Let's Talk About the Holy Trinity

[macskull]

I'm a little confused by the OP asserting they miss the holy trinity in this game when this game never had it to begin with. There was only one "healing" set in the game at launch and 20 years later you can say there's two, maybe three, but the healing from those sets has never been the primary draw from a gameplay standpoint. The basic combat mechanics of this game have been virtually unchanged since launch and they're so simplistic that stacking buffs and debuffs has made healing an afterthought since the get-go. "Healers" in this game are, and have always been, noob traps. Healing is an acceptable form of damage mitigation at lower levels where players don't have key powers, the slots for the powers they do have, or enough enhancements to fill those slots, but by the time you get out of the low 20s (especially now that higher-tier powers are available earlier) it's kind of unnecessary outside of niche content, and other support sets offer strong buff/debuff ability while also providing enough healing for those occasions where it's needed.

 

Perhaps what OP is really missing is team diversity and an era where low-DPS buff and debuff characters had an actual role, and I think they might have a point there, but I would argue Issue 18 kind of blew the doors off team AT diversity once you were able to play any AT on either side. Prior to Issue 18 if I wanted to play a buff/debuff character blueside I would roll a Defender or Controller because those were my options, but once that barrier went away there wasn't really much of a reason for me to not simply roll a Corruptor. The same thing happened with Tankers and Brutes: Tankers were pretty much dead in the water compared to Brutes until Tankers got turbo-buffed, and now it's Brutes that lack identity.

[TheZag]

Back on my server there were tons of teams always looking for tanks and empathy.  The tri wasnt necessary but it certainly existed for alot of people.  But the reason i feel why teams were more slow/coordinated was because 3 white minions were deadly.  We would coordinate who would hold what mobs and which would be tanked and what ones to kill first just so we could survive the pull.  With the toggle exclusivity removal and release of invention sets and the inclusion of the actual stats of the powers (back then they didnt show how much defense a power granted),  players started to maximize their stats.  Soon a group of 16 purple mobs was only as dangerous as 3 white mobs and single players could carry whole teams.  Teams became chaotic when the enemies were no longer a threat.  It could be possible that specific new content require a higher degree of coordination but i think its not likely.

 

[Solarverse]

Okay, I can see a lot of you aren't understanding what I am saying by Holy Trinity. Holy Trinity in this game goes beyond just Tank, Healer and DPS. In this game, the Holy Trinity is just a phrase used to describe a well balanced team who plays by a set of rules to keep the team running smoothly so that the team can get through difficult content. What this means, is Tank gathers mobs, Controllers lock those mobs down once they are stacked on Tank, Debuffers do their Debuffing and then DPS launch their assault and healers healed, be it Kin, Dark or Emp Defenders. A well balanced team could consist of a few different combinations. Let's take Positron's Task Force (the original) for an example. In the days of the old, you couldn't set mission levels and Clockwork King did not die so easily. You couldn't take him down in mere seconds like you can today. Not just any Tank could Tank him either. Fire Tanks fell hard against Clockwork King for example, however not limited to.

 

Some of you are saying that the Holy Trinity never existed, well built teams were never needed...well, I remember it very differently than you do. I remember Stone Tanks in those days were really the only Tanks that could main Tank Clockwork King because Stone Tanks were the only ones who had Defense to Psionics. Any other Tank would crumble in seconds. If you could not find a Stone Tank, then you covered that hole by having buffers on the team to buff the living hell out of whatever Tank you had available. That team would often require Rad Defenders, HEALERS (not sure why that word would even bother somebody...) Controllers and DPS. A typical team in those days would be 1 Tank, 1 Scrapper, 1 Controller, 2 Blasters, 1 Healer, 1 Debuffer and 1 Buffer. That was your Holy Trinity. You all thinking Holy Trinity in reference to this game meaning Tank, Heals and DPS only are mistaken. Also, I am not the one who started using this word to describe the old ways of City of Heroes, many of you are the ones who started to use that in reference to the game...I simply adopted the word since it has been used on these forums more times than I can count.

I find it odd how none of you remember such game play in this game, as if it just never happened. I'm wondering, selective memory? In my experience, it was the absolute most common game play. Now, this did not apply to Story Arcs, in Story Arcs you could pretty much build whatever type of a team, this Holy Trinity style game play primarily applied to TF's, since you could not adjust the level of the TF's in those days. It wasn't an option. You didn't get to set it to +0 and just face roll through the mobs. You had to build a good team. I question the validity or memory of those who are saying otherwise because it goes completely against my experience of this game back then. Those were the days when you either played by the rules or you were kicked from the team. I can't imagine the way people play this game today ever flying in those days...it just wouldn't happen. People preferred order, people HATED knock back and people would kick Controllers who insta locked mobs before the Tank could stack them. Remember when people were actually extremely grateful for a Healer and actually thanked them for their heals? I do...

Now, perhaps you are remembering times from like-minded players in your SG's? I don't think it is a server thing because I played on Justice, Protector and Freedom in those days and it was the same on all three of those servers. I also primarily PUGed, I had an SG, played with them whenever possible, but primarily PUGed in those days just as I do today.

When you say the Holy Trinity never existed, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree because I know damn well it existed and it was the norm of game play style. I'm not comprehending how your experience could be different than mine if you PUGed at all. So it must be because you only teamed with friends or something? I'm sure there is some logical explanation as to why I remember this but you do not. Maybe it was because over the years I watched it crumble due to power creep and changes to the game and hated it, where most of you welcomed those changes that I hated so much...so from your perspective, it didn't matter as much to you as it did to me? Hell, your guess is as good as mine. However, I know it existed and I know it was what was expected of you if you joined somebody's team. People who did not play in this way were often kicked from the teams...PUG teams. So who knows.

 

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, macskull said:

I'm a little confused by the OP asserting they miss the holy trinity in this game when this game never had it to begin with. There was only one "healing" set in the game at launch and 20 years later you can say there's two, maybe three, but the healing from those sets has never been the primary draw from a gameplay standpoint. The basic combat mechanics of this game have been virtually unchanged since launch and they're so simplistic that stacking buffs and debuffs has made healing an afterthought since the get-go. "Healers" in this game are, and have always been, noob traps. Healing is an acceptable form of damage mitigation at lower levels where players don't have key powers, the slots for the powers they do have, or enough enhancements to fill those slots, but by the time you get out of the low 20s (especially now that higher-tier powers are available earlier) it's kind of unnecessary outside of niche content, and other support sets offer strong buff/debuff ability while also providing enough healing for those occasions where it's needed.

 

Perhaps what OP is really missing is team diversity and an era where low-DPS buff and debuff characters had an actual role, and I think they might have a point there, but I would argue Issue 18 kind of blew the doors off team AT diversity once you were able to play any AT on either side. Prior to Issue 18 if I wanted to play a buff/debuff character blueside I would roll a Defender or Controller because those were my options, but once that barrier went away there wasn't really much of a reason for me to not simply roll a Corruptor. The same thing happened with Tankers and Brutes: Tankers were pretty much dead in the water compared to Brutes until Tankers got turbo-buffed, and now it's Brutes that lack identity.

 

But it did have it, see above. Maybe for whatever reason there is a selective definition being applied to the word Holy Trinity. When ever a player asks for something in the suggestion forums something that sounds like it is geared toward bringing back the old ways of playing this game, players on this board are extremely quick to say, "We don't want the Holy Trinity back in this game." So I fail to understand how now suddenly it never existed? This is why I say it is selective definition, much like selective hearing or selective memory.

 

Also, that is what Healers have turned in to...that was not always the case. And I stand by that 100%.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Solarverse

[Snarky]

15 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Okay, I can see a lot of you aren't understanding what I am saying by Holy Trinity. Holy Trinity in this game goes beyond just Tank, Healer and DPS. In this game, the Holy Trinity is just a phrase used to describe a well balanced team who plays by a set of rules to keep the team running smoothly so that the team can get through difficult content. What this means, is Tank gathers mobs, Controllers lock those mobs down once they are stacked on Tank, Debuffers do their Debuffing and then DPS launch their assault and healers healed, be it Kin, Dark or Emp Defenders. A well balanced team could consist of a few different combinations. Let's take Positron's Task Force (the original) for an example. In the days of the old, you couldn't set mission levels and Clockwork King did not die so easily. You couldn't take him down in mere seconds like you can today. Not just any Tank could Tank him either. Fire Tanks fell hard against Clockwork King for example, however not limited to.

 

Some of you are saying that the Holy Trinity never existed, well built teams were never needed...well, I remember it very differently than you do. I remember Stone Tanks in those days were really the only Tanks that could main Tank Clockwork King because Stone Tanks were the only ones who had Defense to Psionics. Any other Tank would crumble in seconds. If you could not find a Stone Tank, then you covered that hole by having buffers on the team to buff the living hell out of whatever Tank you had available. That team would often require Rad Defenders, HEALERS (not sure why that word would even bother somebody...) Controllers and DPS. A typical team in those days would be 1 Tank, 1 Scrapper, 1 Controller, 2 Blasters, 1 Healer, 1 Debuffer and 1 Buffer. That was your Holy Trinity. You all thinking Holy Trinity in reference to this game meaning Tank, Heals and DPS only are mistaken. Also, I am not the one who started using this word to describe the old ways of City of Heroes, many of you are the ones who started to use that in reference to the game...I simply adopted the word since it has been used on these forums more times than I can count.

I find it odd how none of you remember such game play in this game, as if it just never happened. I'm wondering, selective memory? In my experience, it was the absolute most common game play. Now, this did not apply to Story Arcs, in Story Arcs you could pretty much build whatever type of a team, this Holy Trinity style game play primarily applied to TF's, since you could not adjust the level of the TF's in those days. It wasn't an option. You didn't get to set it to +0 and just face roll through the mobs. You had to build a good team. I question the validity or memory of those who are saying otherwise because it goes completely against my experience of this game back then. Those were the days when you either played by the rules or you were kicked from the team. I can't imagine the way people play this game today ever flying in those days...it just wouldn't happen. People preferred order, people HATED knock back and people would kick Controllers who insta locked mobs before the Tank could stack them. Remember when people were actually extremely grateful for a Healer and actually thanked them for their heals? I do...

Now, perhaps you are remembering times from like-minded players in your SG's? I don't think it is a server thing because I played on Justice, Protector and Freedom in those days and it was the same on all three of those servers. I also primarily PUGed, I had an SG, played with them whenever possible, but primarily PUGed in those days just as I do today.

When you say the Holy Trinity never existed, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree because I know damn well it existed and it was the norm of game play style. I'm not comprehending how your experience could be different than mine if you PUGed at all. So it must be because you only teamed with friends or something? I'm sure there is some logical explanation as to why I remember this but you do not. Maybe it was because over the years I watched it crumble due to power creep and changes to the game and hated it, where most of you welcomed those changes that I hated so much...so from your perspective, it didn't matter as much to you as it did to me? Hell, your guess is as good as mine. However, I know it existed and I know it was what was expected of you if you joined somebody's team. People who did not play in this way were often kicked from the teams...PUG teams. So who knows.

 

You lost me at well balanced…. I run a Brute!

[Solarverse]

6 minutes ago, Snarky said:

You lost me at well balanced…. I run a Brute!

 

To be fair, Brutes did not even exist back then, so it's perfectly okay, Snarky, lol.

[MoonSheep]

13 hours ago, Solarverse said:

This may be something most of you disagree with today, but hear me out...once upon a time, most would not have disagreed with me when this game first came out. This is not an attack on anyone, but rather a topic gives some players some insight on how players who loved the Holy Trinity feels about the way the game was changed due to the players who caused that Holy Trinity to end, and why when some players hit hard on players who do prefer order and Holy Trinity, it stings...more than you could possibly understand.

 

You know something that I don't really understand? When this game came out, this game was the absolute perfect game for me, it had everything I wanted in it, it was a game built around the Holy Trinity game play in which forced cooperative game styles rather than chaos. It was like this straight out of the box. People bought the game, played the game, loved the game. Then, for whatever reason, other people bought the game, hated the game, then came to the forums and demanded the game's Holy Trinity be replaced, which threatened to end the order of play style this game once had. Of course in those days, that was met with a lot of resistance from the players who played in those days, however, the players who wanted the Holy Trinity game style replaced, kept on and kept on until one day, the Devs finally caved in to the nonstop demands and pressure from this vocal crowd. Because of this, we have what the game is today; chaos.

What I don't understand, is if you play a game and you don't like it, why demand a change on to those who do like it? Now, they can claim that they liked it back then, but when you hit the forums and demand change that ultimately changes the entire structure of that game, let's be honest, you didn't really like the game, they instead wanted to change the game in to what they wanted it to be, instead of what it actually was, which was what caused people to demand it be changed in the first place.

I for one (probably among the last of my kind still playing this game, since these days most players seem to be in favor of chaos over order) actually loved the Holy Trinity game play of this game, I loved it straight out of the box, it was right up my alley. It was not easy, it required team work, it required everyone know their class, it required...wait for it...Healers! I loved the structure and the cooperation this game once had. It was far less chaotic, you didn't have Blasters running off on their own soloing half the map, if they did, they would completely face plant and get yelled at by other team members. Blaster did not rush ahead of the Tank and aggro mobs without serious consequences. You didn't have Controllers locking down mobs before they could even move, that always ended up in dead Controllers, instead Controllers of those days timed their Immobilize, they waited for mobs to stack on the Tank and then they Immobilized the mobs. You had players who actually aimed their Knock Back to put mobs closer to the Tank or even knocked them back in to the Corner the Tank had them gathered in, which was helpful to the Tank, unlike today, instead we see mobs scatter all over the map.

 

In those days, their was a certain order that the Holy Trinity forced players to abide by. That was what the game was...

 

...until the demands started to flood the forums by players who wanted the game to be easier and didn't care that their demands would screw that up for everyone else...and ultimately, the Devs caved as they typically did to the whiny crowds of those times, despite the heavy resistance players gave against those changes. Sadly, those players who gave heavy resistance to those changes have all but completely mass exodus this game...it feels like I am the only one left...I guess that makes me a relic.

Today, when anyone says anything in favor of those days or maybe has an idea that might bring some of that back, it is often met with somebody who has something snooty to respond with, or that troll tool (Why it still exists is beyond me, it is a damn troll tool and nothing more) thumbs down without a response as to why. You sometimes see in response something like, "The game has evolved, nobody likes the Holy Trinity," sometimes followed by something demeaning. When I see these types of responses, I can't help but to think to myself, 'You mean nobody likes the Holy Trinity who is left playing the game after the ones who did like the Holy Trinity split once the complainers go their way...'

Yes, I know, that is a pretty shitty way to think of it, but the way people who demanded changes to this game left a bad taste in my mouth that I don't think you can ever truly get over...I will forever be a bit bitter of that, not in a grudgingly way, but just...a bit bitter. You see, when the players who loved order had to face the fact that the OG Devs caved in to the players who wanted everything on easy mode, those players left the game, leaving the game to the players who demanded those changes. Much like how you don't want the game changed now, we didn't want the game changed back then.

 

A small example as to how that has negatively impacted this game for players like myself, is the Hollows. All one needs as proof to this is the very thing I fought extremely hard against, turning Hollows in to a playground instead of leaving it as an actual Hazard Zone, there is absolutely nothing "hazard" about that zone anymore, I often wonder why the OG Devs allowed it to be continued to be called a hazard zone after what they did to it, it was salt being rubbed in the wound, it was a pure insult, it was just another example of how players wanted everything on easy mode to the point that the OG Devs actually turned Hollows in to a kiddie play ground instead of a dangerous zone not meant for players who wanted things easy.

Now, before you all go hammering on me over this, understand that I am not trying to change the game back...I'm too damn old for that fight and don't have it in me, now, I am just a bitter old man who is trying to get some of you who would hammer me over this to understand where some of us are coming from and how those players who complained in those days has stolen something that we cherished from players who are like myself, players who preferred order, who despised chaos, who preferred the Holy Trinity...those players of those days (some of whom may or may not still be playing) stole that from us. I ask that you please realize before you go ripping in to somebody like-minded to myself, the game was once a Holy Trinity game first. That was taken from us. So have a bit of sympathy before you (if you are the type, otherwise this doesn't apply to you) go hammering down at somebody who says something or brings up an idea that might make you feel that his/her statement or idea goes against the grain of what you want this game to be. Remember, this game was once the game that they wanted, the Holy Trinity game that you hate so much, until one day it was complained away much like a great deal of things in this game is complained away. So I ask instead of unleashing your holy hell and thumbs down at the individual, be a bit understanding, and simply disagree without hammering on those players.

 

P.S. If you can't understand and you instead decide to thumb down my post, let me just say; you know what you can go do with that thumb...lol.

 

Thanks for lending your ear.

 

Disclaimer: This post was not intended to offend, it was simply intended to show another point of view on how we feel about the subject. I guess saying "No offense..." isn't worth much, but...No offense. 

 

 

 

haha, i knew this would be downvoted. i completely agree mate. to manage expectations, people are highly offended at the thought of having to play CoH

 

let me summarise the three types of responses you’ll be receiving:

1. muh playstyle

2.  having to work to achieve in-game items is unbearable, everything should be instantly available

3. every game should be a sandbox pickup and play FPS because that’s the style i enjoy

 

can’t believe you expect MMO mechanics in an MMO, so unreasonable man

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

haha, i knew this would be downvoted. i completely agree mate. to manage expectations, people are highly offended at the thought of having to play CoH

 

let me summarise the three types of responses you’ll be receiving:

1. muh playstyle

2.  having to work to achieve in-game items is unbearable, everything should be instantly available

3. every game should be a sandbox pickup and play FPS because that’s the style i enjoy

 

can’t believe you expect MMO mechanics in an MMO, so unreasonable man

 

I'm used to it. If they gave a reward for the most thumbs down, I am sure I would be a top 10 contender, lol.

[MoonSheep]

on a more constructive note - the game has lost its appeal. everything has been watered down to homeopathic levels of challenge and doesn’t hold my interest much anymore

 

i log on and play because of the nostalgia, but a game without challenge and gradual progression isn’t interesting to me. if i wanted auto win and solo play i’d buy the sims

 

[Solarverse]

4 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

on a more constructive note - the game has lost its appeal. everything has been watered down to homeopathic levels of challenge and doesn’t hold my interest much anymore

 

i log on and play because of the nostalgia, but a game without challenge and gradual progression isn’t interesting to me. if i wanted auto win and solo play i’d buy the sims

 

 

I found a way to keep my interest by cranking up mobs to what I think my team can handle, but with caution. You can kind of do that when you create your own PUG groups. No Speedies at +0 here, somebody joins my teams, we will run it at +2, +3 or even +4. I won't crank it up to impossible (each team can handle different levels of difficulty) but I'll be damned if my wife tries to hit something with a blaster and the mobs are already dead before she can even hit one...it's mission cranking time, heh.

[MoonSheep]

7 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

I found a way to keep my interest by cranking up mobs to what I think my team can handle, but with caution. You can kind of do that when you create your own PUG groups. No Speedies at +0 here, somebody joins my teams, we will run it at +2, +3 or even +4. I won't crank it up to impossible (each team can handle different levels of difficulty) but I'll be damned if my wife tries to hit something with a blaster and the mobs are already dead before she can even hit one...it's mission cranking time, heh.

 

i do find running TFs on enemies buffed incurs a classic CoH feel as people are forced to play together to succeed

 

when i saw this thread i was a bit annoyed as i’ve been meaning to make a post for weeks on why i think the game has decayed into its current state

 

IOs have ruined CoH and were a mistake.

 

they introduced a materially significant increase in character strength without the game responding by increasing enemy strength or difficulty

 

IOs have allowed people to reject teamplay and solo everything in the game - this has led to the demise of support and control ATs which aren’t needed or valued

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

i do find running TFs on enemies buffed incurs a classic CoH feel as people are forced to play together to succeed

 

when i saw this thread i was a bit annoyed as i’ve been meaning to make a post for weeks on why i think the game has decayed into its current state

 

IOs have ruined CoH and were a mistake.

 

they introduced a materially significant increase in character strength without the game responding by increasing enemy strength or difficulty

 

IOs have allowed people to reject teamplay and solo everything in the game - this has led to the demise of support and control ATs which aren’t needed or valued

 

I agree, IO's where the final nail in the coffin that ended strategic gameplay. And that was my point with this thread, I miss the days when players used to play strategically. Today, it's a lot of time every man/woman/child for themselves, full speed ahead and be damned the torpedoes.  Anyway, it was a long haul tonight, gonna get some game time in before bed. Take care and thanks for the support.

[FFFF]

4 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

IOs have ruined CoH and were a mistake.

 

they introduced a materially significant increase in character strength without the game responding by increasing enemy strength or difficulty

 

IOs have allowed people to reject teamplay and solo everything in the game - this has led to the demise of support and control ATs which aren’t needed or valued

 

IOs were a response to enhancement diversification, arguably the most drastic nerf implemented in the game (though the lesser known global defense nerf may actually been worse). In my experience, IO-based characters still had to rely on support characters from when they were introduced (issue 8?) all the way to issue 19 when the Incarnate system was introduced. At least that was my experience during the live servers era.

 

Would you say that pre-Incarnate teams in the game today still don't require support characters? I suspect it's the Incarnate system that ultimately tips the scale. Though there's a lot of things that make the base Homecoming character way stronger than when they were on live. At the top of my head:

 

• SOs available at level 1
• Mezzes not dropping toggles
• Inherent fitness (more power choices, and stamina/health at level 1)
• All the P2W items

While I agree with your premise that there is a material increase in character strength without commensurate increase in game difficulty, I don't think the issue is strictly an issue with Inventions.

[MoonSheep]

9 minutes ago, FFFF said:

 

IOs were a response to enhancement diversification, arguably the most drastic nerf implemented in the game (though the lesser known global defense nerf may actually been worse). In my experience, IO-based characters still had to rely on support characters from when they were introduced (issue 8?) all the way to issue 19 when the Incarnate system was introduced. At least that was my experience during the live servers era.

 

Would you say that pre-Incarnate teams in the game today still don't require support characters? I suspect it's the Incarnate system that ultimately tips the scale. Though there's a lot of things that make the base Homecoming character way stronger than when they were on live. At the top of my head:

 

• SOs available at level 1
• Mezzes not dropping toggles
• Inherent fitness (more power choices, and stamina/health at level 1)
• All the P2W items

While I agree with your premise that there is a material increase in character strength without commensurate increase in game difficulty, I don't think the issue is strictly an issue with Inventions.

 

i find teams under level 25 still have a mostly familiar CoH feel, after that it things disappear quite quickly

 

low level teams are mostly non existent due to DFB, which i find a shame as some of my most memorable experiences are those low level teams where teamplay is the pathway to success 

 

i agree that instant SOs make things a lot easier, as does many of the goodies available from P2W vendors

 

progression is too quick thesedays, combined with an ability to circumvent the designed game mechanics

 

i appreciate people say “well you don’t have to engage in those buffs”, but we’re an MMO community. if we’re on track and i’m driving driving an 80hp fiat 500 and everyone is in a 400hp mustang, it’s not going to be an enjoyable experience

 

to me, the game felt more meaningful when progression was a moderate rate and you’d invest in your alt and its journey

 

[cranebump]

Seems to me the key words here aren’t  “holy trinity,” but “order” and “chaos.” The OP wants a specific, predictable type of play, geared to a certain era. I think you can run teams that way, if you want. I’ve been on a few HC teams with old school tankers running groups who will have everyone hang back, then announce where they’re herding the mobs.
 

If that’s what you want, you can play and recruit that way. You can find others and run in an SG that focuses on “Legacy Play,” to include limits on enhancements, AT types and so on. Meanwhile, others can run the way they want, and never the twain need meet. Everyone’s happy. (Hopefully)
 

The one thing that does resonate here with me is that the speed and ease of play does diminish the need we may have had for teammates in order to succeed in certain tasks. If there’s one thing predictable about the game now, it’s that most TFs will be rapid steamrolls, regardless of who shows up.
 

Even so, the game can still surprise sometimes. Ran Stockwell arc with a group today. Pulled Chernobog and some adds spewing Dark Debuffs. We wiped, had to reload, then pulled. When he and his mobs came to us again, a couple of us targeted the adds first, THEN hit ‘Bog without his support. The whole arc wasn’t a complete cakewalk now that I think on it. And it was fun because it harder than normal. Well, fun for me and my very stupid “I can make Regen work!” Scrapper. Not so sure about everyone else.:-)

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, cranebump said:

Seems to me the key words here aren’t  “holy trinity,” but “order” and “chaos.” The OP wants a specific, predictable type of play, geared to a certain era. I think you can run teams that way, if you want. I’ve been on a few HC teams with old school tankers running groups who will have everyone hang back, then announce where they’re herding the mobs.
 

If that’s what you want, you can play and recruit that way. You can find others and run in an SG that focuses on “Legacy Play,” to include limits on enhancements, AT types and so on. Meanwhile, others can run the way they want, and never the twain need meet. Everyone’s happy. (Hopefully)

 

The one thing that does resonate here with me is that the speed and ease of play does diminish the need we may have had for teammates in order to succeed in certain tasks. If there’s one thing predictable about the game now, it’s that most TFs will be rapid steamrolls, regardless of who shows up.
 

Even so, the game can still surprise sometimes. Ran Stockwell arc with a group today. Pulled Chernobog and some adds spewing Dark Debuffs. We wiped, had to reload, then pulled. When he and his mobs came to us again, a couple of us targeted the adds first, THEN hit ‘Bog without his support. The whole arc wasn’t a complete cakewalk now that I think on it. And it was fun because it harder than normal. Well, fun for me and my very stupid “I can make Regen work!” Scrapper. Not so sure about everyone else.:-)

 

No, that is not what I want. I'm not looking for a Tank to say, "Wait here while I go herd..." most teams in those days didn't need to be told anything at all, they just knew to let the Tank gain the aggro and let the mobs come to him first before they all jumped in. It was common sense back then. The speed in which teams moved was very affective.

The speed does not diminish with this type of gameplay, that is an illusion because everyone plays at +0 these days on average. When you crank up the difficulty to meet your teams max capabilities, suddenly that face rolling technique falls apart. This is where order excels far beyond the "face rolling easy mode mobs."

[Ananke]

7 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

on a more constructive note - the game has lost its appeal. everything has been watered down to homeopathic levels of challenge and doesn’t hold my interest much anymore

 

i log on and play because of the nostalgia, but a game without challenge and gradual progression isn’t interesting to me. if i wanted auto win and solo play i’d buy the sims

 

Have you done any 4* content? Seems like that's content that would be perfect for you.

[cranebump]

58 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

The speed does not diminish with this type of gameplay, that is an illusion because everyone plays at +0 these days on average. When you crank up the difficulty to meet your teams max capabilities, suddenly that face rolling technique falls apart. This is where order excels far beyond the "face rolling easy mode mobs."

Planning helps at those power levels, to be sure. I DO think speed hampers that a bit, in terms of no one wanting to stop to DO the actual planning (bc they usually don't have to). So I guess I should distinguish between speedy play that is efficient, and speedy play that is just barging in without any sense of teamwork?

[Without_Pause]

10 hours ago, Solarverse said:

In this game, the Holy Trinity is just a phrase used to describe a well balanced team who plays by a set of rules to keep the team running smoothly so that the team can get through difficult content. What this means, is Tank gathers mobs, Controllers lock those mobs down once they are stacked on Tank, Debuffers do their Debuffing and then DPS launch their assault and healers healed, be it Kin, Dark or Emp Defenders.

So, not a trinity at all holy or not. As someone who ODed on Kin on Live, I prefer not having Kin or Dark reduced to being 'healers.'

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Ananke said:

Have you done any 4* content? Seems like that's content that would be perfect for you.

Perfect for me as well, it forces order whether people want to or not. To play with chaos ends in chaos.

[Solarverse]

25 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

So, not a trinity at all holy or not. As someone who ODed on Kin on Live, I prefer not having Kin or Dark reduced to being 'healers.'

 

Hahaha, funny funny, lol.

However, I don't think anyone means "Healers" when they say "healers" but rather a character in which has powers with the capability to Heal. It's more of a Blanketed statement since we all already know that Healers can contribute to a team in so many more ways than just Heal.

[JasperStone]

11 hours ago, Snarky said:

You lost me at well balanced…. I run a Brute!

A Brute ....you seem to be used to  ... underperforming

GOOD NEWS!

I am a Healerz! I am legendary!

I bring da heals and da buffs

RA

RA

Shish BOOOOOOOM

...

crap I am dead ... who has rez or wakie?

[macskull]

11 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Okay, I can see a lot of you aren't understanding what I am saying by Holy Trinity.

That's because in an MMO context when someone says "holy trinity" they're almost certainly talking about tank/dps/heal.

 

Also, for what it's worth, the difficulty system is only marginally effective at making things harder. If an 8-person team is steamrolling at +0 they will probably have an easy go of it even when raising the difficulty to +4. Task force and flashback settings can increase the challenge but if there's no tangible reward for utilizing those challenge settings people aren't going to use them. There's a reason hard mode content dumps extra rewards onto you, and sometimes even those are barely worth it. At the end of the day, this game is - and pretty much always has been - easy, which is also why it's so popular. The game attracts a playerbase that isn't looking for a challenge (which is also one of the reasons PvP never took off in this game). The people who want things to be harder are a vocal minority, but I think giving them what they want isn't a bad thing as long as that increased difficulty is optional. Hard mode settings do a great job of this, but PuG hard mode content isn't all that common because people simply don't want to deal with it.

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

That's because in an MMO context when someone says "holy trinity" they're almost certainly talking about tank/dps/heal.

 

I figured as much, which was why I went on to clarify. I simply was trying to use the term in the same way that I have seen others use it on these forums. I had never even heard the term until these forums, so then there is that, heh.

 

2 hours ago, macskull said:

Also, for what it's worth, the difficulty system is only marginally effective at making things harder. If an 8-person team is steamrolling at +0 they will probably have an easy go of it even when raising the difficulty to +4. Task force and flashback settings can increase the challenge but if there's no tangible reward for utilizing those challenge settings people aren't going to use them. There's a reason hard mode content dumps extra rewards onto you, and sometimes even those are barely worth it. At the end of the day, this game is - and pretty much always has been - easy, which is also why it's so popular. The game attracts a playerbase that isn't looking for a challenge (which is also one of the reasons PvP never took off in this game). The people who want things to be harder are a vocal minority, but I think giving them what they want isn't a bad thing as long as that increased difficulty is optional. Hard mode settings do a great job of this, but PuG hard mode content isn't all that common because people simply don't want to deal with it.

 

You know me, Macskull...I am completely against anything forced in this game, I have been on the receiving end of forced changes quite a few times in this game, I understand full well how that feels, so I do not advocate for anything forced on anyway, not now, not ever. 

As far as raising the difficulty goes, it may still be easy for certain teams, especially teams with Kins, however, If it were me and I were in charge, I would give mobs at higher difficulty much more staying power by upping their hit points by a huge margarine. I would also adjust the xp/influence accordingly. That gives the mobs a bit of extra staying power and gives the illusion (at least) that the mobs are more difficult.  At least mobs won't be dead before you can even hit them with at least...something.

 

We don't have to make them more powerful per-say, but...we can sure make them last a lot longer. At -1 through say, +1, mobs stay the same. At +2 and above, mobs get quadruple the amount of Hit Points and their XP and Influence/Infamy reflect this. Theoretical mind you, if I were in charge.

 

As far as minority, I'm honestly not so sure. When I advertise a Citadel at +2 and get bombarded with Tells, it sure doesn't feel like a minority. Players will often even comment things like, "Finally...a player with balls" (which is a direct quote) and other such comments. I never have an issue filling my teams. So if it is a minority, I don't suspect it is by much. It's honestly hard to say for 100% certain though since we have no way to datamine this.

[Spaghetti Betty]

53 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I would give mobs at higher difficulty much more staying power by upping their hit points by a huge margarine.

You'd butter believe mobs need at least a dozen buffs! They get rolled over way too easily! Teams leave them pancake'd in seconds!