Misconceptions about a tank

[Psyonico]

23 minutes ago, Ashford said:

 the only reason a Tanker would actually need a taunt at all is if the Tanker rolled a more single target AT like Energy Melee. 

Gauntlet provides a 5 target AOE taunt on single target attacks.

 

You'd also still have your taunt aura.

[Nyghtmaire]

52 minutes ago, Ashford said:

only reason a Tanker would actually need a taunt at all is if the Tanker rolled a more single target AT like Energy Melee.

Useful for grabbing more groups to a kill-zone. Keep feeding the wood chipper. Notwithstanding agree wholeheartedly (half my tanks take taunt, for what it’s worth).

[Brawlin]

I've seen plenty of tanks that build for defense/incarnates/inspirations crumble where res built debuff immune tanks shine in Aeon/hard AE especially with challenge settings. If you have incarnates/insps and/or nutty support/defbuff sets you don't need a tank in the first place and a stalker with taunt could do the same job.

Point is to many tanks have joined my teams for content, fell on their face and quit team or logged out after their first death. Would be nice to see more tanks built to tank rather then built to do council radios.

[lemming]

On 5/14/2023 at 11:55 AM, bigmarty said:

They probably play with tanks that forget to turn on their toggles.

Heh. I did this today while PLing a friend and noted I was taking a bit more damage than normal.  After the big mob got taken out, oops.  Rest of mission went much faster. 😄

[Owenknowone]

Sooooo...   In reading these comments It feels as if one doesn't play a tanker as the agro magnet it's class was originally conceived but more as another damage dealer who has better survivability???  

 

If that is the thinking does a highly tuned scrapper out perform a tank with a brute something in the middle?

[Spaghetti Betty]

1 minute ago, Owenknowone said:

Sooooo...   In reading these comments It feels as if one doesn't play a tanker as the agro magnet it's class was originally conceived but more as another damage dealer who has better survivability???  

 

If that is the thinking does a highly tuned scrapper out perform a tank with a brute something in the middle?

It's more along the lines of a Tank is so good at being an untouchable aggro magnet out the box that it's a little silly to think that it's their only job. If anything, the amount of toughness a Tank gets straight away would encourage one to build for offense even more so since the Tanking part is essentially already taken care of by the act of choosing the AT.

 

All teammates support eachother through their respective Primary roles but everyone's job is to contribute to damage once their primary job is done. Otherwise everybody wouldn't get a damage dealing set.

[Zect]

3 hours ago, Owenknowone said:

Sooooo...   In reading these comments It feels as if one doesn't play a tanker as the agro magnet it's class was originally conceived but more as another damage dealer who has better survivability??? 

 

People who build and play tanks as pure aggro magnets and brag about how they are completely indestructible tend to suck at tanking. The reason is that offense and defense work in synergy, not in opposition.

 

Take for example a situation where you're fighting 1 mob and some idiot blaster aggros a 2nd mob, or an ambush spawns. A turtle-tank will be unable to deal with the situation because the number of mobs is now significantly over the aggro cap leading to collapse of the backline. Conversely, a tank with both high damage and defenses will be able to help quickly kill all minions and lts in the incoming spawn reducing enemy numbers to or below the aggro cap, regaining control of the situation; while using efficient build design principles to achieve similar defensive power to the turtle-tank.

[nihilii]

In honor of this thread, I've created a new Rad/SS Tanker called "Misconceptions". She will focus entirely on her attacks at the detriment of defense. She will not pick up Taunt. Once she's lvl 35, I intend to respec out of most of my secondary and into the Fire epic, use fire blasts extensively, and play at range. Thank you for the inspiration, Diantane!

[ZemX]

On 5/14/2023 at 2:26 PM, Diantane said:

Well it seems that every player that makes a tank seems to think it is a scrapper with more armor. The primary and secondary powers are split 50/50. This makes for a very low DPS AT

 

[ZemX]

5 hours ago, Owenknowone said:

Sooooo...   In reading these comments It feels as if one doesn't play a tanker as the agro magnet it's class was originally conceived but more as another damage dealer who has better survivability???  

 

If that is the thinking does a highly tuned scrapper out perform a tank with a brute something in the middle?

 

The purely offensive tanker is probably as rare as the purely defensive one in the actual community.  Most people build a balanced tanker with attacks and defenses.  And any tanker can be an aggro magnet even without Taunt, provided they have attacks to use instead.

 

Taunt just makes it easier and more convenient to drag in outlying aggro.

[Hyperstrike]

On 5/13/2023 at 3:51 AM, Diantane said:

Players seem to think that a tank does incredible damage. I see players with several low tier, weak secondary attacks up front. Made an Invul tank one day and a player asked me if I had Super Strength. That is a very popular cookie cutter build. Does it do a lot of damage? Not compared to a scrapper or brute where those same attacks are their primary powers.

 

A tanks main job is not doing damage. There are lots of others on your team that do way more. Your job is to protect your teammates from taking damage. To attract and absorb, deflect or mitigate those attacks. The more damage you take from others, the better. When I make a tank the first attack I train is taunt (the main power of a tank). You see a boss headed for a no defense blaster? Taunt them away towards you. Sure, those attacks have taunt built in, but do players slot them for taunt? Nope... damage. They are misled. 

 

So when starting a new tank your focus should be on your defenses and only your defenses (your PRIMARY powers). Also add the fighting pool powers tough and possible weave if you are not resistance based. When a team first sees a large mob, they always hesitate (waiting for someone else to make the first attack - the alpha). This is when the tank is supposed to just jump into that mob and pull all of that damage to your TANK. Then the others can safely go in and eliminate those foes. Of course a healer's primary focus should be healing the tank. If the tank dies, the rest of the team will lose their main defense.

 

The best team will also have a "defensive" built tank,  a dedicated healer (no blasts), and controller or defender with lots of debuffs/buffs (no blasts). The remaining team should be your DPS. Unfortunately you rarely see this. 

The job of a Tank is not hitting people in the face.
Or standing there LETTING OTHERS hit THEM in the face.
A Tank is, primarily a combat controller.
And it does this through its Taunt/aggro generation mechanisms.

Not that a Tank CAN'T photo-bomb a villain's "Bust You In The Chops-cam".

Not that a Tank CAN'T put a massive hurtin' on their enemies.

Not that a Tank can't solo 90% of the content in the game.

But that's all GRAVY.

You get that as a BONUS for accomplishing your primary mission.

And @PyroNugget If you want bigger caps, USE BIGGER CAPS!

[Brawlin]

For 99% of the game a tanker is not needed in the first place and where it is needed it should play its role. I would rather clear a little slower and not have to deal with a dead tank leaving the AV's to run wild causing mass death. I have seen it to many times to count. I have cleared a lot of challenge 4 man content; 4* ITF, 4* ASF and Old school Freedom Phalanx.
 

Are you tanking content that needs the highest armor and HP #'s in the game? If not who cares what you're tanker is running in the first place. If you are tanking content with a team that needs one and you keep dying, it's a build/armor set problem and not a content problem.

[Xandyr]

22 hours ago, PyroNugget said:

 

 

ACROSS the board, you have hole, fill it with set bonuses, EVERY SINGLE SET IN THE GAME--ffs i need bigger caps so he can read.

 

 

Fixed that for ya @PyroNugget

[Hyperstrike]

35 minutes ago, Brawlin said:

For 99% of the game a tanker is not needed in the first place em.

This is 10,000% true...
FOR EVERY AT IN THE GAME.
There's no single AT that is "needed".

[Gobbledigook]

"your tank sucks you don't have Taunt" reply "but they are all dead :P"

 

"you are a tanker not a dps" reply "but they are all dead :P"

 

"you suck, you need to follow the leader (blaster) because they are all dying" reply " i don't Need to do anything i'm fine, maybe they should follow me :P"

 

🙂

 

 

[Brawlin]

20 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

This is 10,000% true...
FOR EVERY AT IN THE GAME.
There's no single AT that is "needed".

You are cherry picking so let me expand on that statement. Tanker is extremely specialized in what it does best. With how most teams are constructed you have incarnates and insps shoved down your throat or stacking cold corrupters to the point where a scrapper with taunt can do the tanks job. So a tank is not needed because every other melee AT does the tanks job but better in 99% of content. 

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

"your tank sucks you don't have Taunt" reply "but they are all dead :P"

 

"you are a tanker not a dps" reply "but they are all dead :P"

 

"you suck, you need to follow the leader (blaster) because they are all dying" reply " i don't Need to do anything i'm fine, maybe they should follow me :P"

 

🙂

 

 

Simply because you managed to kill everything doesn't mean your Tank does not suck.

😁

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, Brawlin said:

You are cherry picking so let me expand on that statement. Tanker is extremely specialized in what it does best. With how most teams are constructed you have incarnates and insps shoved down your throat or stacking cold corrupters to the point where a scrapper with taunt can do the tanks job. So a tank is not needed because every other melee AT does the tanks job but better in 99% of content. 

I'm just gonna have to politely disagree with you here.

[Brawlin]

4 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

I'm just gonna have to politely disagree with you here.

Well I can say I've had better discussions about tanks position in endgame teams. 

[Chronicler J]

On 5/13/2023 at 4:51 AM, Diantane said:

Players seem to think that a tank does incredible damage.

 

 

This game's level of difficulty is roughly Weenie Hut Junior. Little Timmy gets a dopamine rush when he crushes the paltry minions with his mighty Foot Stomp. Meanwhile, aggro is all over the place while Little Timmy is pretending to be a Scrapper. 

[Chronicler J]

52 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Simply because you managed to kill everything doesn't mean your Tank does not suck.

😁

 

Most Tankers should just play a Scrapper, because their aggro management is atrocious. We need a Tanker Aptitude Test that immediately re-rolls someone as Scrapper if they fail it. 

[Chronicler J]

6 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

There's no single AT that is "needed".

 

This mentality is what allowed Sentinels to exist. 

[ClawsandEffect]

On 5/13/2023 at 3:51 AM, Diantane said:

Players seem to think that a tank does incredible damage. I see players with several low tier, weak secondary attacks up front. Made an Invul tank one day and a player asked me if I had Super Strength. That is a very popular cookie cutter build. Does it do a lot of damage? Not compared to a scrapper or brute where those same attacks are their primary powers.

 

A tanks main job is not doing damage. There are lots of others on your team that do way more. Your job is to protect your teammates from taking damage. To attract and absorb, deflect or mitigate those attacks. The more damage you take from others, the better. When I make a tank the first attack I train is taunt (the main power of a tank). You see a boss headed for a no defense blaster? Taunt them away towards you. Sure, those attacks have taunt built in, but do players slot them for taunt? Nope... damage. They are misled. 

 

So when starting a new tank your focus should be on your defenses and only your defenses (your PRIMARY powers). Also add the fighting pool powers tough and possible weave if you are not resistance based. When a team first sees a large mob, they always hesitate (waiting for someone else to make the first attack - the alpha). This is when the tank is supposed to just jump into that mob and pull all of that damage to your TANK. Then the others can safely go in and eliminate those foes. Of course a healer's primary focus should be healing the tank. If the tank dies, the rest of the team will lose their main defense.

 

The best team will also have a "defensive" built tank,  a dedicated healer (no blasts), and controller or defender with lots of debuffs/buffs (no blasts). The remaining team should be your DPS. Unfortunately you rarely see this. 

 

You used a lot of words there to tell us you don't understand how this game works. 

 

What you said there might be true in some other MMOs where having a role to play means you suck at doing literally anything else. That's not true here. 

 

A good tank should be balanced between offense and defense. If you swing it too far towards defense you'll have dead teammates because they inevitably agroed more than the agro cap and you were tar-pitted in a spawn you couldn't kill. Too far toward offense and you have dead teammates because you either couldn't manage the agro or couldn't survive it. 

 

And the best teams are the ones on which a dedicated healer with no blasts is utterly useless, because no one is taking enough damage to necessitate healing being someone's only job. 

[Hyperstrike]

5 hours ago, Chronicler J said:

 

This mentality is what allowed Sentinels to exist. 

And you say this as if it's a Bad Thing.

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, ClawsandEffect said:

 

You used a lot of words there to tell us you don't understand how this game works. 

 

What you said there might be true in some other MMOs where having a role to play means you suck at doing literally anything else. That's not true here. 

 

A good tank should be balanced between offense and defense. If you swing it too far towards defense you'll have dead teammates because they inevitably agroed more than the agro cap and you were tar-pitted in a spawn you couldn't kill. Too far toward offense and you have dead teammates because you either couldn't manage the agro or couldn't survive it. 

 

And the best teams are the ones on which a dedicated healer with no blasts is utterly useless, because no one is taking enough damage to necessitate healing being someone's only job. 

Then there's me.  Who defaults to "When in doubt, TANK IT OUT!" on EVERYTHING.

The FOOBAR part of that is, I've actually managed to make it work, more often than not...

😉