A different thread for Mind Control

[kelika2]

t1 - mesmerize, same thing but more damage

t2 - dominate, same thing but more damage and new slot

t3 - renamed to , slight damage increase + stun

t4 - confuse, animation trimming and chain up to 5 targets.  give it an advantage over illusion

t5 - rename to narcolepsy.  maybe new mechanic of duration debuff that randomly puts things to sleep after initial sleep

t6 - telekinetic slam(because mass levitate is taken).  taoe psi/smash stun

t7 - mass confusion, shorter cooldown, new slot

t8 - terrify, damage increase

t9 - total domination, add moderate damage to it and shorter cooldown.  make it feel like a t9

 

sounds like a lot of control and damage because it is.  lack of pets + terrify not being great/lack of secondary control makes mind control feel like crap.  once you go seeds its hard to go back

[Rudra]

Mind Control has pets though. Every enemy you meet. Confuse may only target a single target, but you can use it every 8 seconds instead of every 60 seconds at base value. And Mass Confusion hits a 25 feet radius area out to 80 feet away instead of just a cone. That makes for a lot of pets.

 

Edit: Also, the T9 isn't Total Domination. It's Mass Confusion. So why does Total Domination need to feel like a T9? (I see you are moving it to T9, but since it is not currently the T9, and I don't understand the desire to move it later to the T9 position, I also don't understand why it should "feel like a T9".) (Edit again: Also, Total Domination has a base recharge of 240 seconds. Every Controller primary T9 also has a base recharge of 240 seconds. So are you shortening the recharge if you want it to feel like a T9?)

Edited September 27, 2023 by Rudra

[Uun]

The issue with Mind is that it only lags for controllers. For the most part it's fine for dominators since they don't need to set up containment. Currently, Mind lacks sufficient means of setting up AoE containment. Most control sets have an AoE immobilize on an 8-second recharge that sets up containment. Many have an AoE stun on a 90-second recharge. All Mind really has is Mass Hypnosis - while on a 30-second recharge, the sleep gets broken the first time you attack and you no longer have containment. Telekinesis also sets up containment, but its AoE is only 10 feet and it has a 5-target max. Rather than adding damage to a bunch of powers, my suggestions would be to 1) add a non-damaging immobilize to Mass Hypnosis that persists if the sleep is broken; and 2) add fear to the status effects that set up containment. 

 

I like your suggested fix/replacement of Telekinesis. I agree that Mass Confusion needs a shorter cooldown but I think it should stay the T9. Total Domination should stay the T7 and the cooldown/damage should stay consistent with the AoE holds in the other control sets.

[arcane]

Mind Control is already in good shape with only two caveats:

 

- Wouldn’t hurt if Fear triggered Containment 

- Telekinesis could use a look

 

I disagree that any of the other powers need buffs.

Edited September 27, 2023 by arcane

[Arcadio]

With procs how they are now MC is the best blasting control set (maybe besides Gravity), I don't think it really needs more damage just better access to containment.

 

I think it would be cool if Telekinesis instead of just doing what it does would unlock a couple different modes of telekinesis since it's such a general concept. Something like TK Lift (how TK is now), TK Crush (group immobilize to set up containment), and TK Flight (how it was in my CoH info booklet that I never got to experience since I didn't play in beta 😡).

 

Also, giving containment to fear would also make Illusion much stronger which I don't think is really necessary.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Arcadio

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I'd like some version of Yin's psionic pet.

tbh i never take mass confuse

the regular confuse is so strong I just confuse bosses, fear the rest and let whatever deity of your choice sort them out.

even without the pet I still prefer mind control over illusion (I know I'm in the minority)

as fantastic as illusion is (and it is great, no lie) it feels like a proto-mastermind.

[arcane]

12 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

tbh i never take mass confuse

What is wrong with some of you people

[Uun]

25 minutes ago, Arcadio said:

Also, giving containment to fear would also make Illusion much stronger which I don't think is really necessary.

I agree that Illusion doesn't need a buff, but I don't think the effect on Illusion would be that significant. Phantom Army and Phantasm don't benefit from containment. Only Blind and Spectral Wounds do and they're both single target (and one is a hold), so adding fear as a containment source wouldn't do much for them. The only powers that would benefit would be the AoE blasts in the epic pools. These are currently worthless on Illusion controllers unless they have a power in their secondary that sets up AoE containment (i.e., Poison Trap, Entangling Aura, Choking Cloud). So adding fear as a containment source would only bring these powers to the same level of effectiveness available to other control primaries.

[Rudra]

Here's a weird thought: What if Mind Control's sleep effects broke into stun effects if the sleep was broken before its duration was up? Then the sleep powers would maintain Containment without changing the core theme of the set, wouldn't it? The only complaint I routinely hear about Mind Control is that Mesmerize and Mass Hypnosis are useless on teams because the sleep effects are immediately broken by everyone. (I don't really have a leg in this discussion since I personally do not enjoy playing Controllers most times. I'm just asking a few questions.)

 

Edit: Actually, let's change this suggestion/question. Instead of applying the stun if the sleep is broken, apply the stun at the same time with the same duration so that if the sleep is broken, Containment isn't broken.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Rudra

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

What is wrong with some of you people

it is a rather long recharge

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

1 hour ago, arcane said:

What is wrong with some of you people

it is a rather long recharge

At 240 seconds of recharge, it has the exact same recharge as every other Controller T9.

[Yomo Kimyata]

23 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I think I agree with this.  Lots of people look at something that has a different playstyle and say, "This sucks, make it more like what I already know and like!"  Case in point:  Mind Controllers.

 

As always, if you don't like something, don't play it!  But as time goes by you may be surprised that what you like may change.

 

Well, my Time Manipulation powers are strong.  Less than 24 hours!

[Greycat]

Mind control's great as is. Any issue with it would be a general controller issue with the old lengthened AOE hold recharge.

 

Definitely don't need or want Confuse turned into an AOE or chain. Absolutely not. The times I use it (frequently,) I *want* just one target (typically a buffer, sometimes a sapper for amusement) confused, not everything around it. If I want everything around it confused, I use ... wait for it... Mass Confusion. And yes, seeds is AOE and earlier. It also causes aggro to pay for it. I don't want either confuse doing that. It would make the set much less useful. (It's also why I don't put the damage procs some confuse setss have into it.)

 

And Mass Confusion is perfectly fine as a T9. It's a Mind signature power. The AOE hold? I tend to want that earlier. (Yes, people *do* take it and use it and know how to use it.) Especially on controllers, since it's setting up everything held by it for Containment (and a boss can be followed up on quickly by the ST hold to stack. ) And with the power availability changes (which, frankly, I still dislike and which annoy me on every character I'm leveling) you get it earlier.

 

 

[Glorificus]

Make Confuse a Mag 4 Confusion.  Also, eliminate any XP penalties associated with confused creatures damaging or killing other enemies.

 

And Reduce Mass Confuse's recharge down to 60 seconds like Seeds of Confusion.  Oh and increase its base accuracy to at least 1.00x.

 

That would solve a lot of issues with Mind Control.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Glorificus

[Rudra]

44 minutes ago, Glorificus said:

Also, eliminate any XP penalties associated with confused creatures damaging or killing other enemies.

I don't think it exists as an xp penalty in the game. I think it is just the loss of xp from having something not part of the the team damaging the targets. Like how the Dream Doctor can take out targets while your ally and you still get full xp and inf' for it, but his summoned phantasms reduce the xp and inf' by the ratio of the damage they do. (Edit again: Or like how if you jump in and attack Eochai and Jack in Irons, defeating them after they've mauled each other near to death, you get pretty much nothing for doing so.)

 

(Edit: Because I'm pretty sure the game isn't set up to make temporary "allies" count as your team members. They just stop counting as your enemies in regards to their ability to attack you, and you still get full xp and inf' for defeating your confused enemies.)

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct "but" to "by".

[arcane]

7 hours ago, Glorificus said:

Make Confuse a Mag 4 Confusion.  Also, eliminate any XP penalties associated with confused creatures damaging or killing other enemies.

 

And Reduce Mass Confuse's recharge down to 60 seconds like Seeds of Confusion.  Oh and increase its base accuracy to at least 1.00x.

 

That would solve a lot of issues with Mind Control.

Yeah no lol

[tidge]

I find Mind Control on Controllers to be pretty powerful. I can understand why some folks could look at it and say "but why no summonable pet?"; I don't think it needs one. It's got some of the most effective controls in the game! In terms of slotting choices, it is exceptionally well-positioned to take multiple kinds of sets (for example: lots of Gloabl reacharge options available) and can make some strong %damage builds.

 

The only issue I have with Mind Control (as a primary) is that the early levels more-or-less require P2W attacks to be able to solo low-level content at a reasonable pace... but this is by design and is easily mitigated (as I wrote, P2W attacks). It's not really a bad design choice IMO, more like a feature.

[Uun]

50 minutes ago, tidge said:

I find Mind Control on Controllers to be pretty powerful. I can understand why some folks could look at it and say "but why no summonable pet?"; I don't think it needs one. It's got some of the most effective controls in the game!

Mind's controls are decidedly less effective than those in many other sets, specifically its reliance on sleep and fear for AoE control due to the 4 minute cooldown on its AoE confuse. Dark, Earth, Fire, Gravity and Symphony have AoE stuns on 90 second cooldowns. Earth, Electric, Fire and Ice have AoE knockdown patches on 90 second (or shorter) cooldowns. AoE sleeps on most sets are typically skipped or used situationally due to the their lack of usefulness in a team environment. I readily admit that Seeds of Confusion is vastly OP and don't want Mass Confusion changed to match it, however, I think a reduction in cooldown to 3 minutes is warranted. I also stand by my comment above that Mind needs lacks sufficient methods of setting up AoE containment.

[kelika2]

Confuse kills should reward full exp.  between all the other ways to get levels fast the old "low risk low reward" mentality does not feel needed anymore.

and we just wont know until someone does a "confuse only challenge" run to get to 50+3

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

Confuse kills should reward full exp.  between all the other ways to get levels fast the old "low risk low reward" mentality does not feel needed anymore.

and we just wont know until someone does a "confuse only challenge" run to get to 50+3

The only way I can think of for Confuse kills to award full anything, is if the game goes back to how it used to work at launch. Where the one that scores the final hit gets full credit (read xp and inf') for the defeated target. And if I recall correctly, that was done away with because it basically penalized teams. So to the best of my knowledge, there is no way to get full credit (read xp and inf') from targets if you have enemies confused and attacking each other unless you or your team are able to do 100% of the damage needed to defeat the targets. It is not an xp penalty thing, it is the scaling damage=reward thing.

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to remove redundant "are".

[tidge]

2 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Confuse kills should reward full exp.  between all the other ways to get levels fast the old "low risk low reward" mentality does not feel needed anymore.

and we just wont know until someone does a "confuse only challenge" run to get to 50+3

 

With %damage in the AoE Confuse, the Controller gets in the drop pool for every hit enemy. The XP is worth far less than the drops, and the "cost" of losing XP from a confused enemy is much less than one might naively think.

[Castiel777]

Mass Confusion-My thoughts on Mind Control are this as a Controller Main; Mass Confusion needs a bit of a lower cooldown than what it has. People compare it to seeds of confusion, but you dont have to risk your life with Mass Confusion like you do with Seeds of confusion. You can do it far away. (Taking away the XP Penalty would be nice but thats been in their for as long as I can remember.)

 

Pet- A pet would make it less lonely playing as a Mind Controller but I understand that they don't necessarily need it so I wont say much on this. (Would I love? God yeah xD)

 

Mass Hypnosis- Unpopular opinion but this power is my bread and butter, one of my favorite powers in this powerset. It really helps for;

1) Keep my team from being attacked if we aggro cause they are already asleep.

 

2) If I use the power on a mob first that we are getting ready to attack, it allows for my team to get all their initial hits in first and some enemies are slightly outside of the radius of some AOES so they stay asleep, we dont have to worry about stragglers. LOL

 

3) The Pro to this power being a sleep power vs immbolize is that the enemies on the outside of AOE attacks which happens more than people think are completely "held" vs still being able to attack your team. 

 

Suggestion for Mass Hypnosis - I would love to see that when the sleep effect is broken they suffer a short stun/disorient effect OR

Slow down to movement speed/Slow Power recharge since they just gotten woken up from a slumber.

 

Telekinesis - I would honestly love to see some other variations to this power. If this power got some more love truly, I would no pun intended but love that.

Telekinesis to me is situational and its super END heavy. Its not the most convenient power to use and I would love to see more use for this power. Just an idea but maybe like a Telekinetic Slam where it slams enemies into the ground (Targeted AOE) dealing Moderate Damage and acts as a Disorient. 

 

I am open to suggestions to this power but it needs love for sure to be useful in my humble opinion. Maybe give people an option on how they want to use it by giving them a few options? That could be nice. 

 

Anywho I think this concludes my thoughts. Mind Control is in a pretty good position, just needs a few small tweaks but nothing crazy. Its certainly my favorite Controller Power as a controller main and it was my first character ever on the Live Servers! ❤️

 

Thank you for all you do! <3

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, Castiel777 said:

(Taking away the XP Penalty would be nice but thats been in their for as long as I can remember.)

That is not an XP penalty. If your target is damaged by something/someone not on the team, the XP for that amount of damage is awarded to the something or someone inflicting that damage. If it was another player, they would get that little bit of XP. Since it is a mob and they don't track XP, you simply don't get it. (Edit: Just like when a random group of players all jump a giant monster and are awarded the XP and Inf' for however much damage they did to the giant monster, mobs getting mauled by other mobs are still dividing up the XP value of the target based on their relative damage inflicted. This was implemented so players could get the XP for mobs even if someone else kills it, unlike when the game first launched and full credit went to whomever defeated the target, even if they only did the very last HP it had in damage, leaving the player that actually fought the target from start to finish with nothing to show for it.)

Edited November 28, 2023 by Rudra

[biostem]

I think the problem with mind control is that it tries to combine telepathy with telekinesis.  I think the 2 should be separated, with levitate and telekinesis going into their own set, and being replaced with something appropriate, like maybe some sort of "psychic wounds" or "hypnotic suggestion", "erase presence", or even a version of link minds.  Besides that, I don't so much mind the confusion powers, (though I think confuse should be a toggle that while maintained, turns the target into a temporary ally).

Edited November 28, 2023 by biostem

[PoptartsNinja]

My personal wish-list for Mind Control would be to make its version of confuse semi-unique in some way. Let it stack with normal confuse magnitude from other sources, but let it overpower them as long as it's active. It shouldn't be more effective than the current confuse (Mind doesn't need higher magnitudes), but should grant full XP for the damage dealt by the minions because confuse is mind control's thing.

 

If you want to take it a step further, you could call it "Enrage" or "Berserk" and have it give the target mob an unmodifiable, unresistable accuracy and damage buff for the same duration as the confuse, to add a little element of risk if the confuse breaks due to insufficient magnitude (because suddenly now you've got a buffed and angry enemy). Or just keep calling it confuse and make the difference more subtle.

 

Edit: Then give the single target version to CoT Succubi.

Edited November 28, 2023 by PoptartsNinja