Making the "Weave" power more accessible

[Shiro-Nethermore]

My suggestion is to remove the requirement to have boxing or kick before acquiring the weave ability in the fighting tree.
 I see a lot of player builds that utilize weave but then don't even put handsets into boxing which they only took because they had to.
 So if it is at all possible I think it would make the game there's even only just a tiny bit more fun to have this change.

Thank you for your time

 

[Psyonico]

What about the 2 prior power requirement for it? Are we just making weave available at level 4? Also, what about every other power pool that has a 2 power requirement (looking at the likes of Rune of Protection, for example)

 

You're opening up a can of worms called power creep, which is already probably in this game.

[SwitchFade]

No vote, sorry.

[Rudra]

Hard no vote here. That is power creep and we already have too much power creep in the game.

[Shiro-Nethermore]

My thinking behind this is partly that it seems weird to have to take a more or less useless Power just to get one that works. should weave really have to cost two whole power slots to get? and its not like this would just be for one person we would all gain from it so its not like its going to make it unfair and as end game content is as it is you almost cant take part in it with out Weave in your build

you also have things like Haste and combat jumping that are also both in most every build and neither require two whole powers slots to get 

[Rudra]

26 minutes ago, Shiro-Nethermore said:

My thinking behind this is partly that it seems weird to have to take a more or less useless Power just to get one that works. should weave really have to cost two whole power slots to get? and its not like this would just be for one person we would all gain from it so its not like its going to make it unfair and as end game content is as it is you almost cant take part in it with out Weave in your build

you also have things like Haste and combat jumping that are also both in most every build and neither require two whole powers slots to get 

The Holy Quad is most definitely not necessary for end game content. Especially if you have an even remotely competent team.

 

Combat Jumping grants a +1.75% defense buff against all attacks at base value. (Using a Blaster as a reference.)

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.leaping.combat_jumping&at=blaster

 

Weave grants a +3.5% defense buff against all attacks at base value. (Still using a Blaster as a reference.)

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.fighting.weave&at=blaster

 

So Weave is twice as effective as Combat Jumping. This is compensated for in its higher END cost and the requirements to unlock.

[Shiro-Nethermore]

how about this then. the travel powers like flying speed and Super Jump could maybe be made to as a sort of universal replacement for one of those requirements this way you get it with out getting any stronger and the power slot wouldnt be waisted . its just an idea 

[Rudra]

31 minutes ago, Shiro-Nethermore said:

how about this then. the travel powers like flying speed and Super Jump could maybe be made to as a sort of universal replacement for one of those requirements this way you get it with out getting any stronger and the power slot wouldnt be waisted . its just an idea 

It's the fighting pool, not a travel pool. It also already has its 5 powers. What travel power would even fit into a fighting pool anyway? Fighting isn't about being able to run fast, teleport, fly, jump superhuman distances, tunnel underground, or swing from a line. (And if you're asking for other pools to act as suitable sub prerequisite picks, my answer is still going to be a hard no.)

 

Edit: As an aside, the power pools were meant to enable players to fill gaps in their characters. So fighting was available so that Controllers and Defenders could fit some melee attacks into their builds and so that Blasters, Controllers, and Defenders could fit some defense into their builds. I fully understand that pretty much everyone takes it on all ATs, which is fine. The current use of the power pools, even the early use of the power pools, didn't align with what the devs had intended. That was the original intent though. So that was how (and why) the pools were built the way they are.

 

Edit again: Also, that change would very much still make characters stronger. Currently, if you want to fly, you have to invest in the Flight or Sorcery pools. If you want to be a super fast runner, you have to invest in the Speed or Experimentation pools. If you want to teleport you have to invest in the Teleport pool. If you want superhuman jumping, you have to invest in the Leaping or Force of Will pools. So if you add a travel power to the fighting pool, that frees up a power pool pick that can now be devoted to other pools and their powers to better empower your character. So that argument is a wash too.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Rudra

[TheZag]

Most players take a travel power in their build.  Using that as a requirement is almost the same as having no requirement for weave.  I have 1 build on 1 character that doesnt have a travel power.

 

Removing the requirements from any pool opens the door for people to ask for more pools to get the same treatment.  Its called power creep because it happens slowly over time.  Before you realize,  everyone will get access to every power at lvl 1,  there will be a purple enhancement for free in every slot and accolade powers will cost 500 inf at the transact 4 victory store.  Its not as ridiculous as it sounds when you scroll back through the suggestion forum and it starts with just a little power creep being ok.

 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

ability/skill/talent/power trees are part of how many RPG's work. 

Crosspunch was created to address this very issue and it does so pretty well (if u happen to use it).

I'd rather see some more defense powers similar to weave in the EPP (most are resists)

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Shiro-Nethermore said:

My thinking behind this is partly that it seems weird to have to take a more or less useless Power just to get one that works. should weave really have to cost two whole power slots to get? and its not like this would just be for one person we would all gain from it so its not like its going to make it unfair and as end game content is as it is you almost cant take part in it with out Weave in your build

 

 

Really?

 

*Looks at allllllll my alts on multiple accounts without weave*

 

Wonder what I've been doing with those incarnated 50s, then.

[Aracknight]

Right.  Fighters never run long distances(end) or sprints (running) or skip rope or broad or high jump as part of their training. 

 

Rocky is a lie.

 

But kudos to the consistency of the small mob of you continuing to wave that flag of shitcanning ideas in the name of your, not our, not the devs, idea of power creep.

[Rudra]

33 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

Right.  Fighters never run long distances(end) or sprints (running) or skip rope or broad or high jump as part of their training. 

 

Rocky is a lie.

 

But kudos to the consistency of the small mob of you continuing to wave that flag of shitcanning ideas in the name of your, not our, not the devs, idea of power creep.

You are confusing fitness training, which is important to a professional athlete/fighter, to learning to fight. Places that teach how to fight, teach how to fight. They expect you to manage your own fitness. Hence, the Fitness pool which was made inherent and the Fighting pool.

 

Let's look at Rocky. A boxer is taught the different punches and footwork. Moving around the sandbag while boxing. Shifting their position while hitting the speedbag. Even jump roping to help boost their stamina. They aren't taken outside and made to run marathons. They don't train for Olympic long jumps. Individuals may pursue such additional training because it helps them in the long term, but it is not endemic boxing.

 

Edit: And movies like the Rocky series and similar anime are about champions that go well above and beyond what others do because they are champions. Which is already reflected in the already inherent Fitness pool.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Rudra

[kelika2]

Either that or

Give Boxing or Kick a defense buff when you use it while Weave is on.  Much like Storm Kick giving tanks and brutes defense.

This way Boxing or Kick can at the very least be Defense Set mules.

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

I'd rather see some more defense powers similar to weave in the EPP (most are resists)

I'd also like to see more power pools with resistance powers in them 😉

[Ston]

59 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

Right.  Fighters never run long distances(end) or sprints (running) or skip rope or broad or high jump as part of their training. 

 

Rocky is a lie.

 

But kudos to the consistency of the small mob of you continuing to wave that flag of shitcanning ideas in the name of your, not our, not the devs, idea of power creep.

 

It’s not about power creep. It’s about completely changing the way the game works. 

 

Weave is meant to be unlocked. It’s like saying Scrappers should get Fire Ball without any other Blaze Mastery powers.

[honoroit]

fighting pool is near mandatory on a whole lot of builds. 

 

in that respect, having it like fitness would be nice.

[FupDup]

Fitness was made inherent because the early game was nearly unplayable without Stamina due to overtuned endurance costs on everything. You'd throw out like 2 or 3 basic attacks then have to start huffing and puffing because you're as exhausted as if you just ran two marathons back to back. 

 

The game is playable without Fighting. You'll generally be quite a bit weaker, but it's playable. 

 

When it comes to this pool I'd just like a better T1 power like a throwing knife or axe. Alternatively, the only way I could entertain the notion of Tough/Weave without prerequisites is if they performed at much weaker levels when taken standalone. 

[Shiro-Nethermore]

i mean just having all of the fighting skills as inherent may be an idea as if you look at it in a lore way why would any one be a super hero with out knowing how to fight? lol 

[Rudra]

No more inherent power pools. You just went from power creep to power race.

 

Edit: There are also several super characters in comics that are decidedly unfit and can't hold out for long in a fight, but Fitness was already made inherent. There are several super characters in comics that can't fight too. Look at Teen Titans, not the Go! version. At the start, whenever Raven was pressed in melee, she failed. She relied on her magic as offense and defense. Later on, she started showing marked improvement in her hand-to-hand capability. Most likely because she was training with the other Titans to make up for her lack of training prior  and because the Titans had a competitive streak in their obstacle runs.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Rudra

[Aracknight]

You're absolutely right.  Fighting won't make you be able to run faster than a car or jump over a building.

 

That's reserved for the ability to turn kinda invisible, Infiltration.  Makes much more sense.

 

 

[honoroit]

inherent fighting pool, this one has it. just wanna build flexible, not pattern 3x choices to it, and unbar 'kick'.

[wjrasmussen]

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

Hard no vote here. That is power creep and we already have too much power creep in the game.

Triple hard and a no vote.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, honoroit said:

inherent fighting pool, this one has it. just wanna build flexible, not pattern 3x choices to it, and unbar 'kick'.

The Fighting pool is not "near mandatory" for any builds. It is part of the Holy Quad, and that is the meta, but it is not even remotely mandatory or necessary for anything in the game. Nothing will change my mind short of actual proof of content that requires players take the Fighting pool or be guaranteed to fail at it. (And before anyone cites PvP, I mean actual game content. Missions/arcs the characters do. [Edit: And you can't just crank up the difficulty. The difficulty has to be +0/x1. So show me a mission where at +0/x1, it is impossible to do without the Fighting pool by any character. Then I might accept that it is "near mandatory".]) No more inherent power pools.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct difficulty.

[honoroit]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The Fighting pool is not "near mandatory" for any builds. It is part of the Holy Quad, and that is the meta, but it is not even remotely mandatory or necessary for anything in the game. Nothing will change my mind short of actual proof of content that requires players take the Fighting pool or be guaranteed to fail at it. (And before anyone cites PvP, I mean actual game content. Missions/arcs the characters do. [Edit: And you can't just crank up the difficulty. The difficulty has to be +1/x1. So show me a mission where at +1/x1, it is impossible to do without the Fighting pool by any character. Then I might accept that it is "near mandatory".]) No more inherent power pools.

can tough and weave be pick 1 and 2?  kick is pure filler.

 

we got all kinds of power tiers changed around for AT sets.