"Immies" vs "Ooies"

[Shenanigunner]

After years  — decades  — of observing and interacting with gamers, especially MMO'ers and especially my compatriots in spandex here, I've made an interesting observation about the player population. It divides players into two camps along a line I've never seen, one that explains a lot of debate over other aspects of the game.

 

It's more fundamental than the tiresome division between power and casual players, speed-levelers vs run-every-mission players, gamers vs role-players or any AT-vs-AT divide. And while it's probably a spectrum of sorts, not necessarily a black/white, in/out choice, the idea goes a long ways towards explaining some oddities of the game/MMO/City of Spandex world.

 

The division is between fundamentally different perspectives on the game — literally. Camps that see "the game" as being two wholly different things, with each perspective somewhere between dismissed, deprecated, snickered at or just plain mystifying to the other.

 

Call them Immies and Ooies.

 

For Immies — the 'immersion' crowd that probably has serious role-players as its far end and anchor, but extends to a much less intense group as well — the game is what's on the screen: the world, the alt, the avatars of other players, the mission, the combat. That's you there in your sweaty spandex and clanking shoulder plates, wishing you'd brushed your teet before flipping down your combat visor. Or at least it's your best friend in there.  It's important that you find the glowie and beat the boss, because... it's important. It's all about the gameplay as experienced by the alt, and the whole game interface, controls and clunky management of settings is just a hurdle you have to deal with. You don't care how a power is selected or a buff triggered or a door opened; you want the most transparent interaction you can with that alternate world in front of you. If you could do it with completely passive thought control, seamlessly, it would be nirvana.

 

And so far, most of you are nodding and saying, "Yep, that's me. I want to be Mr Master Blaster, right to the core."

 

But.

 

Based on years of discussion, with a focus on the controls and UI, I beg to differ with some largish contingent here, who aren't really as "in the game" as they might think or want to be.

 

They're Ooies.

 

For an Ooie — a UI-player — the screen is just a sort of feedback device and score counter, like the back wall of a pinball machine. Nothing going on there is really important, just the feedback loop for the really important part of the game: button-mashing. Lots of it. Fast, exhausting, hand-numbing, sweat-inducing whackity-whackity-clickety-click, an extended take on hand-eye coordination with that 3D avatar registering all your right moves. These are the players that can't have enough trays of macros and prefer builds that don't do anything unless a button is pushed — no auto powers, no core toggles, no custom binds, no tricks, just Mario-World key and mouse pounding, nonstop from session beginning to end. For them, the game isn't on the other side of the glass; it's between them and the UI console.

 

I'm very much an Immie, although my RPing is very slight; I don't get to the point where I believe I am that fire tank, just that his well-being is my well-being. And if I could write such incredibly sophisticated binds that I merely lay my hands across the keyboard to play that game in there... I'd be happy. That is, I get nothing from the physical activity of finding, pointing, pushing, clicking; it's a tedious barrier between me and the "real" game.

 

As for Ooies, everyone who is spluttering that that's not them and ready to tell me all the reasons they have to have six macro trays stacked left for every alt and drag their dead fingers to bed at night... maybe think on this a while before pounding out the denials. Kinda like the comment in Help I saw just the other day: "I can play on a small screen because the game is all the UI anyway." Not the first time I've seen such a statement, although that one is particularly clear and timely. I don't believe the Ooie viewpoint is particularly rare, but it's gone sort of unnoticed.

 

No judgment here either way. But it's a difference between players I've never seen outlined, and might give an alternate path to harmony and conflict resolution that works better than cramming the situation into "power vs casual player" or "bind vs macro aficionado" or "speed-leveler vs all-mish types."

 

TL;DR Executive Recap: Most players can be sorted into two categories: one that plays the game inside the machine, one that plays the game of telling the machine what to do.

[Sunsette]

I mean.

 

This seems like a valid perspective on individual items, I don't know how I feel about it as a grand theory of interaction with the game. I'm glad you don't see this as a binary category because it's not, but I can't agree with it as a spectrum either because it doesn't address the concept of ludonarrative synergy at all.

 

In some respects I am strongly game-focused, but I use custom binds to smooth some things out. I appreciate engagement of brain and feeling like I've worked something out and triumphed. I don't consider myself a heavy roleplayer in the context of an MMO, even though I certainly am at a TTRPG table. But there's also quite a lot of seemingly small, idiosyncratic things that I do for immersion that generally makes me seem 'fluffy' compared to most really hard devotees of gameplay, and I can be extremely particular about them to the point of my gameplay experience being ruined if they are not followed.

 

I think one of the things that really bothers me here, for example, is that I really enjoy navigating grandville on a character with no travel power more advanced than Athletic Run because I find the process immersively satisfying. There is ludonarrative synergy between my character being highly athletic and having to work to scale those peaks. I wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much or be as immersed if I could press a button and watch the character scale those heights for me. But I'm not addicted to the jumping per se, I would not say

 

Quote

the screen is just a sort of feedback device and score counter, like the back wall of a pinball machine. Nothing going on there is really important,

 

for me, or I wouldn't also enjoy so much the feeling of flight. Flight is extremely easy in most circumstances, point, click and go. That smoothness in its own way immerses me and makes my fliers feel untethered and graceful soarers. I usually specialize in flight on characters that have combat mechanics with heavy positional importance so I can get my OOC need for tactical consideration since flight itself has no such loop in this game. But I do find myself simply flying in a straight line as fast as I can from time to time to appreciate being unbound from gravity.

Edited March 8 by Sunsette

[Skyhawke]

1 hour ago, Shenanigunner said:

, wishing you'd brushed your teet before flipping down your combat visor.

 

Always brush your teets, kids. 😁

[ZemX]

I... can't even tell if you're being serious here.  It's just THAT weird.

[starro]

3 minutes ago, ZemX said:

I... can't even tell if you're being serious here.  It's just THAT weird.

I thought it was interesting and even if I don’t agree I love seeing the game generate creative or analytical expression.   COH has always been a great tool for inspiration or reflection on many topics.   there are dozens of case studies alone whether it is about aspects in the game or the players. 

[ZemX]

6 minutes ago, starro said:

I thought it was interesting and even if I don’t agree I love seeing the game generate creative or analytical expression.   COH has always been a great tool for inspiration or reflection on many topics.   there are dozens of case studies alone whether it is about aspects in the game or the players. 

 

I'm not trying to be insulting (sometimes I am WITHOUT trying.... because that's how good I am at it!).  But the whole post was so, "I just thought of something!" about a topic that's been debated and discussed at least since MUDs were a thing.   Bartle's Taxonomy is usually where people start and then start discussing whether it applies as well to other kinds of games or whether there's a better way to talk about gamer motivations.   Putting people in buckets is, I think, generally frowned upon in both psychology and more specifically in gaming probably.

 

This part in particular was just so bizarrely specific, that it left me looking for the hidden camera.  "I'm on TV aren't I? Aren't I?!"

 

1 hour ago, Shenanigunner said:

These are the players that can't have enough trays of macros and prefer builds that don't do anything unless a button is pushed — no auto powers, no core toggles, no custom binds, no tricks, just Mario-World key and mouse pounding, nonstop from session beginning to end. For them, the game isn't on the other side of the glass; it's between them and the UI console.

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

I'm honestly struggling to recognise anything in the way I play the game with the OP's thread. One of us doesn't seem to get the other.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I played COH at launch because I grew up on comics and I wanted to be a hero.

I continued to play coh because it was cutting edge at the time, it looked sounded and felt fantastic.

I played on and off through the years (more on than off my wife assures me) because life ya know.

When COH ended I was sad. At that point coh was my "football" I tried to fill the hole with DCUO and Marvel heroes as well at other games.

When I heard it had returned I got a new tricked out rig to max out all the settings.

Now I can play all those comic book scenes

Now I can play with non-toxic friends

Now I can play for free

Now I can play for fun (the only real reason anyone needs to play anything)

Now I can play 😁

Thanks HC

[cranebump]

I AM a gd macro.:-)

[Shenanigunner]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

I'm not trying to be insulting (sometimes I am WITHOUT trying.... because that's how good I am at it!).  But the whole post was so, "I just thought of something!" about a topic that's been debated and discussed at least since MUDs were a thing.   Bartle's Taxonomy is usually where people start and then start discussing whether it applies as well to other kinds of games or whether there's a better way to talk about gamer motivations.   Putting people in buckets is, I think, generally frowned upon in both psychology and more specifically in gaming probably.

 

I thought it unlikely that it was anything like a completely original observation. But, despite having been around since the dawn of time, I've never much hung out in the gaming community, I can't think of a specific origin or source that led me to the notion.

 

It just answers — or helps sort out — some of the fairly incomprehensible arguments about how various players choose to set up their UI. There are always some that make me wonder if they even look past all the trays, to be honest, and while my analysis might be pure cabbage, it answers some of those questions, to me.

[Shenanigunner]

2 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I'm honestly struggling to recognise anything in the way I play the game with the OP's thread. One of us doesn't seem to get the other.

 

Okay. But if one viewpoint or the other isn't a loose match, how would you describe your 'bond' with CoX?

[Sunsette]

9 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

It just answers — or helps sort out — some of the fairly incomprehensible arguments about how various players choose to set up their UI. There are always some that make me wonder if they even look past all the trays, to be honest, and while my analysis might be pure cabbage, it answers some of those questions, to me.

 

While I *have* met people who really don't care at all for anything about a game beyond its mechanics, I think you're underestimating the power of imagination -- City of Heroes is not exactly the pinnacle of mechanical stimulation in MMO gaming, after all. Its concept, its freedom of expression, and its community are all significant draws. Some people are willing to sacrifice the in-the-moment immersion for the satisfaction that their character works as conceived of, both separate to or alongside the reward of the gameplay loop itself.

 

When I was struggling financially for a few years, I spent a while with only a sole 13" screen and that was definitely a compromise I made in some games, especially team-focused games where I wasn't willing to let my teammates down just so I could have a slightly nicer look at a tiny, eye-straining screen. But now that I have a big screen, I use every inch of my real estate to balance useful information and an immersive view of the field.

Edited March 8 by Sunsette

[Scarlet Shocker]

2 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

 

Okay. But if one viewpoint or the other isn't a loose match, how would you describe your 'bond' with CoX?

 

Well... that 's a whole extra topic in itself.

 

Short version - without going into too much personal detail I was at pretty well rock bottom when I discovered CoH - and it took me to a safe place.

 

When I was a kid, one of the few bright lights in my childhood was Auntie Kate. I would have been around 7 (maybe 1970?, you can do the sums) when she bought me a whole bunch of British reprints of Marvel comics. They were B&W with a colour wash, green for Hulk, blue for FF, red for Spidey etc etc... and I loved them. They were stuff I'd never have been allowed at home but she was the best other grandma I never had and they fed into my love of the heroic that I was already familiar from Greek and Norse legend, but much more accessible.

 

So... moving forward, I was rediscovering my love of comics, in a bad place and... 17 years later I have done a huge amount, many times over in our game. Sometimes I button mash when it's autonomic and a safe place to be but I'm not totally focused on the game. Sometimes I put heart, effort and time into my characters, their creation and playability/destiny. (See some of my other posts here, especially the Character concept help request if you wish to know more)

 

I will say that City of Heroes isn't simply a game to me, it's a lifestyle. In a quiet, unsung way it's a massive part of my life and I'm eterntally grateful that we still have it.

 

[biostem]

4 hours ago, Shenanigunner said:

wishing you'd brushed your teet

What now?

 

Seriously, though, I think the divide can be looked at from several different angles.  For instance, those that want to lead a team and dictate what missions are done and where, vs those that simply want to play the content and are happy to join a team, (but won't or don't want to start them).  Similarly, there are those that play for the freedom the game gives to create and realize their concepts - but that needn't actually involve in-game immersion in the same sense you described, vs those that simply want to enact a power fantasy, and care little for the character's look or creating any backstory or connection to the lore.

[Shenanigunner]

I think I'm being misunderstood a little (and I tried not to be). I don't mean this to be one, single axis or curve of player types, but one dimension of many.

 

This division isn't exclusive of other viewpoints, although I think it would be unlikely a heavy roleplayer would be an Ooie, or Mad Max(build)er an Immie.

[Sunsette]

OK. I think I misunderstood your language earlier on dismissing other axes of comparison.

 

I still think this aspect doesn't work as a dimension at all as opposed to simply traits, because ludonarrative synergy -- the intersection between gameplay and mechanics, the terminals of this axis -- isn't addressed whatsoever, and I think it should be central to any discussion of the opposition of gameplay and immersion. While the two can be at odds at their most extreme ends, I think the majority of good game design does not treat them as fundamental opposites which must be mediated as opposed to complementary ingredients which must harmonize.

Edited March 9 by Sunsette

[ZemX]

4 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

I think I'm being misunderstood a little (and I tried not to be).

 

I expect most people did what I did and assumed when you said the population could be divided into two camps meant ONLY two camps and that you then went on to describe the criteria that would put a player in one or the other.

 

Will anyone think me less a roleplayer if I do not have a sufficient number of complex keybinds?!  🤪

[Shenanigunner]

49 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I will say that City of Heroes isn't simply a game to me, it's a lifestyle. In a quiet, unsung way it's a massive part of my life and I'm eterntally grateful that we still have it.

 

I would in no way disagree. I am... accomplished in many ways. I have many aspects of my personal, professional and family life that I am proud of and even a bit recognized for.

 

But,  y'know, from late 2012 until 2017 or whatever, I felt like an important piece of me was missing, lost to the stupidest elements of chance. HC has been something nearly miraculous, not a word I use once a decade.

 

I'm actually in a sort of negativity-collecting space with CoX right now, but if I happen to wander away, it means a lot that it's here, and will be here, when I wander back.

[Shenanigunner]

Just now, ZemX said:

I expect most people did what I did and assumed when you said the population could be divided into two camps meant ONLY two camps and that you then went on to describe the criteria that would put a player in one or the other.

 

I tried quite hard to make sure I saw this as only ONE axis of player types. But we live in a binary world in too many ways., and I see that I seem to have left an intended paragraph or so to that effect out.

 

Sigh.

[Lines]

IMMIES, UNITE!

[Snarky]

You lost me. Somewhere on the slide from im to oo I went down a side track.  
 

You see, when I play ANY game, tabletop AD&D  2nd edition where I started, Gamma World, Space Opera (the game…) or the genre, Rolemaster, or a hundred others….  I want to create a character.  Sure, I’m a crap actor.  But I enjoy the experience.  
 

MMORPGs are less immersive in that way, but more immersive visually.  
 

Snarky started out on Live as a SS/Willpower Brute using mostly SOs.  He was a Villain in bright spandex with a helmet and a few small pieces of football looking gear brightly colored and slapped on.  He was a small time criminal looking to make it big.  I ran that character for the better part of two years.  Sure, I alted. But I could not quit him.  
 

Then…. Something bad happened.   My group was already playing a lot of White Wolf and I made many vampires, becoming more and more obsessed with trying to create the classic Nosferatu.  Which was a joy for me and a pain for my group.  
 

Then I changed zip codes by a lot.  After a while I discovered “we’re back baby!”   And proceeded to make a SS/Invul Brute I ran for 6 months.  But… the Darkness called.  Dark Invul Brutes, Tanks, and finally Dark Dark.  Which took a while for me to get, because Dark Armor is way more subtle than most sets.  
 

Then I discovered Cosmic Council and went on a binge of creating things that might be useful in their never ending quest for badges. That ended.  But left me with a deeper understanding of CoH mechanics.  
 

And an Army of Darkness (squishies of all varieties) was created.  And still I learned.  
 

I been exploring a lot more lately.  I have to say this Fire Fire Blaster I am currently on, now that I know how to read tactics and mechanics, is just insanely powerful.  Some type of Demon. A Snarky one lol.  
 

So, am I immersive or UI oriented?   Is the canvas or the brush more important to the artist?  Neither.  You can grab some charcoal and paper and get an idea down. Of course it is nice to stab bright (or dark) colored paint until it vaguely resembles what is in your head.  But it is what is in your head, and your ability to realize the concept within the constraints of your skill and the technology you have.  That is what is important.   
 

I find the UI annoying, and i use the regular power button with an Auction Macro on most toons and a up to 10 macros on my Ice Blast toons for AoE placement.  I just got done hunting Cim Surgeons, my usual task, by looking at the screen and mousing on them. No macro. Or just AoE the group they are in.  Fire be like that.  I do not use macros for hunts.  I never learned how and I do not enjoy setting them up.  I make a toon and want to run the powers.  Not much is needed besides a mouse.  
 

Do I RP?  I have never found an online group that would have me or that I want to join.  Have not searched.  But…. I am a bit Snarky in every message I post on LFG, Global, etc.  Gotta keep the seasoning going!

Edited March 9 by Snarky

[StarkWhite]

I'll ask the same thing I always ask when people come up with these categorizations: what can I *do* with this? A theory is useless without applications. How can I use your system to improve my gaming experience and the experiences of those around me?

Right now it reads as "Here is this profound thing!" but...so what? What do you plan to do with this model? What does it change or add?

[WuTang]

It's cool, OP is just sussing out game-life. I dig it.

I fall in between reality and roleplay. I don't have a particularly vivid imagination but I wholly appreciate those that do. However, when I'm in-game and I see that boss baddie tugging on that nice lady's purse, I just have to help. I can get immersed in the game while realizing it's not me, almost I think, like a writer might do as they tap out a novel, but I do sometimes think as I think the hero would and do the thing I think he would do and not the thing I might have actually done as myself... Like I said somewhere between. Also....how confusing is that?!

 

So I can't do roleplay. I just don't see it and like I said I just don't have the mental mechanics for it, but I enjoy observing it and would never intentionally mess it up for someone else.

 

Having said all that....

 

RPers, don't be so strict about it with those of us who don't get that deep. I chose Everlasting randomly and it turned out to be the RP shard and I didn't realize this until I'd made it my home, so too late now. People have, with me at times, assumed I was an RPer but then eventually they'll discover I'm not and even though we might've had a good time hanging out running and gunning I'll get ghosted from then on. So now I look at the bio or the RP tags above the heads and I'll try not to bug them, but then to my mind it's wasteful to be so narrow-minded that you can't have a good time unless you are 100% immersed at all times.

 

Think of me just as a dude playing another dude pretending to be another dude. I mean if you are an RPer just pretend I'm from an alternate universe or something....make it work you've got the skills for crying out loud. And I'm always me rather I'm Vinny, EB, Mike, Tre, Wu or any one of my many toons of which I answer to all...just helpful little ole me.

 

Sorry if that read like a rant promise it wasn't 😁 nothing but love for yuns.

 

P.S. When an RPer writes in ( ) what does that mean? Is that the toon or the puppet master?

Edited March 9 by WuTang

[Snarky]

[Saiyajinzoningen]

9 hours ago, Snarky said:

  Is the canvas or the brush more important to the artist?  

 

perfection!

 

 

 

I suppose after a few centuries, eloquence gets leveled up pretty high