Aggressively reduce price of basic enhancements

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, Lockely said:

 

Mainly because the test is to see how a new player is going to experience the game. The AH if you don't understand the converter economy is basically a giant brick wall anyway. You open it, look at the enhancements you want, and if you aren't stumped by the interface, you take one look at the prices and click the close button.

The game teaches you it exists, it doesn't teach you about converting reward merits into anything, especially converters, for a quick buck. The players won't know or understand the 1inf listing trick to get starter money to list things higher. They won't know you can farm exploration badge accolades in Atlas to immediately make ~1mil give or take 100k. They won't know or figure out any of this unless they come to the forums and ask, or a kind soul sits them down to explain it.

The whole point is to show how bad it is for new players to try and level up off drops and active mission income alone.

If they pay attention to popups the game will teach them about merits and more.

[Lockely]

15 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

If they pay attention to popups the game will teach them about merits and more.

 

I wouldn't call this teaching much more than making aware the little popup they got means something. If you go over to the merit vendor, there is zero explanation as to what any of it does, and the only thing that is directly understandable are the supremely expensive ATOs.

 

"Oh, this is where I save these up for my class sets." It also shows them a 'cheap' form of SOs, which is actually far more expensive than they have any right to be and probably shouldn't be on the merit vendor as they seem like a trap. Same with Standard Invention Recipes. ~1m worth of Reward Merits for a level 50 default IO.

The Merit Vendor, without an explanation of the converter economy and the worth of the items, is one giant noob trap.

[UltraAlt]

7 hours ago, Lockely said:

As pointed out by @Pleonast earlier, this ignores the entirety of today's MMO landscape. There's a reason why games with much faster dopamine loops are growing and traditional MMOs like this are no longer even being developed.

 

And maybe that this is enjoy by the community that continues to enjoy it.

Maybe it doesn't need to change to try to "keep up" but be an oasis for people that enjoy it the way that it is.

 

7 hours ago, Lockely said:

Not only are attention spans shorter across the board for all of us

 

Not all of us.

That is conjecture on your part.

I agree for younger generations, it does seem to be a heading toward a blipvert reality.

 

 

I'm assuming you know that a great many of us are well over 50.

 

7 hours ago, Lockely said:

but the people this game would attract are a tiny niche compared to the overall market. It's a dated game, with dated gameplay mechanics, and a dozen confusing systems that don't explain anything.

 

So basically,

 

 

When is a game, not a game?

 

When it is a puzzle!

 

Er, no.

A puzzle is a still a game.

 

7 hours ago, Lockely said:

Put yourself in the shoes of a new player.

 

I was a new player.

So, yes, I understand what it is like to play City of Heroes for the first time.

Sure. I was in early enough so that a lot of things were added to the game.

In the starting part of the game, there isn't needs for knowing about the market, building supergroup bases, or incarnate stuff if you play the game.

 

If you decide to bypass everything and jump in the deep end from the get go, then that's on you.

 

I remember playing WoW (or some other fantasy MMO, I think it was WoW) for the first time. There were all these mobs fairly tightly packed, all out in the open, far enough away from each other that they didn't agro each other, and I was like, okay... I'm going to go explore. I took off in one direction and ended up going not that far to find my way down the cliff and directly in the awaiting level 30 enemy mob below.

That doesn't happen in City of Heroes. You're going to have to go to another zone to get in over  your head that deep and you're going to have a chance to look around and see what level the enemies are before you attack or get attacked. Unless you are just steamrolling around not not paying attention to anything.

 

7 hours ago, Lockely said:

Most new players, even back in the day, ended their game there.

 

Not in City of Heroes.

I know I didn't, and I faced that myself.

The game has changed so that is less likely to happen especially if you team up and don't take x2xp buffs.

 

I would also like to know where you get your numbers from to say "most".

 

7 hours ago, Lockely said:

They went, "this game sucks dude." and logged out for the last time.

 

Quote your sources please.

 

7 hours ago, Lockely said:

On my level 27, which I have just been throwing into MSRs to level, I have 13 total enhancements slotted outside of the 5 free ones you get from S.T.A.R.T.

It costs me 404,927 to upgrade a mix of 13 DOs and SOs to level 30. I have 22 slots sitting open without anything because it's a money sink to upgrade those and I'm just going to start dumping IOs in soon, but that's because I *know better* from having maxed out a character.

 

I can see you are having a difficult time playing the game.

I'm pretty sure that the upgrade system costs more than buying new ones.

 

btw. I don't slot IOs (not IO sets, just IOs) until the character can lot 45s.

 

One easy trick is to run DFBs. The DFB drops SO's that match your level regardless of what level you run it at.

 

7 hours ago, Lockely said:

New players will not. New players will hit this brick wall head first and nine times out of ten, they'll just quit to go play something more rewarding.

 

And that's fine.

No one is forcing them to play a game that they don't enjoy playing.

They probably never put any money into supporting the game.

If they don't think a game that is really free and not P2P or P2W is worth taking time to figure out then that's on them.

 

What I do know is there is a good sized community that loves City of Heroes that are willing to support it the way that it is.

It doesn't need to change to "keep up" with newer games.

 

7 hours ago, Lockely said:

Nostalgia alone will not drive further interest in this game and these servers.

 

The game doesn't need to keep getting new players.

It is good if it does, but that is not a requirement.

New players don't bring any additional revenue. Homecoming is on a fixed budget.

 

7 hours ago, Lockely said:

As grim as it sounds, those of us who played this game as kids are getting old.

 

Wow. 

Really?

Don't you know that many of us that played City of Heroes when it first came out were adults back then?

It wasn't on a home video game system.

You had to own a decent computer, pay for a monthly subscription in order to play, and - maybe most importantly - be able to pay for a decent enough internet connection order to be able to play. Home computers still weren't all over the place back then and neither were internet connections.

 

7 hours ago, Lockely said:

There is no reason to withhold QoL changes just because it's always been difficult. Things that worked 20 years ago don't work now (and arguably didn't work then, else NCSoft wouldn't have transitioned the game to a freemium model and then shut it down), and we need to stop living in a vat of 'back in my day' and realize the game's industry has changed and so has its audience.

 

All games were changing to freemium models back then in order to milk players for money through microtransactions - which all new games have and CoH through Homecoming no longer does.

We don't need to change. The game doesn't need to change.

 

The complexity is there to make the game worth exploring if the player wants to take the time to explore it.

They can explore it through all the different game mechanics, and they can explore it through a wide variety of archetypes and power sets (and the variations upon those).

No. The game isn't for anyone. No game is.

But the people that love the game are going to keep playing it .. and, yeah, most likely until they can't play it any more for one reason or another including death.

That's reality, but, if you change the game so that it is no long City of Heroes, then what is the point?

 

7 hours ago, Lockely said:

We either adapt or fade away into irrelevance.

 

Good for you.

And people still play chess and the game hasn't changed for how long?

 

Edited March 6 by UltraAlt

[Pleonast]

4 hours ago, biostem said:

Frankly, buying DOs/SOs is a trap - it's a temporary buff at best, and a huge waste of inf at worst. 

Ah, but if DO/SOs cost one-tenth their current prices? 

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, Pleonast said:

Ah, but if DO/SOs cost one-tenth their current prices? 

 

Still a trap and a waste, just a bit less so.

 

I think DOs and SOs should be removed from the game entirely and replaced with a new version of TOs with a value somewhere BETWEEN what DOs and SOs currently give. THAT new version of TOs could be priced down low to make it accessible.

[biostem]

34 minutes ago, Pleonast said:

Ah, but if DO/SOs cost one-tenth their current prices? 

Maybe... maybe if they retained some benefit, even when they turned red, they'd be worthwhile at their regular cost.  Lowering their price just makes them even more disposable, which, IMHO, isn't a good behavior to foster.  As I've stated before, though, I think the notion that one ought to or should be fully slotted at all levels is also a misconception that should be abandoned.

[golstat2003]

9 hours ago, Wavicle said:

If they pay attention to popups the game will teach them about merits and more.

 

I for the life of me can't even remember when you get this, I can't imagine it would be easy not to miss for a new player. There is also the issue that if you level fast in PUGs you can actually outlevel the prompts for various tutorials. 

[Lockely]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

 

I for the life of me can't even remember when you get this, I can't imagine it would be easy not to miss for a new player. There is also the issue that if you level fast in PUGs you can actually outlevel the prompts for various tutorials. 

 

It's a small popup when you get your first ever Reward Merit. I linked the text of the popup in an earlier reply.

[Sunsette]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

 

I for the life of me can't even remember when you get this, I can't imagine it would be easy not to miss for a new player. There is also the issue that if you level fast in PUGs you can actually outlevel the prompts for various tutorials. 

 

It triggers automatically on receiving your first Merit Reward.

 

But it strikes me very much as one of those things that's necessary but not sufficient; lessons learned without context are quickly forgotten, and as Lockely explained very well, there are many questions about how Merit Rewards work.

[nzer]

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

We don't need to change. The game doesn't need to change.

 

This is such a ridiculous reason to oppose potential improvements. The game is not perfect, not even at what it's trying to be. And Homecoming is already different from live in a lot of fairly major ways, so this ship has sailed. If you're looking at Homecoming and having this thought, you're failing to recognize what "the game" even is.

[lemming]

I was thinking about this a little.   Ok, for TO, DO, SO.

 

Right now, an enhancement costs 3.8 times what they sell for.   So, if we dropped the cost to be just a little more than what they vendor for, it would have zero effect on veterans, but would help newbies.   Honestly, I'd be curious if 1.1 times would work.  (Just to keep a little going to the RNG slush fund)

[Super Atom]

The repeated argument of "People shouldn't be fully slotted at all times!" Is a direct contradiction to this games balancing point.

 

It should be repeated again, since people can't seem to grasp the point.

 

Most of the issue starts at 20. "Starts" which mean its goes into the 30s. and so on.

 

If you don't think a level 30 should be fully slotted at all times and going forward, i think you are out of touch with the basics of City of Heroes and its relaxed game design.

Just because you can ignore the enhancements, doesn't mean the game was designed that way. It is an extremely out of touch opinion that new people to this game should just ignore the most basic feature of it, and given how this is a very team centric game (but i SolOOLolOollo. shut up) An unslotted level 25-35 will be a hindrance to their team and that never feels good.

 

Also, idk why everyone keeps pretending 100% of new player inf is going to enhancers, im willing to bet its costumes and costume edits, the most alluring part of this game, that keeps new players unable to maintain their enhancements. almost feels like the SO cost punishes you for spending any inf on looking cool

Edited March 6 by Super Atom

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

this is a very team centric game (but i SolOOLolOollo. shut up)

Stop telling others to shut up when they do something different from your claim. Edit: Especially since the Live devs intentionally made the game easier to solo by making it possible to make AVs into EBs and EBs into bosses just so soloers could clear those missions solo.

Edited March 6 by Rudra

[Super Atom]

Just now, Rudra said:

Stop telling others to shut up when they do something different from your claim.

 

 

It's almost like seeing into the future and knowing what some 5k poster is gonna reply with, or something.

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Stop telling others to shut up when they do something different from your claim.

 

 

It's almost like seeing into the future and knowing what some 5k poster is gonna reply with, or something.

If your argument relies on those that do different from you just shutting up, then you have no argument.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

If you don't think a level 30 should be fully slotted at all times and going forward, i think you are out of touch with the basics of City of Heroes and its relaxed game design.

I'm gonna need to see a source for that claim.  Clearly the OG devs had some calculation of what your typical 20+ character would earn, inf-wase, and priced DOs/SOs accordingly...

[nzer]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If your argument relies on those that do different from you just shutting up, then you have no argument.

 

Good thing their argument doesn't rely on that then.

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, nzer said:

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If your argument relies on those that do different from you just shutting up, then you have no argument.

 

Good thing their argument doesn't rely on that then.

 

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

this is a very team centric game (but i SolOOLolOollo. shut up)

 

[Super Atom]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If your argument relies on those that do different from you just shutting up, then you have no argument.

 

Has absolutely nothing to do with my argument. The shut up was because there would be someone who 100% laser focuses on how they solo, failing to once again realize this isn't about them.

 

1 minute ago, biostem said:

I'm gonna need to see a source for that claim.  Clearly the OG devs had some calculation of what your typical 20+ character would earn, inf-wase, and priced DOs/SOs accordingly...

 

What source is it you think exists outside of a difference in ideology? City of Heroes by nature is a very relaxed and easy MMO. My claim of a character being fully slotted by 30 is no more backed by a source than your claim they shouldn't be. With the exception i put up the idea that since the game is balanced around you being slotted with SO's, by 30 right before they start handing you 3 slots instead of 2, you should already be fully slotted and able to maintain it and experience the game as intended by the developers.

 

Also, i honestly doubt the xp/inf rate is the same this whole time and things got adjusted but i'm not 100% enough to make that claim with any kind of confidence.

[Luminara]

I don't think reducing the price significantly is actually a good idea, as it risks encouraging the notion that a player can or should keep all SOs at +3 at all times, "since they're so cheap".  That could have the opposite effect, costing the player more inf* in the long run, if they try to maintain their slotted enhancements at max instead of saving for what they need.  There's also the question of whether sale prices would be cut as well, and I suspect they would be, given the efforts to date invested in regulating inflation.  If that does happen, it magnifies the problem, rather than resolves it.

 

I also don't see free SOs as a viable option.  If they can still be sold, that's open to exploitation.  If they can't be sold, that's cutting off a supply of inf* for those same new players who supposedly can't afford to buy SOs now.  Neither is an improvement.

 

Change the drop tables.  Force the game to always drop SOs for character origin instead of enemy group origin.  SOs equate to basic gear in other games, the almost useless crap you're given or collect from trash mobs to keep you running on the gear treadmill.  If you want better leveling gear in those games, you grind for cash/salable drops and use the proceeds to buy what you want on the game's auction house.  So treat SOs like that.  More of what drops will be immediately useful, either in an empty slot or combined with a slotted SO, and the leftovers can still be sold at full current sale value.  Less inf* spent, more slots filled, net improvement in income without impacting the game negatively so they can save up for the switch to IOs.

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

What source is it you think exists outside of a difference in ideology? City of Heroes by nature is a very relaxed and easy MMO. My claim of a character being fully slotted by 30 is no more backed by a source than your claim they shouldn't be.

My source is the inf granted by defeats/mission completions vs the cost of DOs/SOs, as set by the OG devs.  If they wanted you to be fully slotted at all times, (at least 20+), then they would have adjusted their costs or the rewards accordingly.  Obviously they didn't do that, so their intent was that one NOT be fully slotted...

Edited March 6 by biostem

[Super Atom]

8 minutes ago, biostem said:

My source is the inf granted by defeats/mission completions vs the cost of DOs/SOs, as set by the devs.  If they wanted you to be fully slotted at all times, (at least 20+), then they would hav adjusted their costs or the rewards accordingly.

 

again, this is a difference in opinion of intention. I believe not being able to afford SO's in your 30s is currently an oversight that was never adjusted with xp/inf rates.

 

I would also ask, why on live could you fully complete one morality path(gold side) completely without disabling XP while you currently cannot on homecoming. (This does not include XP boosters). There are repeatable mission contacts that you used on live to reach the next step in the questlines that go completely unused due to a difference in base XP rates. Something doesn't quite add up. If the xp/inf rates were designed so carefully, why is it different on homecoming?

Edited March 6 by Super Atom

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

again, this is a difference in opinion of intention. I believe not being able to afford SO's in your 30s is currently an oversight that was never adjusted with xp/inf rates.

Move the goal posts much?

 

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I would also ask, why on live could you fully complete one morality path(gold side) completely without disabling XP while you currently cannot on homecoming. (This does not include XP boosters). There are repeatable mission contacts that you used on live to reach the next step in the questlines that go completely unused due to a difference in base XP rates. Something doesn't quite add up. If the xp/inf rates were designed so carefully, why is it different on homecoming?

I never really dealt with the full morality paths, so I can't comment on those.  I also don't disable XP, so I can't speak to that.  Again, though, you are trying to change the topic.  There are many ways to earn enough info to fully kit yourself out, if that's what you want.  You just don't want to have to do any of them.  That's fine, but don't then complain that your preferred method of inf generation isn't working out for you.

[nzer]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Move the goal posts much?

 

They're not moving the goalposts, your argument is genuinely fallacious. The original devs were not infallible, so you can't assume something being the way it is is concrete proof it was intended to be that way. Charitably, the disagreement is indeed just a difference of opinion.

[Super Atom]

Just now, biostem said:

Move the goal posts much?

 

I never really dealt with the full morality paths, so I can't comment on those.  I also don't disable XP, so I can't speak to that.  Again, though, you are trying to change the topic.  There are many ways to earn enough info to fully kit yourself out, if that's what you want.  You just don't want to have to do any of them.  That's fine, but don't then complain that your preferred method of inf generation isn't working out for you.

 

None of the goal posts got moved, I called your claim of the xp/inf rates being carefully designed by the OG devs with intent for you not be slotted into question while citing its current inf/xp/enhancement as an oversight in balance on homecomings part. I also provided an example of homecoming xp rates vs live xp rates that is well documented as an ongoing issue gold side faces. You just don't like that it directly strikes down your claim of a careful well designed balance in xp/inf/enhancement.

 

This isn't about me not being able to afford anything and its something you and everyone else who opposed this basic suggestion to help new players can't seem to understand. This isn't about veteran players who can easily navigate this game. This is a real problem new players face and complain about daily in help channels.