Lets talk Regeneration Set

[Marine X]

I have an Incarnate Regen Brute; he can be really good, then suddenly not. The -regen hole can surprise you if you aren't paying attention. I just look at it as the way things are in Comic Books. You don't always get to pick what powers you get unless you are a Technologically based hero. That being said, you are not going to have the Beast taking on Galactus or Daredevil fighting the Abomination. Some Heroes are of Epic levels of power and some are not. This has always been the biggest flaw in COH, it allows people to end up with OP Characters using almost any AT or set. How would characters like Hawkeye, Spiderman, Angel, Black Widow, etc fare in the COH universe, not well if you only gave them their published abilities. We can build toons and then plug the holes with Pool Powers, Epic Powers, Patron Powers, P2W Powers and Incarnates in a way comic characters can't, and become steamrolling agents of death.

I think the Regen Nerfs have proven to be a huge mistake, and it shows. It has become the ongoing example of too much fiddling with a set to the point it has lost what made it work. Willpower is so similar and an effective set, but doesn't have all the -Regen holes. Maybe someday they'll get around to fixing it, but after what, 23 Issues?, I wouldn't hold my breath. 

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Marine X said:

I have an Incarnate Regen Brute; he can be really good, then suddenly not.

 

+1

 

 

[Psi-bolt]

8 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

Don't worry, Regen used to be my jive, I played the living hell out of it. So when people say things like, "It is a set that is not for everybody" I eye roll at that statement, and that is putting it extremely kindly. It doesn't take rocket science to play the set. I explained the reason why I think players are talking the set up and I have seen no reason to change my mind. Using +4 x8 Council to talk up Regen's survival is like me saying that I am a great fighter because I can whoop little kids at the playground...when I am a grown adult. The talking point doesn't hold it's own very well. The set is not rocket science what-so-ever, so don't think it takes some type of mystical understanding of the set to play the set like some will have you believe. The set is complete and utter garbage, end of story.

 

Honestly, hyperbole like this is where you lose me.  Saying that ANY set that can handle +4/x8 spawns of ANY faction is "complete and utter garbage" is just over the top.  It has problems, it's not for everyone, certainly it's not for you anymore.    Regen which gets most of its protection in a reactive manner is not ever going to be as good as some other sets.  Even Issue 1 Regen MAY just barely survive the standard you've set for it.  

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Psi-bolt

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Honestly, hyperbole like this is where you lose me.  Saying that ANY set that can handle +4/x8 spawns of ANY faction is "complete and utter garbage" is just over the top.  I've played this set for nearly 20 years.  It has problems, it's not for everyone, certainly it's not for you anymore.    Regen which gets most of its protection in a reactive manner is not ever going to be as good as some other sets.  Even Issue 1 Regen MAY just barely survive the standard you've set for it.  

 

 

 

Hyperbole, eh? It's all that? Sure thing, guess we will just have to agree to disagree, I stand by my statement, the set is complete shit.

[cranebump]

Regen on a melee is definitely not as fun as on a Sent, I will say that. Thanks to this discussion, I thought, "Well, sure, lemme mess with this whole regen thing." Did I pick something that made sense. No I did not.:-) I went with Ice Melee/Regen, focusing on fast-recharging the Ice Patch. Been running on 0/x3 solo. I can keep 2 overlapping patches up at L20, but taking things down takes a LONG time, since I skipped the cone (I have Sands of Mu, and will probably take Cross Punch, but we'll see). I picked up Tough/Weave, and am building IO sets in the various powers. My goal is get this guy perma-hastened, and just slowwwwwww-Flippy-Flop-BAPBAPBAPBAPBAP! everything before it can respond. That said, having to go outside the main Def set for any sort of basic protection makes this a pain. And my selection of Ice is definitely not the wisest choice. But this is just experimental. And I was able to strip some useful IO's from another retired toon, and seed this guy. But...that sorta makes the point at how, er, not easy Regen is. You need sets and seed money, and lots and lots of Cheetos...er, yeah...

Edited September 24, 2023 by cranebump

[Psi-bolt]

32 minutes ago, cranebump said:

Regen on a melee is definitely not as fun as on a Sent, I will say that. Thanks to this discussion, I thought, "Well, sure, lemme mess with this whole regen thing." Did I pick something that made sense. No I did not.:-) I went with Ice Melle/Regen, focusing on fast-recharging the Ice Patch. Been running on 0/x3 solo. I can keep 2 overlapping patches up at L20, but taking things down takes a LONG time, since I skipped the cone (I have Sands of Mu, and will probably take Cross Punch, but we'll see). I picked up Tough/Weave, and am building IO sets in the various powers. My goal is get this guy perma-hastened, and just slowwwwwww-Flippy-Flop-BAPBAPBAPBAPBAP! everything before it can respond. That said, having to go outside the main Def set for any sort of basic protection makes this a pain. And my selection of Ice is definitely not the wisest choice. But this is just experimental. And I was able to strip some useful IO's from another retired toon, and seed this guy. But...that sorta makes the point at how, er, not easy Regen is. You need sets and seed money, and lots and lote of Cheetos...er, yeah...

 

I have an Ice/Regen Scrapper.  I created with the same idea as you did.  I thought it was survivable enough, but yes I thought it was much too slow at killing for a Scrapper.  My Ice/Regen Sentinel is more fun.

[Without_Pause]

Ice Melee is cheat code for /regen though. Ice Patch mitigates so much incoming damage even if the damage is lower, that it simply won't matter. I've street swept +5s in my 20s on a couple different builds simply due to Ice Patch.

[Solarverse]

19 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

I have an Ice/Regen Scrapper.  I created with the same idea as you did.  I thought it was survivable enough, but yes I thought it was much too slow at killing for a Scrapper.  My Ice/Regen Sentinel is more fun.

 

Regen on a Sent from what I keep hearing isn't that bad. I have yet to try it because I don't play Sents, but, let me ask you, in your opinion, how would Regen play if that was proliferated over to Scrappers...theoretically of course?

[Psi-bolt]

44 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

Regen on a Sent from what I keep hearing isn't that bad. I have yet to try it because I don't play Sents, but, let me ask you, in your opinion, how would Regen play if that was proliferated over to Scrappers...theoretically of course?

 

It would be...fine.  Still not great, but much better than it is now.  The issue I have with Regen is probably the same as everyone else's, the set is too focused on reacting to damage instead of protecting you from being damaged.  Sentinel Instant healing helps with that, but the concern that I have with absorb shields is that it's not as easy to stack different sources to improve your mitigation like with defense and resistance.

 

For Sentinels, this is almost irrelevant because they don't draw as much damage as melee characters.  

 

If I were to be allowed to "fix" Regen, my main goal would be to turn Instant Healing to a power similar to Invincibility or Rise to the Challenge.  I.e. a power that scales it's mitigation.  Thus it could be more potent and would work better in a set like Regen that, to your point, doesn't need help with easier content.   What kind of mitigation wouldn't be super important, but I think for everyone to really enjoy the set again it would have to be resistance or defense.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Psi-bolt

[cranebump]

57 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

I have an Ice/Regen Scrapper.  I created with the same idea as you did.  I thought it was survivable enough, but yes I thought it was much too slow at killing for a Scrapper.  My Ice/Regen Sentinel is more fun.

First thing I got in my 20s was the Easton arc. Lots of Tsoo. The slowness of it was readily apparent if I got more than one Sorc in the spawn. But the patch(es) did keep everything flopping, so, eventually I could handle them. Only trouble spots where when I had Sorc's active, and their KM ATs popped in. I'd be trying to hammer the healer, and I'd get slammed every now and then by the various Leopards and such. Click heal once/mob when that happened, and DID have to gobble some Insps. Worked through the successive "assassination" attempts in Easton (3 good-sized mobs), since they came straight to me and landed in the Ice Patch.

 

My END was never really critically low. Did pick up Cross Punch, which helped a great deal. I've slotted the Fighting attacks with additional Disorient. Still, this is just at +0/x3. I'd cruise at default, but that's true for about every AT/Powerset in the game now. 

 

And -- this is weird, actually - due to the random nature of Slicker Bell's journey, I didn't hit any Arachnos till L22 (Talos radio mish).  No issues there, save the floating bots. They enjoyed shooting me in the ass while I was taking on the "flippers.":-) 

 

Wondering about getting Hasten, since still no travel power, and I can grab SS along with it. And have not yet targeted a possible Epic powerset. It's such a weird way to play that everything is foreign to me, stylistically. It's almost like I'm a soft control Dom (for lack of a better desc).

[Spaghetti Betty]

Regen is fun!

[Solarverse]

8 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Regen is fun!

 

So is having your head flushed down a toilet.  😉

[Spaghetti Betty]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

So is having your head flushed down a toilet.  😉

Try using Moment of Glory first next time!

[Solarverse]

47 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Try using Moment of Glory first next time!

 

lol, an extremely small moment.  😜

Edited September 24, 2023 by Solarverse

[Psi-bolt]

17 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

lol, an extremely small moment.  😜

 

No quarrel with your point here, but I remember when I was playing SWTOR and PvPing regularly if there were a power like MoG given to any class, there would have been a riot talking about how broken and unfair it is.  City of Heroes is a funny but deeply odd game.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

No quarrel with your point here, but I remember when I was playing SWTOR and PvPing regularly if there were a power like MoG given to any class, there would have been a riot talking about how broken and unfair it is.  City of Heroes is a funny but deeply odd game.

 

I used to love that game until the DoT nerf (long before the Cartel Market thing started and the nerf to the trees and how you could mix and match abilities from those trees) to Annihilation Sentinels came along. After that, I was gone. I played Fatman, the PvP server, so those DoTs meant a lot to me, heh.

[Snarky]

Let us discuss the history and future of Regeneration.

[Psi-bolt]

33 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Let us discuss the history and future of Regeneration.

The darn horse took Revive, Snarky.  It’s not our fault it keeps coming back for more.

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

The darn horse took Revive, Snarky.  It’s not our fault it keeps coming back for more.

Fair enough.  Carry on

[Black Zot]

Regen's survivability, in my experience, has always been kind of a binary thing.  If your self-healing matches or exceeds incoming damage, you're immortal.  The minute damage spikes above your hp recovery, you pop like a balloon.  Kind of makes it tough to balance one way or the other, although its current state is almost certainly bottom-tier among armor sets.

 

I do think the first step to bringing Regen "up to scratch" would be more debuff resistance.  People have been pointing out its current numbers are in the 15-25% range, which is utterly laughable in this game.  With no native defense or resistance, Regen eats the full brunt of enemy attacks and relies on its self-healing (both active and passive) to stay upright.  The set has no "safety margin" for absorbing the effects of debuffs.  -Heal/-regen shuts the set down outright.  Slow disables the active-healing portion of the set at times you can't afford it.  -Def/-res effects can potentially double incoming damage (see above notes about damage spiking).

 

Significantly boosting debuff resist would address most of the above issues without stepping on any other sets' toes or changing the core theme of the Regen set.  It's no silver bullet, but it would help.

[A Cat]

Having never played Regen, which makes these observations worthless, it seems that it has no offensive boosts, and being click heavy, activity reduces DPS, compared to a vanilla armor set. If it is a fragile glass cannon, it should at least not get in the way of your damage, and ideally enhance it with +recharge and/or +damage. +Recharge would be synergistic with the clicks you need to stay alive. Maybe a scaling +recharge as you take damage or something. Even if the weakness of the survivability is fixed, it would still be worse since then it would be only as survivable as others but damaging to your own DPS. 

[Troo]

12 hours ago, A Cat said:

Having never played Regen, which makes these observations worthless, it seems that it has no offensive boosts, and being click heavy

 

it actually not that click heavy but it can interrupt attack chains that cycle forever from time to time.

 

soo you're right.

 

Fast Healing = Auto

Reconstruction = 20 Sec

Quick Recovery = Auto

Dull Pain = 120 Sec

Integration = Toggle

Resilience = Auto

Instant Healing = 200+ Sec

Moment of Glory = 120 Sec

 

the dps impact of clicks in regular fights (non solo/av) is minimal.

[Without_Pause]

Someone must have been reading this thread and made a Ice/regen Scrapper in Excel. I read their bio, and it implied they were trying out the build and they were sorry for any failing it had, or some such language. I got a chuckle out of it. 

[Solarverse]

19 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Someone must have been reading this thread and made a Ice/regen Scrapper in Excel. I read their bio, and it implied they were trying out the build and they were sorry for any failing it had, or some such language. I got a chuckle out of it. 

 

Wasn't me! lol, if I play the set at all, it will be a remake of my original back on live, a Dark/Regen Scrapper. I wonder how that build will go for him though. I'm sure it will be survivable, Ice Patch is an awesome mitigation tool.

[Without_Pause]

I did a quick build run through converting my Claws/regen Scrapper on Live to a Brute here as close to as is. S/L Res are near 80%. Everything outside of Toxic is the 30s. Toxic is 46.2%. The best Def numbers came from positions but Melee was the only one that hit 30%. R/AoE were 21% and 17.2%. S/L was the only typed Def to hit 20%. Kat/regen would at least be tolerable with DA giving 15% Melee Def. At this point I would start to really play around with powers to see even if taking mule type powers made things work better. Lets say EA has a Psy whole. I can get D/R numbers to be 24.9% and 38.8%. For Regen, those are currently 17.2% and 31.2%. Switch it to a ranged attack and EA still wins out.