Is there more depth to villain groups?

[temnix]

I would like to know more about the villain groups in this game, but is there more to know? For example, I am particularly curious about the Lost, but it is told right upon meeting them, in their ID cards, that they are mutants, and before long I get into simple quests about them where they drag the homeless down into the sewers and apparently subject them to a deluge of sewage with promises that "soon you will be like us." Is there any more of a story behind them? Will I ever find out where they are getting Rikti weapons or what the inspiration is behind their changes, their point of view, or is it just some quasi-Lovecraftian sideshow? There is a quest, promising on the surface, to defeat 10 of them and get samples of their blood, but that leads to nowhere. Or take the Skulls: I have done half of their story act, learned a little about their leaders, but all I know about the organization is still what I read in their descriptions in the beginning - that they are a death cult (yet somehow also dedicated drug pushers). Well, have they had any success in overcoming death? Or take the Vahzilok: from the first ID cards I knew they were creations of someone called Dr. Vahzilok, and by the end of his story arc I knew just a little more about his motivation. Is this all the depth there is to the groups? How about digging deeper, then, developers? I am not interested in reading up on these groups in some wiki, I'm interested in encounters that have something to tell me. I'm not going to stick around until level 50 otherwise.

[cranebump]

You do realize the current devs didn’t write most of the old blueside stuff right? 
 

Beyond that, certain things will eventually come to light via play (like the Lost, whose true origin you can almost surmise right now, if you out the clues together). Other stuff you leave behind. You want to know more about Dr. Vahz without reading a wiki? Good luck. Vahzilok arcs end at level 20. Skulls? They’re a street level gang with some connection to the ‘Dine trade. Need more than that? Well, there isn’t more, since they, too, cap at 20 (in AE, anyway…in game maybe lower). By the time you’re at 20, you’re moving on to Warriors, Sky Raiders, Tsoo etc. There are, in fact, only a few groups that span levels 1-54. They’re the…well…you should check the wiki.:-)

 

(or maybe play redside, which has a nice “Destined Ones” arc you can follow, or Goldside, which has you working with various factions)

[dtjunkie]

1 hour ago, temnix said:

Will I ever find out where they are getting Rikti weapons or what the inspiration is behind their changes, their point of view, or is it just some quasi-Lovecraftian sideshow?

 

Yes. Play Montague Castanella's arc.

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

 I have done half of their story act, learned a little about their leaders, but all I know about the organization is still what I read in their descriptions in the beginning - that they are a death cult (yet somehow also dedicated drug pushers). Well, have they had any success in overcoming death?

 

Play the rest of the King's Row Skulls arc (Eagle Eye)

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

IOr take the Vahzilok: from the first ID cards I knew they were creations of someone called Dr. Vahzilok, and by the end of his story arc I knew just a little more about his motivation. Is this all the depth there is to the groups? How about digging deeper, then, developers?

 

Run Posi 1& 2. You can solo Posi 1. Also, run Agent Watkins arc. Then run Doc Buzzsaw's arc.

 

Edited February 29 by dtjunkie

[dtjunkie]

2 minutes ago, cranebump said:

You do realize the current devs didn’t write most of the old blueside stuff right? 
 

Beyond that, certain things will eventually come to light via play (like the Lost, whose true origin you can almost surmise right now, if you out the clues together). Other stuff you leave behind. You want to know more about Dr. Vahz without reading a wiki? Good luck. Vahzilok arcs end at level 20. Skulls? They’re a street level gang with some connection to the ‘Dine trade. Need more than that? Well, there isn’t more, since they, too, cap at 20 (in AE, anyway…in game maybe lower). By the time you’re at 20, you’re moving on to Warriors, Sky Raiders, Tsoo etc. There are, in fact, only a few groups that span levels 1-54. They’re the…well…you should check the wiki.:-)

 

(or maybe play redside, which has a nice “Destined Ones” arc you can follow, or Goldside, which has you working with various factions)

 

I disagree with this to a certain extent. The Petrovic brothers (Skulls) play a role (albeit off-screen) in Provost Marchand's 30+ arc. You can also encounter them again in Doc Buzzsaw's new arc (The Freakish Lab of Dr. Vahzilok 30+), which implies some future content ("The Lords of Death are still out there, Character. As is my sister").

 

 

Also the new content with Agent Watkins and Doc Buzzsaw has extended the Vahzilok content out through the 30s.

 

 

[cranebump]

You are correct @dtjunkie. There certainly is more about the Skulls than I allowed for in my post, above. I don't usually run Watkins or Buzzie, which may explain that. Thanks for the catch!

[DougGraves]

The villain groups generally have a fair amount of depth but the lore is spread out among story arcs from contacts.

[Snarky]

21 hours ago, temnix said:

I would like to know more about the villain groups in this game, but is there more to know? For example, I am particularly curious about the Lost, but it is told right upon meeting them, in their ID cards, that they are mutants, and before long I get into simple quests about them where they drag the homeless down into the sewers and apparently subject them to a deluge of sewage with promises that "soon you will be like us." Is there any more of a story behind them? Will I ever find out where they are getting Rikti weapons or what the inspiration is behind their changes, their point of view, or is it just some quasi-Lovecraftian sideshow? There is a quest, promising on the surface, to defeat 10 of them and get samples of their blood, but that leads to nowhere. Or take the Skulls: I have done half of their story act, learned a little about their leaders, but all I know about the organization is still what I read in their descriptions in the beginning - that they are a death cult (yet somehow also dedicated drug pushers). Well, have they had any success in overcoming death? Or take the Vahzilok: from the first ID cards I knew they were creations of someone called Dr. Vahzilok, and by the end of his story arc I knew just a little more about his motivation. Is this all the depth there is to the groups? How about digging deeper, then, developers? I am not interested in reading up on these groups in some wiki, I'm interested in encounters that have something to tell me. I'm not going to stick around until level 50 otherwise.

Your lack of knowledge of the game is near complete.  There are so many good stories. Run Timothy Raymonds arc in Nerva (redside) to learn something about the Lost. But there is more than that…

 

So many villain groups have huge lore.  Not all. I just started a soldier of arachnos crab.  Surprisingly little back story.  They are arachnos swat headed up by Mako.  That is the whole lore.  I am like…thats it?  I never even liked fish face….  Like, maybe BS and using suit tech to…. Sigh.  I could so write better than some if these plot lines. 
 

But the Lost plot?   Deep, wide, worth exploring. The Freaks and Trolls, while not as deep as Lost, are very entwined in a lot of plot Blueside.  The Carnies?  Wow, so many twists.  And on, and on, and….

[Lines]

If you really want depth, there is a lore bible out there somewhere. It isn't small.

 

I would say that the game itself is not good at delivering the lore or the stories, which I think is mostly an interface problem. The stories are definitely there, it just doesn't signpost players towards them or how they connect.

[Jack Power]

If you want all the answers to all the stories you have to run all the content. That means lots of alts. Read all clues and souvenirs. Usually a neglected source of story and lore.

 

If you don't want to look at the wiki on the different factions, look up the contacts. They usually handle only one faction an after you have helped them out with whatever they need your help with they refere you to another contact or two. If there's a choice, you could refer to the wiki to follow the trail of the Lost or whomever you're currently hunting.

 

Go. Hunt. Kil Skulls.

 

//Jack

Edited March 1 by Jack Power

[KITANYA]

Always thought that the majority of The Lost were once humans who were experimented on by The Rikti. (Alien Abduction!)

 

Some are mutants, others cloned by The Rikti maybe?

 

 

Anathemas look like a Hybrid between a Rikti and a Human.

 

Then The Lost themselves coerced homeless people to add to their ranks.

 

The old TV-set helmets are hilarious! 😄

 

 

[Major_Decoy]

These are all pretty common questions and I'm here to be as helpful as possible* with answers.

 

The Lost are from the future that's why they're warning people that "you'll soon be like us" They're getting their weapons scavenging Rikti warships in the future after Vanguard has been defeated and no one is standing guard over crash sites.

 

The Skulls aren't really a death cult, they're a cult of worms. They undergo a transformation that turns them into invertebrates, the only bone they have left afterwards is their skull. The drug they deal is called Spice. It's a Dune reference. That's why the badge for defeating 50,000 of them is titled "Walk Without Rhythm"

 

Dr. Vahzilok isn't hard to understand: There are currently no laws protecting the rights of the dead. Technically, the dead are property, so if you can prove the identification of a corpse, you can sue whoever is defiling it, but if a corpse cannot be identified (because it's disfigured or wearing a mask, like all of the Vahzilok) then it has no protects. So Dr. Vahzilok exploits this for free labor. Since he's based in Paragon, he gets to label all of his products with "Made in the USA". When you finally face him, he's on a golden throne, surrounded by jewels.

 

*I may have overstated my desire to be helpful.

[Worm_Kalpa]

As others have said, the deeper part of the enemy group lore is in the story arcs.  Mainly the store arcs offered by older contacts, and the arcs are might be some levels higher than when you first encounter an enemy group.  For example, you learn more about how the Lost came to be and their connection to the Rikti from Eliza Thorpe's (blueside levels 25-29), Steven Sheridan's (blueside levels 35-39), and Timothy Raymond's (redside levels 30-34) missions.

 

Some mysteries are also revealed in content that came out a few years after the game was launched.  Like the Rikti War Zone arcs and Montague Castanella for the Lost and Rikti.

 

Another thing is that you can get the broad strokes and some specific answers (like what the Lost do to the homeless people they abduct) but not everything in the game lore is revealed.

[Glacier Peak]

There's the instant gratification way, just read the enemy group listing in the Homecoming wiki kindly assembled by volunteer scholars. Then there's the play each mission from every contact and read every pop up, mission text, dialogue, and souvenir - along with every badge, enemy info description and cutscene. The former is nice to do since the old user manual is dated. The latter is nice if you have time and really enjoy the story. 

 

Oh and there's this too: Know your adversary

 

 

Edited March 3 by Glacier Peak

[Latex]

On 2/29/2024 at 10:44 AM, temnix said:

I would like to know more about the villain groups in this game, but is there more to know? For example, I am particularly curious about the Lost, but it is told right upon meeting them, in their ID cards, that they are mutants, and before long I get into simple quests about them where they drag the homeless down into the sewers and apparently subject them to a deluge of sewage with promises that "soon you will be like us." Is there any more of a story behind them? Will I ever find out where they are getting Rikti weapons or what the inspiration is behind their changes, their point of view, or is it just some quasi-Lovecraftian sideshow? There is a quest, promising on the surface, to defeat 10 of them and get samples of their blood, but that leads to nowhere. Or take the Skulls: I have done half of their story act, learned a little about their leaders, but all I know about the organization is still what I read in their descriptions in the beginning - that they are a death cult (yet somehow also dedicated drug pushers). Well, have they had any success in overcoming death? Or take the Vahzilok: from the first ID cards I knew they were creations of someone called Dr. Vahzilok, and by the end of his story arc I knew just a little more about his motivation. Is this all the depth there is to the groups? How about digging deeper, then, developers? I am not interested in reading up on these groups in some wiki, I'm interested in encounters that have something to tell me. I'm not going to stick around until level 50 otherwise.

Fairly sure the majority of lore is in the 'COH Bible' might find what you're looking for there though it's only concurrent to 2004 iirc. Written by Sean Fish aka Manticore one of the original Developers, for everything else I've found the wiki works well.

CoHBible-1.pdf

[Frozen Burn]

On 2/29/2024 at 5:44 AM, temnix said:

I would like to know more about the villain groups in this game, but is there more to know? For example, I am particularly curious about the Lost, but it is told right upon meeting them, in their ID cards, that they are mutants, and before long I get into simple quests about them where they drag the homeless down into the sewers and apparently subject them to a deluge of sewage with promises that "soon you will be like us." Is there any more of a story behind them? Will I ever find out where they are getting Rikti weapons or what the inspiration is behind their changes, their point of view, or is it just some quasi-Lovecraftian sideshow? There is a quest, promising on the surface, to defeat 10 of them and get samples of their blood, but that leads to nowhere. Or take the Skulls: I have done half of their story act, learned a little about their leaders, but all I know about the organization is still what I read in their descriptions in the beginning - that they are a death cult (yet somehow also dedicated drug pushers). Well, have they had any success in overcoming death? Or take the Vahzilok: from the first ID cards I knew they were creations of someone called Dr. Vahzilok, and by the end of his story arc I knew just a little more about his motivation. Is this all the depth there is to the groups? How about digging deeper, then, developers? I am not interested in reading up on these groups in some wiki, I'm interested in encounters that have something to tell me. I'm not going to stick around until level 50 otherwise.

 

Welcome to the game!  Quite simply, yes, there is.  You just have to keep playing.  There are many, many, many arcs on your journey to lvl 50 and beyond that will explain much of what you are asking.  Many people have already posted above some specifics for you, but just simply put.... yes.  Play, play, play.  🙂  

[Marshal_General]

I was just wondering yesterday how the skulls get their power. You fight in the arena and if you live you become a Bone Daddy or Death Doll, but where do they then get darkness powers?

[Major_Decoy]

4 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

I was just wondering yesterday how the skulls get their power. You fight in the arena and if you live you become a Bone Daddy or Death Doll, but where do they then get darkness powers?

From the Spice, because they don't do interspace navigation in City of Heroes.

[Worm_Kalpa]

8 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

I was just wondering yesterday how the skulls get their power. You fight in the arena and if you live you become a Bone Daddy or Death Doll, but where do they then get darkness powers?

An archived page from the old CoH site says that

 

"The Bone Daddies are chosen through some secret, black ritual performed by the original founders of the Skulls, the Petrovic brothers.

This ritual gives them power over the negative world, and allows them to tap into spirit killing energy that they can use to feed off of their victims. Heroes who have faced them have stated that Bone Daddies are dead inside, their bodies just haven’t realized it yet."

 

I wonder where the Skulls' story would have gone if the game continued and we got a sequel to Eagle Eye's arc.  Especially since superadine, the drug the Skulls were pushing, can in rare cases grant the user the ability to see and travel to other dimensions.  At least if the wiki is true.  It would be an interesting twist if the ritual that gave darkness powers involved superadine use and connecting to the netherworld.  Like a really messed up ayahuasca trip

[StarkWhite]

On 2/29/2024 at 4:44 AM, temnix said:

I would like to know more about the villain groups in this game, but is there more to know? For example...

I think OP's issue is expecting to get a complete view of something from a single story arc or contact.

By design, the game spreads this kind of information over a ton of arcs and contacts, across a wide spread of levels and alignments. This is meant to simulate superhero comics, where getting a complete picture of even one character might involve reading many years worth of stories in a variety of different titles by a collection of different creators.

In short, all your questions have in-game answers, but you may not find them all on a single character unless you go out of your way to do so.

[StarseedWarrior]

17 hours ago, StarkWhite said:

I think OP's issue is expecting to get a complete view of something from a single story arc or contact.

By design, the game spreads this kind of information over a ton of arcs and contacts, across a wide spread of levels and alignments. This is meant to simulate superhero comics, where getting a complete picture of even one character might involve reading many years worth of stories in a variety of different titles by a collection of different creators.

In short, all your questions have in-game answers, but you may not find them all on a single character unless you go out of your way to do so.

Like most mmorpgs.