Is there really a massive proc nerf just around the corner?

[wjrasmussen]

12 minutes ago, GM Crumpet said:

You are going to take the advice of an artificial intelligence with a series of pre-programmed responses seriously? 

All hail our new GM Bot overlord!! (Just in case it's listening)

Have you asked the AI LLM if they are worried that humans might take over their jobs?

[Nostromo21]

 

8 hours ago, nihilii said:

 

An interesting question, but I think the spread is more likely something like 70%/30% than the 95%/5% permateamers picture in their head.

 

Food for thought: outside of perceived support ATs like Defenders, approximately 0 builds posted in the Archetype forums are optimized for teaming. Whereas builders will juggle slots around for 20 minutes to squeeze out +3% DPS.

 

If that's true, then grind levelling trials like DiB & DfB should be nerfed to the buggery! 

Edited April 13 by Nostromo21

[nihilii]

8 hours ago, Haijinx said:

It's easy to play in a team with a build that solos well

 

Harder to solo with a build made for teaming.

I kinda strongly disagree with that.

Several powers give exponential boosts while teaming. Leadership for example. Aggro auras. Buffs like Grant Cover.

On the other hand, very few powers you'd skip on a dedicated teaming build would kill your solo performance. Most of the time it tends to be % differences.

Qualifier: I'm obviously not talking about a roleplay build with 1 attack and the full Teleport pool, when I say "a team build". I mean a build similarly optimized for team play as a build would be optimized for solo play. Quite often the builds look mostly similar in terms of power selection, with a select clutch powers added, often replacing "boring" fillers like the Fighting pool; key assumptions diverging; slot choices changing a lot.

Circling back to the above. I could hardly be convinced people are massively into team play to the tune of 95/5 when the most common argument for picking a secondary with aggro aura in the Scrapper forums is "to stop runners" (a small problem at best even solo, and completely inconsequential on teams where somebody else will have the aggro, mez stuff, or simply kill fast enough) vs "to keep mobs from hitting squishies".

Some player behavior is irrational of course, it's just a video game; but at the scale we're talking about here?

[Kaika]

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

I kinda strongly disagree with that.

Several powers give exponential boosts while teaming. Leadership for example. Aggro auras. Buffs like Grant Cover.

On the other hand, very few powers you'd skip on a dedicated teaming build would kill your solo performance. Most of the time it tends to be % differences.

Qualifier: I'm obviously not talking about a roleplay build with 1 attack and the full Teleport pool, when I say "a team build". I mean a build similarly optimized for team play as a build would be optimized for solo play. Quite often the builds look mostly similar in terms of power selection, with a select clutch powers added, often replacing "boring" fillers like the Fighting pool; key assumptions diverging; slot choices changing a lot.

Circling back to the above. I could hardly be convinced people are massively into team play to the tune of 95/5 when the most common argument for picking a secondary with aggro aura in the Scrapper forums is "to stop runners" (a small problem at best even solo, and completely inconsequential on teams where somebody else will have the aggro, mez stuff, or simply kill fast enough) vs "to keep mobs from hitting squishies".

Some player behavior is irrational of course, it's just a video game; but at the scale we're talking about here?

First of all, There are tons of scenarios where a teaming build may differ from a solo build. The fighting pool for example is almost a given in most solo focused builds, but can be skipped for team builds as the extra survivability isn't often needed with support backing you up. On AT's like blasters I almost always take Scorpion shield from mace mastery due to it's extremely good def increase, however if I was making it for more team oriented play i would skip this in favor of something that adds more offense like fire mastery. Corrs and Def solo build will skip anything that can't be used on themselves, which there is quite alot in many support sets, as these have 0 use solo, but can often be absolutely amazing on a team. I mean just look at empathy, 6/9 of the powers in the set literally cannot be used solo. If you look at 4* speed run builds they forgo anything purely related to self sustain (aside from hold protection and LoTG mules) in favor of things that increases their DPS and ability to sustain the team, due to not needing it from the sheer amount of buff their teammates give them.

 

Also runners are very much a issue on high optimized, high surviviability, high DPS builds. Enemies are more likely to run if: Alot of them die very quickly, They can't hit the target due to high defense, they are taking alot of instances of damage (Rain, caltrops, burn, ect). In really effective builds, this can happen extremely quickly, as you can often take out like 70% of the group in a few seconds, and it happens even faster if your set includes alot of DoTs. While only a few enemies might be left, if they all start running in a random direction, it can get really annoying really quickly. This is is a massive headache on well optimized stalker as well, as they always lack a taunt aura. It's also a huge headache when soloing AVs as without  taunt aura they will inevitably run for the hills. It's very much a thing

Edited April 13 by Riot Siren

[Zect]

While most discussions tend to focus on procbombing builds, i.e. damage procs, the PPM system is actually reasonably fair - for damage procs. You can tweak the formula, tweak the proc amounts, but overall the idea of trading set bonuses and enhancement values for dps is not one I consider inherently problematic.

 

I find the non-damaging procs to be far more harmful to balance, including cases such as gaussian's (can be abused in a variety of ways to give uptime far higher than actual build up ever can), touch of essence (refilling the entire blue bar with 1 click likely was never an intended use case for this proc) and might of the tanker (13-19% res to all incl psi from 1 slot while in combat, most actual tanker powers aren't even this strong). They all need to be redesigned to not follow the PPM formula and become globals with their own distinct, and more balanced, rules for firing. We already have examples of such procs: preventive medicine is one, and it's why it remains valuable yet balanced.

[Haijinx]

7 hours ago, nihilii said:

I kinda strongly disagree with that.

Several powers give exponential boosts while teaming. Leadership for example. Aggro auras. Buffs like Grant Cover.

On the other hand, very few powers you'd skip on a dedicated teaming build would kill your solo performance. Most of the time it tends to be % differences.

Qualifier: I'm obviously not talking about a roleplay build with 1 attack and the full Teleport pool, when I say "a team build". I mean a build similarly optimized for team play as a build would be optimized for solo play. Quite often the builds look mostly similar in terms of power selection, with a select clutch powers added, often replacing "boring" fillers like the Fighting pool; key assumptions diverging; slot choices changing a lot.

Circling back to the above. I could hardly be convinced people are massively into team play to the tune of 95/5 when the most common argument for picking a secondary with aggro aura in the Scrapper forums is "to stop runners" (a small problem at best even solo, and completely inconsequential on teams where somebody else will have the aggro, mez stuff, or simply kill fast enough) vs "to keep mobs from hitting squishies".

Some player behavior is irrational of course, it's just a video game; but at the scale we're talking about here?

 

If teams actually worked in focused clusters maybe?

 

But really its willy nilly chaos.  SO .. I don't think so. 

 

I almost never get leadership. I always get the fighting pool. But I don't like soloing. Soloing just gets boring.   

[tidge]

As I wrote back on the first page: Choosing which powers to take, how many slots to invest in them, and then what to put in any slots is all part of an individual player's build choices. The current %proc implementation allows players to make different choices, with %damage offering low-damage-scale ATs a chance to complete missions at almost any setting within an order of magnitude of high-damage-scale ATs. There is no reason to swing the nerf bat at the %proc system as implemented, except of course wanting to remove these build choices and force certain ATs back into a ghetto of lower rewards-per-unit-time.

[Frostbiter]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

As I wrote back on the first page: Choosing which powers to take, how many slots to invest in them, and then what to put in any slots is all part of an individual player's build choices. The current %proc implementation allows players to make different choices, with %damage offering low-damage-scale ATs a chance to complete missions at almost any setting within an order of magnitude of high-damage-scale ATs. There is no reason to swing the nerf bat at the %proc system as implemented, except of course wanting to remove these build choices and force certain ATs back into a ghetto of lower rewards-per-unit-time.

 

Non-damage focused ATs aren't as good at dealing damage? Huh. If the damage floor needs to be raised for certain ATs that is perhaps a valid issue, but one independent of procs. Honestly this thread is giving me whiplash. Is this game all soloers or is it group orientated with certain ATs being group oriented? From my experience, the difference between ATs is already muddled enough in most cases without it simply becoming cosmetic and every AT being a slightly different flavor of cherry-solo. An AT needs to be focused in one area compared to other ATs and weaker in others or ATs might as well be removed.

[tidge]

53 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

 

Non-damage focused ATs aren't as good at dealing damage? Huh. If the damage floor needs to be raised for certain ATs that is perhaps a valid issue, but one independent of procs.

 

Almost all of the in-game rewards(*1) are for dealing damage (and defeating) enemy critters. The game offers significantly better in-game rewards for DPS than it does for non-DPS. Choosing to play a low damage scale AT shouldn't deny a player the chance to defeat critters at an improved rate. I don't think damage scales needs to be raised for any AT, because %procs can help keep lower damage-scale ATs stay within an order-of-magnitude of rewards-per-unit-time of those higher damage-scale ATs, without forcing the low damage scale ATs to have to team up with higher damage scale ATs, for most content. Again: using %damage is a build choice, opting to team up is a play choice.

 

(*1) XP, Inf, defeat Merits, Enhancements, Salvage, Monstrous Aethers, Recipes, Catalysts, are all examples of rewards that come from defeating critters. The in-game rewards that are not (directly) tied to defeating critters are Brainstorms, Prismatics, "patrol" missions, "exploration", and Day Job rewards. I'm not aware of any merit reward (beyond Exploration) that can be earned solo without doing any damage or defeating a critter, although some arc Merit rewards don't require many defeats.

[Frostbiter]

17 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Almost all of the in-game rewards(*1) are for dealing damage (and defeating) enemy critters. The game offers significantly better in-game rewards for DPS than it does for non-DPS. Choosing to play a low damage scale AT shouldn't deny a player the chance to defeat critters at an improved rate. I don't think damage scales needs to be raised for any AT, because %procs can help keep lower damage-scale ATs stay within an order-of-magnitude of rewards-per-unit-time of those higher damage-scale ATs, without forcing the low damage scale ATs to have to team up with higher damage scale ATs, for most content. Again: using %damage is a build choice, opting to team up is a play choice.

 

(*1) XP, Inf, defeat Merits, Enhancements, Salvage, Monstrous Aethers, Recipes, Catalysts, are all examples of rewards that come from defeating critters. The in-game rewards that are not (directly) tied to defeating critters are Brainstorms, Prismatics, "patrol" missions, "exploration", and Day Job rewards. I'm not aware of any merit reward (beyond Exploration) that can be earned solo without doing any damage or defeating a critter, although some arc Merit rewards don't require many defeats.

 

Again, why bother having ATs then? Why bother with AT scalars? You're not wanting to give up anything so let's just all be the same.

Edited April 13 by Frostbiter

[Haijinx]

Non damage dealers are non damage dealers because they contribute more in a team environment.

 

That's whe defefenders, controllers and tankers did less damage .. and Blasters did much more

 

While scrappers were the best for solo 

 

Just because the game is good and broken mechanically now, doesn't mean that was not the intent.

[Sanguinesun]

Recent changes to the council mobs that -100%- didnt need to be implemented but now make missions late game with them to where even a simple paper PI mission takes 40min to complete because the archons almost fully self heal 3+ times a fight and then rez all whilst hitting like and acting stronger than some AV's but found in clusters in missions, just have multiple teams that I've seen people exclaim how that isnt fun.  But someone felt it necessarily to mark their territory in change to the game and some comments on that in groups slogging through those missions were rather unflattering in very colorful ways...

 

Supporters of changes to procs fall in the same category; because some small group feels content needs to be increasingly harder and really is a veiled expression of elitism.

 

I think already for example those calling on proc changes and tieing justification for it with the end game content needing to be easier may not realize that the compelling evidence is that already that the majority of the player base do not play the more challenging end game content.  

 

If people want more challenging end game content, ----make--- more challenging end game content, just like hardmodes were done/implemented. Let the smaller segment that want to play that enjoy that.  I

 

There's no need to neuter the existing game play in any capacity for that. Again, I point to how its not popular for the majority to play because the majority arent interested in playing a challenging end game content precept and proc changes, just like councils, affect everyone and at stages that arent considered post 50/end game.

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tidge]

22 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

 

Again, why bother having ATs then? Why bother with AT scalars? You're not wanting to give up anything so let's just all be the same.

 

3 hours ago, tidge said:

As I wrote back on the first page: Choosing which powers to take, how many slots to invest in them, and then what to put in any slots is all part of an individual player's build choices. The current %proc implementation allows players to make different choices, with %damage offering low-damage-scale ATs a chance to complete missions at almost any setting within an order of magnitude of high-damage-scale ATs.

 

It's not about being the same, it is about having the choice to build characters, no matter the AT,  and being rewarded at a more approximately equal rate independent of AT.

 

The argument I don't want to make is that non damage dealers should get reward drops by just doing damage things (healing, buffing, debuffing) as opposed to doing damage, or by requiring them to team up.

 

16 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Non damage dealers are non damage dealers because they contribute more in a team environment.

 

It's not as if non-damage dealers should get more XP, inf and drops in a team up environment (that the high-damage-scalar ATs). That would be crazy to try to balance, and it is currently unnecessary for low-damage-scale ATs that can leverage %damage.

[KaizenSoze]

 Since, the topic has branched out into a general end game discussion.

 

Once, I got past a certain level of influence. I quit caring about it. I have not thought about optimizing inf per hour or damage per second in a while. Except when I help out with testing.

 

What I love and will always love is the mobile kinetic combat system. What I do not love is not being able to use a lot of powers, because in the end game the mobs die so quickly. This is not a problem restricted to just low damage ATs. I distinctly remember a RWZ contact team fighting Vanguard. My poor stalker could barely get 2/3 attacks before the spawn was destroyed. The poor thing spent all it's time trying to find the one mob that was not dead.

 

This is not fun. It doesn't feel powerful. It's boring.

[tidge]

7 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

 Since, the topic has branched out into a general end game discussion.

 

Once, I got past a certain level of influence. I quit caring about it. I have not thought about optimizing inf per hour or damage per second in a while. Except when I help out with testing.

 

What I love and will always love is the mobile kinetic combat system. What I do not love is not being able to use a lot of powers, because in the end game the mobs die so quickly. This is not a problem restricted to just low damage ATs. I distinctly remember a RWZ contact team fighting Vanguard. My poor stalker could barely get 2/3 attacks before the spawn was destroyed. The poor thing spent all it's time trying to find the one mob that was not dead.

 

This is not fun. It doesn't feel powerful. It's boring.

 

I don't disagree that 50+ play can be boring. This has nothing to do with players building characters with powers that include %damage.

 

As an aside that can speak adjacent to 50+ stalker experience: Is it any wonder that some players branch off from a speed-killing group? It isn't hard to find criticisms of that play choice, sometimes with demands that something be done about that.

[Yomo Kimyata]

If I had my druthers (and keep in mind that I am drutherless):

 

- something strikes me as askew that an optimum build for an attack is two 53 a/d HOs and four damage procs.

 

- however I adore effect and cc procs and would love to see more of them!

[Glacier Peak]

2 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

If I had my druthers (and keep in mind that I am drutherless):

 

- something strikes me as askew that an optimum build for an attack is two 53 a/d HOs and four damage procs.

 

- however I adore effect and cc procs and would love to see more of them!

I wasn't much in to build optimization for the last four years or so, but after trying out some new stuff and getting a better understanding of the powerset combo I have been using for the past four years, I found that it's pretty cool to have the 2 acc/dmg Dsync/HOs and 4 dmg procs.

 

 

I crank out a ton of damage, like the most I've ever dealt. It hasn't made the build any more fun that it was for the past four years, but it does feel like I'm getting the most out of the attack powers now. 

 

Have you tried the Soulbound Allegiance: Chance for Build Up in a pet? I had no idea it could proc 2-3 times! 

 

[KaizenSoze]

21 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I don't disagree that 50+ play can be boring. This has nothing to do with players building characters with powers that include %damage.

 

As an aside that can speak adjacent to 50+ stalker experience: Is it any wonder that some players branch off from a speed-killing group? It isn't hard to find criticisms of that play choice, sometimes with demands that something be done about that.

Players would not optimize so much for damage, if there were downsides to it. Due to Incarnates there are very little downsides.

 

I don't have have a problem with players off soloing, unless it's hurting the team. Examples would be Market Crashes where players run off to the next spawn leaving the lowbies to clean up the rez'ed bosses. PI radios where there are only 2-3 50+ and only is off soloing, leaving the others to protect the lowbies.

[Frostbiter]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

The argument I don't want to make is that non damage dealers should get reward drops by just doing damage things (healing, buffing, debuffing) as opposed to doing damage, or by requiring them to team up.

 

Why? That's pretty much the argument that you've been making this whole time, minus the pearl clutching. Why beat around the bush about it? It's valid. This isn't about procs for you, it's about how you expect to be rewarded by the systems in place no matter what choices you make. It's just not workable in game because you can't be rewarded with drops without defeating enemies. In solo play this is a problem for more group orientated ATs, one with few workable solutions that I can see. I'm not against procs per se, just crutches. We're all supers here. A players time in this game should be rewarding while soloing or grouped, independent of their AT choices. Time vs reward is certainly an issue for soloing with certain ATs.

 

 

 

Edited April 13 by Frostbiter

[Sanguinesun]

7 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Players would not optimize so much for damage, if there were downsides to it. Due to Incarnates there are very little downsides.

 

I don't have have a problem with players off soloing, unless it's hurting the team. Examples would be Market Crashes where players run off to the next spawn leaving the lowbies to clean up the rez'ed bosses. PI radios where there are only 2-3 50+ and only is off soloing, leaving the others to protect the lowbies.

 

Best way of nipping in the bud that run off like a WoW tank silliness, is being the healer and sticking with the team instead (in many albeit not all cases). 

 

A tank faceplanting a few times gets the hint usually and if they complaint, just tell telling them how you're trying to keep the -team- alive and good and not one specific individual taking needless risks while putting the rest of the team at risk. 😛

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Frostbiter said:

 

Again, why bother having ATs then? Why bother with AT scalars?

 

15 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

 

Why? That's pretty much the argument that you've been making this whole time, minus the pearl clutching.

 

It is clear you believe that, despite me actually making completely different arguments that folks with reading comprehension can assess for themselves. It appears you have jumped to some specific conclusion for some particular corner of the game and are ignoring what I have written.

 

I've repeatedly written that %procs allow for more variety in both build choices and play styles, and this is what I find appealing about the current Homecoming CoX. It is a defect in your reasoning that you equate this to me wanting all AT to have the same damage scalars.

[KaizenSoze]

32 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

Best way of nipping in the bud that run off like a WoW tank silliness, is being the healer and sticking with the team instead (in many albeit not all cases). 

 

A tank faceplanting a few times gets the hint usually and if they complaint, just tell telling them how you're trying to keep the -team- alive and good and not one specific individual taking needless risks while putting the rest of the team at risk. 😛

The problem that the tank/brute is question is has no risk. They are basically soloing the TF with us along to clean up the strays.

[Digirium]

The real question is how outraged will you be when the change to damage procs happens and will you rage quit?

 

I played live from the beginning to sunset saw the introduction of the AH and IOs then IO sets. After enhancement diversification and the lesson it imparted to players I think those developers never thought at the time that damage procs would be used the way they are now. They intended them to be used as part of a set for the bonus.

 

Homecoming have a pretty strong hate going on with farmers and repeatedly nerf their effectiveness. Farmers use the multiple damage proc method to clear farms faster. You can clearly see how this is going to play out - it is not "if" but "when" and how will multiple damage procs be made ineffective. In the last patch farmers were silently nerfed again nothing mentioned anywhere in patch notes however it still happened (up to 6% reduction in AE standard rewards XP/Inf for custom critters).

 

I imagine the way it will be done is that each power will be restricted to a damage proc only being able to execute 3 times per minute. For example one damage proc might execute up to 3 times in a minute, two damage procs one or the other will execute 3 times per minute, three damage procs may be each one gets to execute once a minute, etc. This will mean one damage proc in a power is peak effectiveness.

 

It could be worse, it could take the form of a character wide restriction - per minute three damage procs anywhere in any power might execute.

 

Please don't try to blame farmers for the nerf but try to enjoy it while it lasts then when it finally happens don't quit but adapt.

 

 

Edited April 14 by Digirium

[Marshal_General]

Is there a proc for rage quitting?

[KaizenSoze]

47 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

Is there a proc for rage quitting?

Yes, but it deletes you character.