The ultimate support?

[A3r0h]

Right, so let me first off set the parameters.
There are obviously many ways to support, but I tend to levitate towards healing, buffing, debuffing and CC.
I played a Mind/Kin and Mind/Empath Controllers for a long time back in the days, when healing was of more value than today, where everyone tries to cap on res and def in some way, and often have some reactive way to sustain survivability within their own kit. CC was somewhat the same, and added another layer of passive survivability.
I feel like the meta has shiftet a lot over the years though, so I am trying to find my place within that new setting coming back to the game.

 

From what I gather, the 2 main supports people fancy are anything Kinetics to help hit the dmg cap, and mostly Sonic Resonance to go deep into -res once dmg cap has been reached. I guess it is fair to say that those are the purest sets to choose, as no other set can rival the +dmg of kinetics, and no other set can hit as much -res as Sonic.
That being said, there is an overlap with a few other sets also providing both +dmg and -res, like Radiation Emission and Pain Domination.
Aside from that, I think -regen also has it's place, as a full team with no -regen at all, can struggle greatly agains some obstackles. There are ways to counter this via the P2W vendor, but if it is passivly build into a set, I see that as a major bonus.
Last but not least, I also put some value into +rec, +regen and +recovery. Most people have found a balance on these in their builds, but often times it is a still a small increase to the performance of a team overall. Same goes for +res and +def buffs or +status res, which can help plug holes in the team defenses, and add a bit of overall survivability. Same goes for healing and absorb, even though it feels like the need is rare these days.

So lets break it down.
I feel like the battle is between Kinetics, Sonic, Pain and Radiation. You can argue for Thermal, but I feel like Pain does the same, just better.
I guess +dmg always wins over -res, as -res is relative to how much res the target has, where dmg is always gonna be a set % inc in performance.
This puts Kin as the top contender. Kin also has -regen, even though it is a fairly small one, with only -50% from Transfusion.
For +dmg Pain comes in at a second place, with a 20% pbaoe as well as a whopping ST +62.5% but with fairly ez perma uptime, no stacking though.
Rad hits the 3rd place with a 25% pbaoe that also gives +30% rec.
Sonic offers little in +dmg, but can go full -60% res, -30% in a ally pbaoe toggle and a ST -30%.
Pain has a -30% pbaoe with a technical perma uptime of 30sec, but has trouble if groups are killed any faster or slower than that.
Rad also offers -30%, but with much greater uptime as a target toggle, as well a whopping -500% regen in a target aoe.
Kin offers no -res, but does come with +rec and an almost unlimited +recovery, especially for melee.
Only Sonic has no options to heal, where Kin are only able to heal for melee, Rad a regular pbaoe heal, and pain offering both the pbaoe as well as a ST heal and a ST self dmg for heal.
As for the solo and party viability, both Sonic and Pain suffer greatly from a lot of the buffs working mostly for allys and not self. Pain does get the -res and +dmg buff though, where Sonic basically gets no benefit what so ever. Rad and Kin gets the full benefit in solo as well as party. Pain works well also, if you have access to a pet, like for MMs and some Controller builds, but not so much on Def and Corr.

Lest quickly mention the top secondary sets for possibly plugs or enhancements.
The sets that stands out to me are Sonic for -res stacking, Beam Rifle for -res and -regen, Dual Pistols for -res.
I find it, that even if Sonic has a bigger potential for -res than BR and DP which both sport a -20% res with perma uptime in 1 ST power, Sonic is a horrilbly designed set, and the cones are terrible at applying the debuffs to multiple targets. You also have to use at least 3 powers to stack past 20%, which means a lot more active focus on the -res stacking, than your primary set. This is maninly a concern for Kins, being a super active set itself.
DP's -res is a piercing attack that can hit mobs in a line, which is also great on paper, but not great in practise, and which I'd honestly more considder just a ST attack. It does require you to shuffle ammo to get the -res debuff.
BR's -res attack is also a piercing attack, but comes out on top here IMO, as it requires no real attention other than running your main rotation or keeping 1 ST att up every 10secs, leaving you to choose where to focus your energy, more so than the other sets. It also sports a -150% regen debuff as well with a 15s duration.

So that being said, the purist would most likely go Kin/Sonic or Kin/BR, or, Sonic/Sonic or Sonic/BR. The more broad approach would probably choose either Pain or Rad. Rad for the faster pace, Pain for the healing.

I recognize that many other sets have support aspects to them, like elec's drains, darks -tohit and so on, but I find that in endgame, it mostly boils down to the above mentioned +dmg, -res, -regen with a secondary focus on +res, +def, +status res and healing.

 

If you could take 1 support for your team, which would you want? (not exclusive to Defenders)
If you could choose 2 supports for your team, which would those be? (not exclusive to Defenders)

I think mine would currently be 1. Kin/BR Corr and 2. Sonic/Sonic Def

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by A3r0h

[Doomguide2005]

     Depends on all sorts of things among which are:

• Level range being discussed 
• What character (AT/sets) I'm on
• Expected Foes
• Expected Notoriety +/- Hardmode settings
• Team size
• Familiarity with the AT/Sets of the character I'm playing

     My Claws/SR scrapper and my Emp/Fire defender have very different support needs for instance even if everything is otherwise similar.

[Psyonico]

I'm surprised you didn't bring up cold.

 

It's a very powerful debuff set with a couple of nice buffs in it as well.  It does better AOE and spike -res than Sonic does because of stacking heat loss and sleet.  The catch is heat loss is hard (if not impossible) to get the -res permanent.

 

But, there's a reason HM teams like cold.

[biostem]

I rather like pain domination.  One big thing for me is that, even with how good kinetics is, you sometimes want/need that heal that doesn't require you to target an enemy.  Electrical Affinity is also very good, but it takes a bit to get the most out of the chaining effect.

[tjknight]

Electric Affinity - it literally does just about everything you need to support a team. 

[biostem]

1 minute ago, tjknight said:

Electric Affinity - it literally does just about everything you need to support a team.

After playing it for a bit, you become hyper-aware of watching how many stacks of static you have and recast Faraday cage a LOT!  I prefer the set on controllers or masterminds, where you have more permanent pets available to target off of.  I know defenders/corruptors can take the sentinel, but I don't care for it.

[smnolimits43]

i have like10 empaths, maybe i'll try Pain.

[Uun]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Nature. It offers very strong ally buffs (heal, +res, +regen, +absorb, +dmg) and foe debuffs (-res (ST), -dmg, -tohit, -regen). Generally valued for HM runs. 

[nihilii]

If I could choose 2 supports for my team, they'd likely be Cold/Sonic and Nature/Sonic.

 

Comprehensive +DEF, +RES, +maxHP, +absorb (and +maxHP boosts +absorb), slow resistance and heals package between the two of them.

Tons of -RES. Decent -DAM. Decent +DAM. OKish -regen. Stellar end management.

This more or less covers everything you could want.

[Renatos1023]

As Nihilii says above, Cold/ and Nature/ would be my two choices. I run a tricked out Cold/Ice Defender and it is by far my favorite character. Perma-Sleet keeps everything on their butts and provides a good amount of -def and -res; Heat Loss means no one has to worry about endurance plus more -res debuff; She also gives 39% defense to all (but Psi and Toxic I believe).

 

I also have a Nature/Sonic Defender who is a beast. Entangling Aura is a fantastic defensive power and keeps the riff raff held. The cone heal comes in handy, plus the two click buffs for +Res and +Absorb make you and your team pretty sturdy. The T9 buff also provides good +dam, +to-hit, and -end. cost. It also has some potent debuffs. All around, a very versatile set.

 

A third favorite of mine is my Dark/Water. Provides good -res and -to-hit. Also has my favorite heal and rez in the game. Dark is very controller-y with Fearsome Stare and Howling Twilight (it is your rez, but also serves as an AoE stun). The T9 pet also helps with more healing and debuffage. 

 

Tbh, I don't think you can go wrong with any Defender primary, but these are my top 3 for both fun and utility.

[SeraphimKensai]

I mained a PvP Empath for years. Occasionally I'd play with some RL friends in the same room. In my experience those blasters were the best support I could ask for. They always tossed me a cold beer as I finished one off, and they'd keep me on my toes when I was keeping them set with Fort/CM and kill stealing them.

 

That said in PvE without support to feed you a beer buffet, anything that lays down heavy debuffs is one of my preferred ways of playing. Trick Arrow, Cold, Storm, etc.

[Lazarus]

May I off another alternative.

 

Have a look at the epic Arachnos Soldier,..in the in the initial set u have AOE (  -def,.-res,..immobilize)

 add that with double leadership for ALOT (+22% ish def,..30%dam,..18%ish TO HIT)

then add in the other abilities like  Surveillance large single target -res

all that and more BEFORE u rven count side pools or PATRON POWER pools for more buffs and debuffs.

[ClawsandEffect]

Nature is my personal favorite. 

 

It's especially great for people like me who despise having to target teammates to buff them. I just have to be in their general vicinity with Nature. 

[Bumguffy]

1 Defender in team = If you are a great player then Kin - what you choose for secondary is a little bit arbitrary in my opinion as you'll be super-busy in a larger team. Otherwise, if you're not a great player (like me) then Rad primary is a much simpler choice and all 'foe focused' - plus it blossoms early - sonic and rad are nice secondaries.

2 Defenders in team = As you'll not know the makeup of the potential remaining 6 team-mates I'd suggest both the above as I think debuff for a full PuG team just trumps buffs - logic would suggest a buff heavy and debuff heavy mix - but there's always be the time when the buffer is bored not needing to 'heal' the only squishy blaster on the team as the tank/brute brigade turned up in force.

And to answer a question you didn't ask;

3+ Defenders in team = All Rad primary with anything heavy AoE and no KB as great secondary choices. The other good choice for more than 2 defenders in the team is "Yes please, bring more defenders!" - stacked leadership as passive buffs alone is a good enough reason before even considering the 'right' primary powers (not sure there's a wrong defender set).

[drgantz]

I noticed that several mentioned Nature.  Two mentioned  /Sonic as the secondary.  Is /Sonic the best secondary?

[honoroit]

sonic blast on defender has particularly strong (vs corruptor or blaster) -res debuffs.

 

look at numbers here and youll see:

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/powerset.html?pset=defender_ranged.sonic_attack&at=defender

 

theres a pulldown on each ability which lets you select archetype to examine.

 

because bigger debuff to damage resistance, monsters that are hit take more damage after you strike them for a period of time.  this layers up on different powers cast.

 

the result is a damage accellerant for your team's damage, resultant of you shouting at things.

 

best? depends on your goals, and the needs of your primary.

 

you need to devote significant action time towards layering -res debuffs for it to be greatly impactful - the calculus of that against a rain of fire / blizzard / or other else is part of your approach as defender.

[Without_Pause]

4 hours ago, drgantz said:

I noticed that several mentioned Nature.  Two mentioned  /Sonic as the secondary.  Is /Sonic the best secondary?

It's in the running since it offers -Res. I will just point out Beam has some -Res and -Regen. 

 

I think it's easier to find primaries which are lacking versus ones which are 'the best.' I'm honestly surprised Time hasn't been mentioned.

[Hjarki]

In some sense, support sets are just armor sets you use for the benefits of others.

 

Unfortunately, there are two problems with this model:

• The player with the armor set is always where they are. The player with the support set may or may not be in position to help the player they're helping.
• The player with the armor set knows precisely what breakpoints they need to hit and how to hit them. The player with the support set has no idea what - if anything - they can do to help nor how much that help is worth.

The result is that you'll find a lot of situations where your Defender/Corruptor is really little more than a weak Blaster - regardless of which support set you choose. So my main criteria for "best support" is answering the question "how can I be useful when my buffs/debuffs aren't?".

[lemming]

Just noticed this thread after I started work on a Nature/Sonic Defender.   I have no idea what I'm doing. 😄

 

It seems to have a bunch of buffs & debuffs for teaming.  Already in my 30s and will probably screw around on beta a bit with different builds, but if someone has a suggestion to start with...

 

[MonteCarla]

In response to your analysis of +Damage vs -Res in the original post:

 

Characters typically run around at +100% damage anyway due to slotting. Add on top of this Blaster Defiance (maybe +50%) and Brute Fury (+150% ish) and bonuses from Aim, and Build Up for the big damage events like nukes and it may be more like +200% or +300%

 

Adding 62.5% from Painbringer (for example), gets diluted by this to change your damage from 300% to 362.5%, which is only a 20% increase in terms of how much damage the enemy takes.

 

-Res on the other hand mulitplies this base. So a character with +200% damage attacking an enemy with -30% res does 260% base damage. (200 * (100 + 30)/100)

 

On a typical decent PUG Task Force team, you'll maybe have two other support characters doing -30% Res to enemies on average for 160% damage. Adding another set of this yourself increases team damage to +190%.

And the way that resistance resists resistance debuffs means that -30% Res always means an enemy takes 30% more damage whatever their resistance. 

 

In short, -X% resistance debuff is typically worth +2X% damage, or more.

 

 

 

[Uun]

44 minutes ago, lemming said:

Just noticed this thread after I started work on a Nature/Sonic Defender.   I have no idea what I'm doing. 😄

 

It seems to have a bunch of buffs & debuffs for teaming.  Already in my 30s and will probably screw around on beta a bit with different builds, but if someone has a suggestion to start with...

My Nature philosophy runs focuses on regen, absorb and resistance. Despite ignoring the defense soft cap meta, I find this to be incredibly tanky. I generally alternate Wild Growth and Wild Bastion as team buffs and fire Overgrowth whenever it's up. With enough recharge, Wild Growth can be made perma but Wild Bastion and Overgrowth are tougher.

 

Corrosive Enzymes: Doesn't take any sets. I slot with 1 acc IO + 1 rech IO

Regrowth: Cone heal (including self). 6x Preventative Medicine.

Wild Growth: PBAoE +resist, +regen. 3-4x Aegis or Unbreakable Guard, Steadfast %def, 2x healing set of your choice. Maximize +resist and +rech,  and get as much +heal as you can.

Spore Cloud: AOE toggle -tohit, -dmg, -regen. 3-4x Dark Watcher's Despair.

Lifegiving Spores: Location AoE +heal, +end. Skip or take at lvl 49. I've tried slotting for +end and +heal and haven't been impressed with either.

Wild Bastion: PBAoE +absorb, +heal. 6x Numina.

Rebirth: Ally rez or ST HoT. 1x rech.

Entangling Aura: 15 ft radius hold aura (Choking Cloud clone). 80% mag 1 hold + 50% mag 2 hold. After 2-3 pulses, all minions and lts will be held. Frankenslot with 3x end/hold. Take an epic hold to hold bosses. 

Overgrowth: PBAoE +dmg, +tohit, end discount. 2x 50+5 rech IOs.

[Psylenz0511]

I have to vote for Electric Affinity. It buffs recharge, heals,  applies a degree of absorb, buffs tohit, buffs recovery, And then there is Faraday Cage for resistance, mezz protection and a myriad of status protections that sonic dispersion wishes it had. Kinetics is the king of damage buff; however, increase density won't protect a team of 8 from the statuses that Faraday Cage offers protection for. Radiation is a great debuffer, but in practice, powers like radiation infection only get proper usage against bosses and hard targets. I will admit the -regen in EA is weak, even dark miasma has trouble with heavy status attackers like Super Stunners and Gunslingers. That said, I still like the balanced support of an electric affinity on the team, especially if he has 7 defender cousins to team with >:)

[Doomguide2005]

On 7/23/2023 at 6:55 PM, MonteCarla said:

In response to your analysis of +Damage vs -Res in the original post:

 

Characters typically run around at +100% damage anyway due to slotting. Add on top of this Blaster Defiance (maybe +50%) and Brute Fury (+150% ish) and bonuses from Aim, and Build Up for the big damage events like nukes and it may be more like +200% or +300%

 

Adding 62.5% from Painbringer (for example), gets diluted by this to change your damage from 300% to 362.5%, which is only a 20% increase in terms of how much damage the enemy takes.

 

-Res on the other hand mulitplies this base. So a character with +200% damage attacking an enemy with -30% res does 260% base damage. (200 * (100 + 30)/100)

 

On a typical decent PUG Task Force team, you'll maybe have two other support characters doing -30% Res to enemies on average for 160% damage. Adding another set of this yourself increases team damage to +190%.

And the way that resistance resists resistance debuffs means that -30% Res always means an enemy takes 30% more damage whatever their resistance. 

 

In short, -X% resistance debuff is typically worth +2X% damage, or more.

 

 

 

Another large factor in the Sonic Assault (or any strong resistance debuffs) set is procs and resistance debuffs are the only was to further increase damage output past the damage caps of the ATs

[Without_Pause]

Corr: Ice/kin. Loads of damage with some mitigation.

Def: Time/rad. I'll accept Time/beam as well since Time's -Regen isn't great, I look for Def, Recharge, and End. This covers all of them and tosses in some controls as well. Rad mostly due to -Def and a number of AoEs. My attack chain is practically nothing but AoEs even in my early 30s. Unlocking Judgement feels almost unfair. 

Controller: Ill/dark. Plant/dark is also acceptable. Perma PA means alpha strike is a joke. Controllers got the best support version of Dark. 

[Thraxen]

Nature.