The Philotic Knight's Buff Force Fields 1.0!

[Galaxy Brain]

I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I'd be wary, Cottage Rule and all... I'd have to think about it.

 

Eh, it's like a timeshare and not so much a new cottage. The role of the power (cast on an ally to make them avoid damage) is still present, but with an extra layer that would give a reason to re apply the FF if the absorb runs out while the deflection remains.

 

Given that FF lacks offensive utility of other support sets, I think it would be thematically appropriate to lean more into it being heavily defensive.

[Solvernia]

Cottage Rule

 

New cottage, different rules. I see no problem with replacing or changing bad powers.

[Galaxy Brain]

Cottage Rule

 

New cottage, different rules. I see no problem with replacing or changing bad powers.

 

Also this. It's a good guideline, but honestly it's been *years* and there is a much different audience / no need to model the game to a subscriber base or publisher guidelines.

[Vanden]

Cottage Rule

 

New cottage, different rules. I see no problem with replacing or changing bad powers.

 

Also this. It's a good guideline, but honestly it's been *years* and there is a much different audience / no need to model the game to a subscriber base or publisher guidelines.

 

None of which are why the Cottage Rule exists.

[_NOPE_]

Cottage Rule

 

New cottage, different rules. I see no problem with replacing or changing bad powers.

 

Also this. It's a good guideline, but honestly it's been *years* and there is a much different audience / no need to model the game to a subscriber base or publisher guidelines.

 

None of which are why the Cottage Rule exists.

 

Exactly. It exists so you don't piss off players that are used to things being within a certain range of "change". Change can happen, sure. But it has to be gradual, or you piss people off. If you completely took away Force Bubble, for example, and replaced it with Implosion, I'd be LIVID. Because you just fundamentally changed a power that I've used countless times in all sorts of situations.

 

Now, giving people a CHOICE between the "old" power and a new power, and choosing one locks out the other until a respec... I might dig something like that... and that tech exists already in code (see the way Veteran powers work). So that opens up some possibilities...

[Galaxy Brain]

Cottage Rule

 

New cottage, different rules. I see no problem with replacing or changing bad powers.

 

Also this. It's a good guideline, but honestly it's been *years* and there is a much different audience / no need to model the game to a subscriber base or publisher guidelines.

 

None of which are why the Cottage Rule exists.

 

Yeah that was a tangent, but tbh it has a small factor to play. Cool new sets would get the good stuff to attract players moreso than older sets.

 

Cottage Rule is good in that it keeps designs in check, but at the same time it also keeps certain powers in an odd spot. I think it's fine to bend the cottage rule as long as the power being cottaged still fits the same theme / niche as before but in a different way. Or, if the power was just sort of atrocious.

 

As PK mentions, adding in choices for like powers would be sick. Like Explosion vs Implosion, and so on.

[PaxArcana]

Nonetheless, "the Cottage Rule" should only ever be a word of caution, not a /JRanger.

[sturmcrow]

I have to disagree with a lot of the conclusions by OP

 

First Force Bolt is a joke and should be replaced. Minimal damage and knockback is a bad power and no group wants it happening.

 

Second the last three powers all do roughly the same thing, knockback and knockback is B A D. Compare Force Bubble to the final power in similar categories and it really becomes how apparent how bad it is. In other Defender Primary/Controller Secondary pools the final power is a complete battle altering power, usually debuffing multiple enemies and buffing the team at the same time. Force bubble repels bad guys, not equivalent at all and worse when you look at Repulsion Field/Bomb the absurdity and poor design really become apparent.

 

Looking at similar sets, it becomes easily apparent what fixes Forcefield needs. It needs absorb added, preferably an absorb that increases in strength as you level up either as a replacement or included in one of its powers. Force Bolt needs to be replaced with a group offensive buff (or the AoE absorb shield). Knockback is not CC no matter what the original Devs thought of it. Keep Repulsion Field with maybe some modifications and change Force Bubble entirely (you know what we would be cool and AoE intangible bubble that allows your team to move in an out of it freely).  I know some people might not like it being similar to Dimension shift but maybe include a buff to allies in the AoE because how fitting would it be for Forcefields to create an bubble that locks down enemies inside, I think very fitting.

 

I also think Detention Field is pointless, most groups dont care about a single enemy and burn through groups to fast but I can see how while leveling it might have its uses.  I would prefer it replaced with something that helps the group or an ally like most of the other powers in this category.

 

Right now you could make a Forcefield character and just stack some group buff toggles and go on follow which is boring. Adding or changing abilities so the player has to be more interactive, such as refreshing absorbs or debuffing enemies/buffing allies mid-fight.

[_NOPE_]

[justicebeliever]

I have to disagree with a lot of the conclusions by OP

 

First Force Bolt is a joke and should be replaced. Minimal damage and knockback is a bad power and no group wants it happening.

 

Second the last three powers all do roughly the same thing, knockback and knockback is B A D. Compare Force Bubble to the final power in similar categories and it really becomes how apparent how bad it is. In other Defender Primary/Controller Secondary pools the final power is a complete battle altering power, usually debuffing multiple enemies and buffing the team at the same time. Force bubble repels bad guys, not equivalent at all and worse when you look at Repulsion Field/Bomb the absurdity and poor design really become apparent.

 

Looking at similar sets, it becomes easily apparent what fixes Forcefield needs. It needs absorb added, preferably an absorb that increases in strength as you level up either as a replacement or included in one of its powers. Force Bolt needs to be replaced with a group offensive buff (or the AoE absorb shield). Knockback is not CC no matter what the original Devs thought of it. Keep Repulsion Field with maybe some modifications and change Force Bubble entirely (you know what we would be cool and AoE intangible bubble that allows your team to move in an out of it freely).  I know some people might not like it being similar to Dimension shift but maybe include a buff to allies in the AoE because how fitting would it be for Forcefields to create an bubble that locks down enemies inside, I think very fitting.

 

I also think Detention Field is pointless, most groups dont care about a single enemy and burn through groups to fast but I can see how while leveling it might have its uses.  I would prefer it replaced with something that helps the group or an ally like most of the other powers in this category.

 

Right now you could make a Forcefield character and just stack some group buff toggles and go on follow which is boring. Adding or changing abilities so the player has to be more interactive, such as refreshing absorbs or debuffing enemies/buffing allies mid-fight.

 

One of the cardinal rules of CoX is that all powersets can solo...how well, different question.  Detention Field and KB are key to soloing with this set - being able to hold back a boss or his minion while you finish the other one off?  Critical... 

Knockback buying you 10 extra seconds to finish one guy while dealing with another attacker?  Critical...

 

Doing the content in a duo or trio - they are still exceptional powers...Allowing the team to prioritize targets (especially if you lack a tank/brute), and protecting the squishier among your friends...

 

And for the record, I love KB, and I have several characters with it, and never once had a team complaint...It's awesome when used to push enemies into a corner, or when paired with hover, or when the tanker or another team mate is about to bite it...

 

[sturmcrow]

 

 

One of the cardinal rules of CoX is that all powersets can solo...how well, different question.  Detention Field and KB are key to soloing with this set - being able to hold back a boss or his minion while you finish the other one off?  Critical... 

Knockback buying you 10 extra seconds to finish one guy while dealing with another attacker?  Critical...

 

Doing the content in a duo or trio - they are still exceptional powers...Allowing the team to prioritize targets (especially if you lack a tank/brute), and protecting the squishier among your friends...

 

And for the record, I love KB, and I have several characters with it, and never once had a team complaint...It's awesome when used to push enemies into a corner, or when paired with hover, or when the tanker or another team mate is about to bite it...

 

So empathy can solo? Kinetics? Not all sets were created to solo. I played when this game came out. Force bolt is not useful for soloing. People with this set have to rely on their other power set to carry them solo through fights. Most of the power pools in this category have little to no attack powers and instead have support powers based on buffing and debuffing sometimes with a little damage included. FF is really the odd man out, the only one with a power comparable is Storm Summoning and that is a cone of knockback.

 

People complained none stop in Live and when I played my FF/Energy Defender recently on Indom I got lots of complaints even though I was hovering above cause guess what enemies move and they get knockbacked based on that position.

 

Knockback was heavily weighted when the game was created and the powers using it were never balanced against others that CC and Damage. Looking at stuff that was developed later in CoH's life makes it apparent that they started to come around about knockback.

[_NOPE_]

 

<3 Repulsion Field

[sturmcrow]

 

<3 Repulsion Field

 

Pretty sure I said keep Repulsion Field and maybe improve it a little. Force Bubble is the one I think needs to be massively fixed as well as Force Bolt.

 

To the other poster I also said that I can see why some people like Detention Field, I just find it lackluster.

[justicebeliever]

So empathy can solo? Kinetics? Not all sets were created to solo. I played when this game came out. Force bolt is not useful for soloing. People with this set have to rely on their other power set to carry them solo through fights. Most of the power pools in this category have little to no attack powers and instead have support powers based on buffing and debuffing sometimes with a little damage included. FF is really the odd man out, the only one with a power comparable is Storm Summoning and that is a cone of knockback.

 

People complained none stop in Live and when I played my FF/Energy Defender recently on Indom I got lots of complaints even though I was hovering above cause guess what enemies move and they get knockbacked based on that position.

 

Knockback was heavily weighted when the game was created and the powers using it were never balanced against others that CC and Damage. Looking at stuff that was developed later in CoH's life makes it apparent that they started to come around about knockback.

 

Let's be fair, if your goal is to solo only using a support set, and not take secondaries (or primaries for Controller/MM), then good luck.  But if I had to, I will say that FF would be near the top of my list, because it's the one set that gives you the damage power with the fastest recharge, and you can start using it at lvl 2, and a second power, Repulsion that does damage as well.

 

Cold doesn't do any damage until lvl 26 (long recharge); Dark, lvl 6 (Very long recharge); Storm Summoning has 2 but both still have longer recharge and less control over the direction of the KB; Thermal has Phoenix, pretty specialized, and Knockback; Traps actually has DMG left and right on it's powers; and Trick Arrow has damage at lvl 12, slow recharge; NONE of the rest of the support sets off ANY damage, just buffs/debuffs...

 

So gauging FF's niche, I would say that it excels in it's niche of damage dealing and knockback.  I think PK's suggestions only enhance this by adding more damage to Force Bolt, and redoing how Detention works into more of a classic "hold".

[_NOPE_]

because it's the one set that gives you the damage power with the fastest recharge, and you can start using it at lvl 2

Are you talking about Force Bolt here? Because that power does NOT really count as a damage dealing power. I'm pretty sure it does less damage than the Origin Temp Powers.... which suck.

 

[justicebeliever]

because it's the one set that gives you the damage power with the fastest recharge, and you can start using it at lvl 2

Are you talking about Force Bolt here? Because that power does NOT really count as a damage dealing power. I'm pretty sure it does less damage than the Origin Temp Powers.... which suck.

 

I am...It's minor smashing which is about as good damage as most (not all) tier 1 attack powers.  I'm just saying that it does any damage at all, and given it's recharge time (Fast), it's in the top 2 of DPS of any support set (strictly speaking from a damage produced POV, not damage enabled). 

[PaxArcana]

So empathy can solo? Kinetics? Not all sets were created to solo.

Yes, Empathy can solo.  So can Kinetics.  So can every Powerset.  Just not as quickly or easily as all the other Powersets out there.

 

I played when this game came out. Force bolt is not useful for soloing.

My Robo/FF Mastermind says "yes, yes it bloody well is."  Especially in the lower levels, when I didn't have enough pets to burn down a mob spawn very quickly; being able to keep one guy bouncing off a nearby wall, spending all his time standing up from the floor, while the robot(s) worked on the other two, was absolutely priceless.

[Bossk_Hogg]

 

<3 Repulsion Field

 

Watching you take almost 4 minutes to slooowly solo an elite boss isn't exactly disproving his point.

 

If the set had meaningful boosts (and electric blast) you would have finished that fight in less time, and safer. A /ff controller would have done that faster, and contribute more damage and safety to the team. Sure, their numbers are a smidge lower on the shields, but since IO's are even more available on Homecoming, it's time to stop pretending like they arent a factor contributing to FF's increasing irrelevance.

 

FF needs some love. Elec blast needs some love, at minimum giving Tesla Cage the Sentinel treatment. Defenders as a whole could use a bit of love. Outside of sonic, the secondary doesnt really quite measure up to the damage boost of imps/pets. I used to love defenders, had a 50 of each shade. Now I just cant bring myself to bother unless I'm using sonic as a secondary.

[sturmcrow]

because it's the one set that gives you the damage power with the fastest recharge, and you can start using it at lvl 2

Are you talking about Force Bolt here? Because that power does NOT really count as a damage dealing power. I'm pretty sure it does less damage than the Origin Temp Powers.... which suck.

 

I am...It's minor smashing which is about as good damage as most (not all) tier 1 attack powers.  I'm just saying that it does any damage at all, and given it's recharge time (Fast), it's in the top 2 of DPS of any support set (strictly speaking from a damage produced POV, not damage enabled).

 

No, no isn't. You are arguing against improving a power that does 1/5th the damage of Controller tier 1 attacks, about 1/12th the damage of the blaster tier 1, less than 1/6th what the Defender does with its Secondary tier 1, etc. So no, it is nowhere close to any of the tier 1 power pools attack. And you say that it is the top 2 dps of any support set, support sets don't do damage! There are two attacks Gale (a cone knockback) and Force Bolt, so doing 3 points more damage then a cone isnt really good because a cone can hit many targets.

 

 

[PaxArcana]

Yeah, um, my /FF Masterminds have never used Force Bolt for the damage.  It's only about the knockback; it's a CONTROL, not an attack.

[Redlynne]

Control that just happens to also do damage ... or an attack that also happens to do control.

 

The former is a better framing for how to think about Force Bolt than the latter.

[PaxArcana]

.... for my MMs, Force Bolt does 1 damage.  Occasionally, perhaps it does 2.

 

That is, for all practical intents and purposes, so close to 0 as to be functionally indistinguishable.  The wee little Origin-specific attack powers do tremendously more than ForceBolt - both per-attack, and measured as DPS.

[Redlynne]

If you want Force Bolt to do DAMAGE you slot it with Damage Procs ... not with Damage Enhancement ... because twice nothing is still nothing.

[Galaxy Brain]

If you want Force Bolt to do DAMAGE you slot it with Damage Procs ... not with Damage Enhancement ... because twice nothing is still nothing.

 

But the game isnt balanced for IOs :p

[Trickshooter]

I'm not sure why we're debating how useful Force Bolt's damage is, when even Phil has acknowledged it should do scale 1 damage and have a chance to disorient in the OP.