a buff if they stand inside of it, kind of like how hail of bullets grants a defense buff...

I would think given the issues especially mez since it's primarily on squishie ATs that don't have mez protection a shorter recharge so you can alternate between that and cell every other mob wouldn't be out of the question, why I mentioned around the 150s mark.

 

Also? If something like that buff definitely not when IN the storm since you want to be out of it at range to use the cone, but maybe a super wide secondary radius for something like that.

 

Maybe similar to O2 boost, but "O3 boost" ie ozone generated from the storms granting mez protection so you can keep attacking to actually use the nuke.

[Isulkian]

change i d like to see before release:

 

INTENSIFY: longer duration as the damage buff is lower than others sets. Would work better with the lonnnnng effect of CAT5.

 

STORM CELL: reduce recharge time and endurance cost. Due to the fast pace of this game, i m afraid this key power will be use only against AV/EB......Let s be honest, imagine using it in high lvl TFs with current statistics.......

 

JET STREAM: if i understand it well, devs build it as a core mechanic of the powerset. It does damage and allows to push mobs into storm cell. On paper it s perfect. In real life i think it s really a bad idea. Even if storm cell is a bit easier to see, in real fight, you often push mobs away from it. There are plenty of fights where mobs cover a bigger surface than storm cell (ITF, TINPEX and others), fights in wich you can t use jet stream without risking throwing mobs away (and don t talk me about skills, with all the visual effect in this game, it becomes a nightmare to see the boundary of storm cell). This will result in people not taking the power (compare to other cone attacks, damage is really low in addition) or putting into it a KB to KD to avoid mayhem. In both case it s really sad, imo, because it s a key design from the devs. The only 2 solutions i see are: -remove the KB and increase damage, KD if inside the storm cell. -As i suggest previously, change the repel/KB to a cyclone effect (like in axe). This will fit completely with the theme of the powerset and will be team (and solo) friendly. The issue with jet stream is that it is a damage AND a control power. Not using it or breaking its mechanics (with io KB to KD) is the sign of a bad design.

 

[Booper]

1 hour ago, Isulkian said:

JET STREAM: if i understand it well, devs build it as a core mechanic of the powerset. It does damage and allows to push mobs into storm cell. 

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/42227-focused-feedback-storm-blast/?do=findComment&comment=548234

[Puma]

On 4/16/2023 at 3:16 PM, Wavicle said:

How is it a "detriment"?

If they removed the ability for it to move I don't think they would be buffing anything else to compensate. The movement is a bonus. It seems to be balanced like any rain power.

The set does NOT "require" Storm Cell to be up at every single moment to be effective. If it goes down for a short time it's not that big a deal, just like if Rain of Fire goes down for a bit it's not a big deal.

Im sorry but the more I play it the more I disagree. 

 

 The set's damage was clearly balanced around the added damage from Storm Cell.  It feels relatively low on the damage output outside of it, and even inside of it it isn't anything special, and is less reliable than actual straight up damage you get from a normal rain or AoE.  A rain going down for a bit is no big deal because it impacts no other powers' effects or damage output.  This does. 

 

Yesterday I had a situation where I laid it on a mob at a cross section in a warehouse.  It decided to stay there a second, then proceeded tp;eave that entire mob to focus on a single boss located far ahead next to several crates.  The mob then overwhelmed me because they were no longer debuffed and I was killed. 

 

Now this is a one off, and one offs happen. But it's a one off that ONLY happened because, if people in here are to be believed, a mechanic was added to this set purely for "flavor".  And this mechanic is bothering several of the people testing, while adding nothing of value to the set aside from "flavor."  

 

So you have a set that they've worked very hard on, has BEAUTIFUL animations and a well liked concept being negatively impacted to the point it can occasionally faceplant players and leave the set's overall performance lacking compared to other sets. 

 

All for "flavor."  That's kind of a big deal. 

[Puma]

On 4/16/2023 at 3:40 PM, kwsapphire said:

 

Oh, that's fantastic! Thank you for confirming! I went back through the thread to see if I had missed something but I didn't see anyone say specifically that it does still work if you use it after you drop your patches. I am so relieved, thank you again! 😄 

I had the same question, which is another issue. With this set's weird dynamics, there needs to be better explanation of how these powers interact. 

[Booper]

6 minutes ago, Puma said:

It decided to stay there a second, then proceeded tp;eave that entire mob to focus on a single boss located far ahead next to several crates

How far ahead, exactly? And what AT were you?

 

Edit: Ok, I suspect I know what happened. It copied the AT modifiers so its perception is 500' instead of the typical 50'. I'll look into that tonight. We'll probably want to reduce it so the storm only follows foes inside its radius.

[Puma]

On 4/16/2023 at 3:44 PM, Wavicle said:

It is a significant damage boosting mechanic. As such it requires investment to have it available all the time, just like any other similar mechanic in the game.

Can you give me some math on  this?  How is it MORE significant a damage boosting mechanic than simple rain of fire? Or a standard AoE attack? 

 

Under OPTIMAL conditions how much damage can be expected with one cast of Storm Cell? 

 

What about AVERAGE conditions?  

 

Because I'm not ever seeing an amazing damage boost, but that could be perception issues and not actual numbers.  If it IS actually doing significant boosts to damage more than, say, Rain of Fire or having a faster recharging added AoE attack, maybe we should have that damage a different color so players are more aware of it.  Because right now I'm not seeing it. 

[Galaxy Brain]

14 minutes ago, Puma said:

Can you give me some math on  this?  How is it MORE significant a damage boosting mechanic than simple rain of fire? Or a standard AoE attack? 

 

Under OPTIMAL conditions how much damage can be expected with one cast of Storm Cell? 

 

What about AVERAGE conditions?  

 

Because I'm not ever seeing an amazing damage boost, but that could be perception issues and not actual numbers.  If it IS actually doing significant boosts to damage more than, say, Rain of Fire or having a faster recharging added AoE attack, maybe we should have that damage a different color so players are more aware of it.  Because right now I'm not seeing it. 

 

It shows up if you show Pet Combat stats iirc

[Puma]

20 minutes ago, Puma said:

Can you give me some math on  this?  How is it MORE significant a damage boosting mechanic than simple rain of fire? Or a standard AoE attack? 

 

Under OPTIMAL conditions how much damage can be expected with one cast of Storm Cell? 

 

What about AVERAGE conditions?  

 

Because I'm not ever seeing an amazing damage boost, but that could be perception issues and not actual numbers.  If it IS actually doing significant boosts to damage more than, say, Rain of Fire or having a faster recharging added AoE attack, maybe we should have that damage a different color so players are more aware of it.  Because right now I'm not seeing it. 

On a Storm Blast/Trick Arrow Corrupter. And I would guess maybe 30 feet?  But that's a guess. Distance has always been weird to me in this game,  Far enough away he wasnt aggroed by my fighting the mob I WAS in battle with, if that helps. 

[Isulkian]

1 hour ago, Booper said:

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/42227-focused-feedback-storm-blast/?do=findComment&comment=548234

so it s even worse, it ll be a simple skip for me....

[Gobbledigook]

How does Fulcrum shift react with Category 5? I have not tried that combo.  

[Frosticus]

58 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

How does Fulcrum shift react with Category 5? I have not tried that combo.  

Used before - It buffs it. Used after it does nothing to affect Cat 5's performance. 

 

Storm cell and cat 5 probably have the lower damage cap normally associated with psuedopets, but I haven't confirmed that myself. 

edit: Booper has indicated they follow AT modifiers so:

Defender Cat 5 lightning at fulcrum damage cap should hit for - 31.15*4 = 124.6

Corruptor Cat 5 lightning at fulcrum damage cap should hit for - 41.7*5 = 208.5

 

It is a bit confusing, but your personal attacks (gust, hailstones etc) don't govern the damage that the lightning strikes do even though they appear to trigger them. Basically they instruct cat 5/storm cell to use its attacks which are governed by whatever enhancement values/buffs you have in those powers.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Frosticus

[Booper]

4 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Storm cell and cat 5 probably have the lower damage cap normally associated with psuedopets, but I haven't confirmed that myself. 

They copy AT modifiers. 

[UltraAlt]

Level 30 Blaster Storm/Martial arts

Ran a police mission +2/1 solo.

 

Pathetically easy. 

Fought a Purple Boss and a red LT CoT. Sniped the purple with Direct strike, dropped Category 5 and Storm cell just in front of the two opponents, and started using Gust, Hailstones, and CloudBurst ... not even sure how many of those last three powers I used in the cycle before the purple was down. 

 

Ran another purple boss and red LT CoT almost immediately. DIdn't have Category 5 recharged yet, but, of course (now), Storm Cell was already ready to go. I still think I ended up defeating the purple before or by the time that cycle (Direct Strike, gust, hailstone, and Cloudburst) with one Ki Push in the mix. 

 

Just not a challenge and I'm used to Purples still being a bit challenging at level 30.

Seems overpowered to me.

[WindDemon21]

18 hours ago, Booper said:

Just to clarify, the same target can only be hit every 5s. You can certainly proc more often than that to hit other targets.

Just as a note too, lockouts are the worst possible thing to start applying. I'd rather there not be a lockout, and lower the proc chances to average what the difference would be. This would also actually help make intensify better too because that 20% more chance would mean more since the enemies would not be under the lockout effect.

 

Lockouts in general just need to be removed from this game, it's a terrible mechanic. Especially blood stacks on any savage character (should only use up blood, not lockout), psy melee lockouts, even the phase shift lockout is dumb and serves no purpose.

 

So please remove the lockouts on these and the cat5 procs (cell too if it locks out)

[MirrorDarkly]

47 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I'd rather there not be a lockout, and lower the proc chances to average what the difference would be. This would also actually help make intensify better too because that 20% more chance would mean more since the enemies would not be under the lockout effect.

 

Respectful I'm not sure if I agree. As it stands now once I'm done dropping everything there is almost always a huge burst of lightning that scythes through most enemies when I make the first or second real attack, especially if I use Intensity. After that it's mostly cleanup. 

 

If they cut the proc chance to remove the lockout it's entirely possible I'd have to make 3, 4 or even 5 attacks before I see that payoff on top of all the current setup. 

 

Now mathematically it would be a wash over an infinite number of attacks because it would be balanced by back to back procs but in practice I feel like it's much more important to get that first burst of lightning off then immediately follow it up with a second on the same targets.

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, MirrorDarkly said:

 

Respectful I'm not sure if I agree. As it stands now once I'm done dropping everything there is almost always a huge burst of lightning that scythes through most enemies when I make the first or second real attack, especially if I use Intensity. After that it's mostly cleanup. 

 

If they cut the proc chance to remove the lockout it's entirely possible I'd have to make 3, 4 or even 5 attacks before I see that payoff on top of all the current setup. 

 

Now mathematically it would be a wash over an infinite number of attacks because it would be balanced by back to back procs but in practice I feel like it's much more important to get that first burst of lightning off then immediately follow it up with a second on the same targets.

That's not true, re-read, i said to lower the proc chances TO AVERAGE the same. So you'd still get getting the same average procs over time.

 

Edit: so generally, with your first aoe volley, you're getting the most proc chances, making that 2nd aoe less likely to proc or do anything essentially wasting the next aoe attack. Especially if you're ony using chain lightning (like for a melee toon blapper, traps, poison etc), and you're getting your recharge down under 5 seconds. In that case, your next aoe will do almost no bonus proccing, and you almost have to self-hinder your aoe to not use it until those 5 seconds are up.

Edited April 18, 2023 by WindDemon21

[Player-1]

5 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

aoe volley, you're getting the most proc chances

 

For clarity, the chances to summon High Winds or Lightning are set by the power activating. Chain Lightning has the higher end of said chances, but the dice will only roll once upon activation and not per target. Jet Stream nor Chain Lightning have bonus odds due to hitting multiple targets as seen in other, similar procs.

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, Player-1 said:

 

For clarity, the chances to summon High Winds or Lightning are set by the power activating. Chain Lightning has the higher end of said chances, but the dice will only roll once upon activation and not per target. Jet Stream nor Chain Lightning have bonus odds due to hitting multiple targets as seen in other, similar procs.

Ok, that clarification helps, but still doesn't change what was said, that your chances upon the next consecutive attacks are less and less especially when using intensify until that lockout goes away. Hence why the lockout should be removed and the chances adjusted properly to compensate. We're not talking the chances going down DRAMATICALLY here, just enough to mathematically equal what they would be with the lockout, and then equalizing. So that way it's still the same procs over time, but then this also rewards more continual attacking with the storm powers, and also gives more benefit when using intensify.

[MirrorDarkly]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

That's not true, re-read, i said to lower the proc chances TO AVERAGE the same. So you'd still get getting the same average procs over time.

 

Edit: so generally, with your first aoe volley, you're getting the most proc chances, making that 2nd aoe less likely to proc or do anything essentially wasting the next aoe attack. Especially if you're ony using chain lightning (like for a melee toon blapper, traps, poison etc), and you're getting your recharge down under 5 seconds. In that case, your next aoe will do almost no bonus proccing, and you almost have to self-hinder your aoe to not use it until those 5 seconds are up.

 

I understand that, it is the core of my concern about the idea.

 

Let's do some back of the envelope math and assume an 80% chance to proc with a lock out on average is the same as a 40% chance to proc with no lock out. (These are made up numbers, I have not done the math to know what is actually equivalent.)

 

As it currently stands you would have an 80% chance to proc on your first attack, a 96% chance to have proced by your second attack and a 99.2% chance to have proced by your third attack.  But assuming those three attacks are all with 5 seconds you would have no chance to have proced twice on the same target.

 

Changing it would give you a 40% chance to proc on the first attack. A 64% chance to have proced at least once by your second attack and an 78.4% chance to have proced at least once by your third attack. But 16% of the time both your first and second attack will have proced on the same target and on the third attack 31% of the time you would have seen two procs on the same target and 6.4% of the time the same target would have been hit with three procs.

 

So again my concern is that, assuming on a test dummy over a long enough time these produce identical damage, in actual play the additional 20% of the time that you've seen no procs by attack number three will hurt more than the times you squeeze in an extra proc or two within those same three attacks. 

 

Does that make sense? 

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, MirrorDarkly said:

80% chance to proc with a lock out on average is the same as a 40%

I already didn't need to finish reading the rest of your stuff (though I did) because this is WAYYYY too drastic of a drop. To counter the lockouts going away, granting over time and that it requires constant attacking I'd be thinking like a 10% or 15% drop. It certainly wouldn't drop 20% or more going past the benefit of intensify. I'm sure someone could do the math on where that actual percentage drop would be appropriate, but the point is, there IS a value where the loss of percent chance is still a net gain for removing the lockout, and a much bigger help when using intensify.

[MirrorDarkly]

39 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I already didn't need to finish reading the rest of your stuff (though I did) because this is WAYYYY too drastic of a drop. To counter the lockouts going away, granting over time and that it requires constant attacking I'd be thinking like a 10% or 15% drop. It certainly wouldn't drop 20% or more going past the benefit of intensify. I'm sure someone could do the math on where that actual percentage drop would be appropriate, but the point is, there IS a value where the loss of percent chance is still a net gain for removing the lockout, and a much bigger help when using intensify.

 

Are you sure about that?

 

Just on one target and assuming the proc does 100 points of damage.

 

After three attacks at 80% with a lock out you'd have averaged 99.2 proc damage the current way. (100 damage x 99.2% change to see a proc).

 

With no lock out after three attacks at 40%.

41% of the time you'd see 100 proc damage so 41 average damage there.

31% of the time you'd see 200 proc damage so 62 average damage there.

6.4% of the time you'd see 300 proc damage so 19.2 average damage there.

For a total of 122.2 proc damage over the same 3 attacks.

 

So if I'm doing my math right I understated how big of a % drop you would need to average out the same damage over time.

 

Edit: Since the lockout is per target the more targets you have the less % proc chance you'd need to remove. But it also means it is probably impossible to remove the lockout and get the same average damage over time for all group sizes.

Edited April 18, 2023 by MirrorDarkly

[Grimm2]

On 4/15/2023 at 10:38 PM, Grimm2 said:

Ran a series of radios at +4/x8, with a very built-out Water/Bio Sentinel. All the bells and whistles, accolades, Musculature radial, 95% slow resist, debuff resist destiny. Council, carnies, Arachnos. There's a KB IO in Storm Cell, entertained the possibility of a FF+recharge in Hailstones, but I don't think I put it in. No epic powers. Avoided judgement powers.

 

I have had trouble making Sentinels that grab my attention, because all they have to do is blast, and a lot of blast sets are boring to me. Storm is not boring! It feels really fun to play, not necessarily the fastest or most DPS, but not too bad in those departments either. 

 

Once the storms are dropped, spamming attacks and watching the havoc is super awesome. I feel like a mini- controller with the knockdown the build was doing. With the endmod from Musculature Radial, and high recharge, bosses were losing endurance enough to affect their attacks. Harrassing a boss is a joy with these powers. There's also a lot of scatter, and cleanup from mobs with a sliver of health left. 

 

Arachnos and Carnies are tough as always, but the chaos worked to my advantage and I could chug through them pretty reliably. 

 

I'm thinking of rebuilding with electric fences instead of Gust, if I do ill update. It's a cool powerset that has a windup time to be at its best, and just because of that it won't upset the current top choices, I think. 

 

+1 to keeping Storm Cell as it is. Agreed that it's basically a neat rain power.

 

 

So I went ahead and rebuilt my Storm/Bio Sentinel, omitting Gust and adding in Electric Fences. I had an experience that seems to support @Frosticus's position on acc slotting in Storm Cell. 

 

I went in first with Ice Mistral's Torment in Storm Cell, and Superior Frozen Blast in E.Fences. Those round of missions (at effective +3/x8) were fine, but I had to clean up each group more than expected. Ice Mistral's Torment has ~60% acc, Superior Frozen Blast has ~95%. 

 

I switched the slotting of these 2 powers, and I suddenly had only 1-3 mobs to clean up each fight. I'm inclined to concur that Acc in Storm Cell is important, and if the procs are missing, there's not much of a reason to bring Storm/ to the party over another less fiddly set. 

 

I still think the set is fun, but there's no denying you want things to go a certain way, and it doesn't feel as good if it doesn't. It'll be interesting to see the set released into the wild alongside everything else. 

 

Edit: WAY better with an aoe immob in play, by the way. Respeccing out of Gust would hurt in low- level play, but locking stuff in the kill zone is bliss.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Grimm2

[biostem]

So just to be clear, do the "special effects" that occur within the storm cell, (the part referenced by: "the use of your Storm Blast attacks may create high winds and lightning within the storm cell, delivering stronger debuffs and causing damage"), rely upon the acc and other enh's slotted into storm cell itself?

[WindDemon21]

6 hours ago, MirrorDarkly said:

 

Are you sure about that?

 

Just on one target and assuming the proc does 100 points of damage.

 

After three attacks at 80% with a lock out you'd have averaged 99.2 proc damage the current way. (100 damage x 99.2% change to see a proc).

 

With no lock out after three attacks at 40%.

41% of the time you'd see 100 proc damage so 41 average damage there.

31% of the time you'd see 200 proc damage so 62 average damage there.

6.4% of the time you'd see 300 proc damage so 19.2 average damage there.

For a total of 122.2 proc damage over the same 3 attacks.

 

So if I'm doing my math right I understated how big of a % drop you would need to average out the same damage over time.

 

Edit: Since the lockout is per target the more targets you have the less % proc chance you'd need to remove. But it also means it is probably impossible to remove the lockout and get the same average damage over time for all group sizes.

 Well i know there is a thing with the math where when chance rolls occur that changes the chance per the next roll that has been too many years since (something like that 3 door problem, you choose one, another opens and isn't it, so you change your door and you get 2/3 of the odds to get it right the 2nd time or whatever).

 

But outside of that which will work on both scenarios, the lockout still hurts.

 

So lets do it this way which isn't the whole equation but gives you an idea. That 80%, let's say the proc damage is an even 100, so the "chance to" is essentially the average damage on that roll. For one, lets say it procs on that first hit, then that means the next 2 hits (going with your 3 hit scenario), are already floored at ZERO damage because of the dumb lockout. (which again, also fully nullifies most of the proc benefit of intensify)

 

So you have when the proc fires:

 

1st try damage: 80+0+0/3 = 26.667

2nd try damage: 80+80+0/3 = 53.33

3rd try damage: 80+80+80/3 = 80

 

then average those out: 26.667+53.33+80/3 = 53.33 damage

 

Now take the non-lockout scenario of 65% chance:

 

65+65+65/3 = 65 damage

 

As you can see, the damage over time is a good bit more in favor of the no lockout scenario at 65%

 

Now, this gets a lot more complicated when there are multiple foes in range as opposed to just one target, but you see how this works. In the scenario where there are more than the 5 targets which IIRC is the cap on the proc hitting (and if not, we can calculate that too), then on that first or second proc chance sure, the numbers on the lockout-scenario would put that closer, but the ONLY instance where the lockout scenario is preferable is pretty much with that first hit.

 

Now factor in using intensify, which is by and large the main purpose of the power is to help deal more damage:

 

That 65%, turns into 85%. Since there are no lockouts, that's the full chance EVERY hit, which is even better than the original chances, during the FULL duration of intensify too.

 

As it is now, with the lockouts that means that you're only getting about 2/10 of the intensify procs, as for 5 seconds, the extra chance will do literally NOTHING, and it only lasts for 10 seconds, so you're only getting two hits with that 20% higher chance. That's it. Again, with a bigger mob, its a little better, but that same effect still works the way i just described it.

 

This is why a lockout is TERRIBLE for the cat5 (and/or storm cell, any word on if that officially locks out too?), and also makes intensify just that much worse. cause after a target is hit, that extra chance does literally nothing for the next 5 seconds. Again, bigger mobs aren't hit as bad, but still far worse than if there were no lockouts.

 

PLEASE remove the lockouts (and fix the base acc while you're at it, clearly it's an issue on 97% of the AT combos you can pair with storm.

Edited April 19, 2023 by WindDemon21