It's always been this way - a tank's true role

[DarkRevelation]

8 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

"That's not baseline..."

I don't build for "baseline".
 

 

I'm pretty sure you advertised those sleight of hand numbers as Base Invincibility. Just to make sure let's run it back and see.

 

17 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Calling me "Mister" is well above my pay grade,,,,

 

As for "better than the usual best possible".

Base Invincibility.



 

As for "better than the usual best possible".

Base Invincibility.

 

Your words, not mine. 

 

8 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

"That's not baseline..."

I don't build for "baseline".

I may as well advertise "No IOs">

And with variable values in things like INVINCIBLE which depends on the number of enemies in range, it's always going to be variable.

In that case, please tell me how much damage zero enemies are doing to you.  When even ONE steps into range and softcaps you.

 

 

You advertised those inflated numbers as Base Invincibility.  They are not the base for invincibility. You can't hit those resists outside of Unstoppable without using cooldowns/incarnates/inflated numbers of mobs around you. For someone who is new and doesn't know any better they will take those numbers and run with it, and wonder why they can't hit those. You can post whatever numbers/mobs/incarnates/cooldowns you want, but you can't call what you posted Base Invincibility. It's not, and no matter how much you want to have 10+ mobs around you to boost your defense numbers all of the time, that is not reality either. Let's call it what it really is;  You didn't like what Spaghetti Betty said so you cooked the numbers to try to make a point on a forum board by showing cooldowns/incarnates/max mobs from your old Much Mo build and called it Base Invincibility. It ain't, and no matter how much you pontificate on the grandeur of being a God tank, you can't hit those numbers without using all of those tricks, at least not on Invuln.  The 'I may as well advertise "No IOs"' is nothing but hyperbole. It is just more of the over the top exaggerated bravado that no one is buying.

 

I'd be happy to debate why using the old softcap number of 45% that you referred to is not the standard you should be using anymore unless all you fight is lvl 50 minions. Just let me know. 

 

 

[Snarky]

36 minutes ago, DarkRevelation said:

 

I'm pretty sure you advertised those sleight of hand numbers as Base Invincibility. Just to make sure let's run it back and see.

 

As for "better than the usual best possible".

Base Invincibility.

 

Your words, not mine. 

 

 

 

You advertised those inflated numbers as Base Invincibility.  They are not the base for invincibility. You can't hit those resists outside of Unstoppable without using cooldowns/incarnates/inflated numbers of mobs around you. For someone who is new and doesn't know any better they will take those numbers and run with it, and wonder why they can't hit those. You can post whatever numbers/mobs/incarnates/cooldowns you want, but you can't call what you posted Base Invincibility. It's not, and no matter how much you want to have 10+ mobs around you to boost your defense numbers all of the time, that is not reality either. Let's call it what it really is;  You didn't like what Spaghetti Betty said so you cooked the numbers to try to make a point on a forum board by showing cooldowns/incarnates/max mobs from your old Much Mo build and called it Base Invincibility. It ain't, and no matter how much you pontificate on the grandeur of being a God tank, you can't hit those numbers without using all of those tricks, at least not on Invuln.  The 'I may as well advertise "No IOs"' is nothing but hyperbole. It is just more of the over the top exaggerated bravado that no one is buying.

 

I'd be happy to debate why using the old softcap number of 45% that you referred to is not the standard you should be using anymore unless all you fight is lvl 50 minions. Just let me know. 

 

 

And a stripped car is s “ base car” but that definition is very fluid based on model and car company

 

you really want “BASE” numbers with no enhancers comparison. Will take 2-5 min.  Open mids.  Make a new tank.  Pick every armor except T9. Turn those on. Do not enhance.  Look at totals.  Now, just change each armor set.  Look how totals change.  Change through all armors.  So, base invul is better than everything else.  
 

now if you want a lowest competent i/o investment (base, new definition) Invul will get better in every way.  And the more you build it ( supreme, w/sour cream) the better it gets.  Until you get to what i call Ultimo builds ( i think someone has one they call modurable ) Invul just outshines all rivals.  
 

now i main a Dark/Dark tank. All of Dark is horrid unenhanced (stripped base) and little better lowest competent I/O build (base).  But when enhanced correctly ( and expensively) it is very nice.  Not base

Edited May 17 by Snarky

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, DarkRevelation said:

Base Invincibility

 

I took that to read "without any foes within Invincibility range which would otherwise inflate the numbers"

To be fair, Hyperstrike has produced a very wide range of INV builds and the "Mo Durable" INV/SS Tanker build series seems to be buried under forum detritus - the only up-to-date copy I was able to find with a cursory search was Snarky's repost here

However with zero foes in Invincibility range ("Base Invincibility" but not "Unslotted Invincibility") and no clicky res buffs running, we get this:


With either "Melee Core Embodiment" Hybrid Incarnate or "Rune of Protection" running it pushes it to Hardcapped resistance to all but Toxic.
With 1+ foe in Invincibility Range it pushes Defence into the 50s; and Incarnate Softcap for F/C is finally achieved at ~8-9 foes.

This build is obviously very durable (hence the name!) but it's also a bit of a "brick" in that it sacrifices damage output and utility for high +Def/+Res numbers.

For contrast, here's another example from my own stable; another INV/SS Tanker, again with zero foes in Invincibility range:


zTanker - INV_SS (CrossPunch).mbd

Vastly lower defence/resistance values than the "Mo Durable" build.
But much better global recharge and damage output and utility.

And with one foe in Invincibility range it hits the regular 45% softcap; achieving Incarnate softcap with 9-10 foes. And if you toggle on Melee Core and are surrounded by enemies it can also technically hit hardcapped resistances to all but Toxic (it's a few percent under the E/N/F/C caps if at max HP unless it has 2+ SMoT proc stacks)
Even just the inclusion of the FF Proc in Footstomp goes a long way; since the regular KD is helpful and the additional recharge actually affects other forms of survivability as well. Slotted Dull Pain in the second build is sub-90s recharge resulting in big heal and a permanent Maximum HP pool of 3534+1801 Absorb... compared to the first build's ~200s Unslotted Dull Pain with a much smaller heal and Maximum HP sitting unbuffed for ~80s at a time... and only 3223 HP+866 Absorb whenever it's actually up).

There is a sliding scale with Extreme Survivability at one end and Extreme DPS on the other. Especially when exemplaring.
Some like to go for extremes of particular numbers.
Personally (like most?) I like to park my builds somewhere in the middle and have layered mitigation whenever possible.
 

Edited May 17 by Maelwys

[Infinitum]

25 minutes ago, Snarky said:

And a stripped car is s “ base car” but that definition is very fluid based on model and car company

 

you really want “BASE” numbers with no enhancers comparison. Will take 2-5 min.  Open mids.  Make a new tank.  Pick every armor except T9. Turn those on. Do not enhance.  Look at totals.  Now, just change each armor set.  Look how totals change.  Change through all armors.  So, base invul is better than everything else.  
 

now if you want a lowest competent i/o investment (base, new definition) Invul will get better in every way.  And the more you build it ( supreme, w/sour cream) the better it gets.  Until you get to what i call Ultimo builds ( i think someone has one they call modurable ) Invul just outshines all rivals.  
 

now i main a Dark/Dark tank. All of Dark is horrid unenhanced (stripped base) and little better lowest competent I/O build (base).  But when enhanced correctly ( and expensively) it is very nice.  Not base

 

That still isn't what was said or advertised.  You can not in any way outside of melee core or rune hit resistance numbers like HS advertised on those screenshots - invul just can't do that - nor should it.  It doesn't really need to. 

 

Secondly - invul isn't even close to being the best armor unenhanced - that would probably fall to SR - you can easily softcap with minimal investment - not sets - plus you have the sliding scale resistances that get stronger the lower your HP gets.

 

You also have to take into account the DDR - invul doesn't cap this - leaving a hole a lot larger for enemy to cascade your defenses. That reason alone is why Shield and SR rank higher than Invul - their defenses don't collapse nearly as fast - and when they do - don't collapse as far negative on the base defense value in the power statistics in game. 

 

Dull Pain is the only advantage Invul has over Shield or SR - but IMO not big enough to rank invul higher - because Shield or SR do not need it anyway. 

 

I can back all this up in game if need be also.  I have ran tests on the collapse point under extreme ddr preasure for each armor set. 

 

Also none of this is to say Invul is bad - it's #3 IMO.  And top 5 usually in most people's assessments. 

[Maelwys]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Dull Pain is the only advantage Invul has over Shield or SR - but IMO not big enough to rank invul higher - because Shield or SR do not need it anyway. 

Technically there's the +ToHit from Invincibility and a bit of fluff like repel protection etc. too... but aye, it's mostly all a bit meh and ignorable.

It probably says something that whenever I compare INV to another defensive powerset with mostly-like-for-like primary slotting, it tends to be stuff like Willpower rather than Shield or SR.
At least INV gets a smidge more Defence Debuff Resistance without Ageless than WP does; and >100 HP/Sec with 1 foe in RTTC range isn't as OP as it used to be!

[Sovera]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

I believe more is being said about the appearance of your res being capped across the board.  That is an illusion because it isn't perma - and you shouldn't advertise that as your baseline because there is no way it can be with invul.

 

Baseline in my opinion is static numbers 24/7 - which could apply to invincibility being saturated - because 10 ain't killing ya and as long as you don't kill them. It's static. lol

 

I get it and most longtime players will get it but newer players won't understand you likely have rune or melee core toggled on.   Now if you advertise it as baseline with melee core etc then - fair play. 

 

*looks at all their Tanker builds at 70% being advertised as '90% across the board'*

 

Y-yeah!

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, DarkRevelation said:

They are not the base for invincibility. You can't hit those resists outside of Unstoppable

Which is going to be EXTRA SPECIAL TOUGH.

Why?

NONE OF THESE BUILDS USE UNSTOPPABLE,  It's not even a chosen power!

Here's Mo version 4, built for Psi.

Mo Durable 4 Psi - Tanker (Invulnerability).mxd

Turn off Rune

Mo Durable 4 Psi - Tanker (Invulnerability).mxds.

 

THEN come back and tell me I "fudged" numbers".



And Maelwys, I've previously outlined the shortcomings of Mo.  The default Hyoerstrike build, is geared towards grabbing at least SOME global Recharge via LOTG, still being "tough enough" while being faster to a kill.



Not saying ANY of these builds are "end-all-be-all".  If you heard THAT anyplace, you didn't hear it from ME!  (So who's lying to you?)

My goal in presenting them and justifying my choices is to open up OPTIONS to players.

Edited May 17 by Hyperstrike

[Infinitum]

29 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Which is going to be EXTRA SPECIAL TOUGH.

Why?

NONE OF THESE BUILDS USE UNSTOPPABLE,  It's not even a chosen power!

Here's Mo version 4, built for Psi.

Mo Durable 4 Psi - Tanker (Invulnerability).mxd

Turn off Rune

Mo Durable 4 Psi - Tanker (Invulnerability).mxds.

 

THEN come back and tell me I "fudged" numbers".



And Maelwys, I've previously outlined the shortcomings of Mo.  The default Hyoerstrike build, is geared towards grabbing at least SOME global Recharge via LOTG, still being "tough enough" while being faster to a kill.



Not saying ANY of these builds are "end-all-be-all".  If you heard THAT anyplace, you didn't hear it from ME!  (So who's lying to you?)

My goal in presenting them and justifying my choices is to open up OPTIONS to players.

 

Melee core is on in that screenshot above.  once you turn off melee core and rune - that's what your build base is at that point.  Both are basically versions of unstoppable without the crash. 

 

Otherwise there's no way invul is hitting those resist numbers. 

 

You aren't fudging the numbers. You just aren't spelling out where they came from in full disclosure that they aren't based off a static 24/7 capability that doesn't end up with cooldowns.

 

No amount of caps lock and font size will make any of that less true.

[Maelwys]

42 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Melee core is on in that screenshot above.  

 

You aren't fudging the numbers. You just aren't spelling out where they came from in full disclosure that they aren't based off a static 24/7 capability that doesn't end up with cooldowns.

 

In addition to the above, whilst it was once-upon-a-time possible to chain Rune of Protection and Melee Core Embodiment back to back constantly, that is no longer the case. Currently no matter how you try to stagger them you're going to end up with a very noticeable 30-60 second gap.

 

Whilst in practice that's typically nothing worth worrying about, it does add considerable weight to the argument that most builds can't feasibly claim a permanent/baseline/insertwhateveradjectiveyoulikehere level of performance if they have either of those clicks enabled. Some reasonably-crashless defensive T9s can be used to cover that gap; but Unstoppable isn't one of them.

 

I 100% appreciate the work that's gone into making these sort of builds and having them as options or reference points is valuable. But there is such a thing as false advertising, or at the very least "a salesperson stating that a car can do >1000 MPG without mentioning the bit about always driving downhill". Particularly in threads like this one you really can't assume that all of the readers are going to understand all of the conditional caveats.

 

Edited May 17 by Maelwys

[Aeroprism]

I haven't read each and every post of this topic (a serious crime, I know), but my take on this is that there is no need for all tanks to be one and the same.

 

I have a Rad/Claw tank that is a damage powerhouse. Good with teams and can solo pretty much anything I tried so far.

 

I have an Ice/Ice tank that feels like a controller-tank. The damage is not as explosive but it is nice. Hardly ever seen it faceplant.

 

I have a few more but they're not fully grown yet so I can't really comment. I have yet to create a Tanky-tank but as it was mentioned above, Invul and Stone fit the bill quite nicely.

 

Tanks are versatile and when well built, they can be quite hard to put down.

[Zect]

Re: the thread title, I do not see the "true role" of anything as being very relevant. Things can be designed with developer-intended strengths and weaknesses, however, finding ways to subvert these and develop toons in unexpected directions is part of the fun of games like coh. Ultimately, what matters are the results as opposed to anyone's preconceptions of what something should play like.

 

P.S. I'm very pleased to see more people rightfully calling out forumites on inflated numbers in mids and unrealistic build claims. Keep up the good job!

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

Melee core is on in that screenshot above.  once you turn off melee core and rune - that's what your build base is at that point.  Both are basically versions of unstoppable without the crash. 

 

Otherwise there's no way invul is hitting those resist numbers. 

 

You aren't fudging the numbers. You just aren't spelling out where they came from in full disclosure that they aren't based off a static 24/7 capability that doesn't end up with cooldowns.

 

No amount of caps lock and font size will make any of that less true.

Damn, I'm a dumbass,.

Melee core disabled.

Okay, I'm an idiot.  😃 

Corrected:

Better? 

Edited May 17 by Hyperstrike

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Zect said:

 

P.S. I'm very pleased to see more people rightfully calling out forumites on inflated numbers in mids and unrealistic build claims. Keep up the good job!

 

It wasn't inflated numbers or an unrealistic build claim - numbers were legit - with melee core which isn't perma. 

 

As long as that is mentioned - I have no issues with it.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

Damn, I'm a dumbass,.

Melee core disabled.

Okay, I'm an idiot.

Nah. Probably just Olding like me. lol

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

That still isn't what was said or advertised.  You can not in any way outside of melee core or rune hit resistance numbers like HS advertised on those screenshots - invul just can't do that - nor should it.  It doesn't really need to. 

 

Secondly - invul isn't even close to being the best armor unenhanced - that would probably fall to SR - you can easily softcap with minimal investment - not sets - plus you have the sliding scale resistances that get stronger the lower your HP gets.

 

You also have to take into account the DDR - invul doesn't cap this - leaving a hole a lot larger for enemy to cascade your defenses. That reason alone is why Shield and SR rank higher than Invul - their defenses don't collapse nearly as fast - and when they do - don't collapse as far negative on the base defense value in the power statistics in game. 

 

Dull Pain is the only advantage Invul has over Shield or SR - but IMO not big enough to rank invul higher - because Shield or SR do not need it anyway. 

 

I can back all this up in game if need be also.  I have ran tests on the collapse point under extreme ddr preasure for each armor set. 

 

Also none of this is to say Invul is bad - it's #3 IMO.  And top 5 usually in most people's assessments. 

Invul is a hybrid armor.  Using Def and Res.  

 

Defense armors are great.  Until they are not.  But everyone pretends that never happens.  Enjoy.

 

I use Dark.  Specifically, Dark Dark Soul.  I have near perfect Res and  Faux defense (no DDR necessary) of to hit debuff, non suppressing stealth, fear, and stun.  

 

For times when I have to work I have both Melee Core Embodiment and Rune of Protection.  plus... we all carry inspirations 🙂 

 

 

[DarkRevelation]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

Better? 

Yes, but either take out the 10 mobs in Invincibility or just state that that is what it is mob capped. Either works and is transparent. If you are going to call something base, then make it be base. I doubt most folk know that the mob amount can manipulated in MIDS for some power choices/incarnates, or what mob capped even means in its relation to Invuln. No one is saying that your Invuln build isn't very durable, that it can't hit those defense numbers with Invul alone, or that Invul isn't a good choice. Just spell it out with full disclosure where the numbers are coming from. People will look at these posts for years to come trying to figure out the game and how best to do roll a tank. Not everyone has the experience to know how you are getting those numbers. That's what this board is for; to provide a place to discuss ideas/builds/issues and to help folk by passing along knowledge gained from your experience. Put yourself back in 2008 HyperStrike mode when you were learning the game and reread your post. You see base invincibility and think it is what it says it is, not understanding cooldown rotations/incarnate usage and when to use your Hybrid/Destiny for maximum gain/mobs related to defense numbers/power pool cooldowns/recharge rates/regen rate compared to HP and how to manipulate that via DP, and when to manipulate that/LoS mitigations and utilizing them to boost your defense numbers by drawing in ranged mobs/etc, etc, etc.  There is a lot to learn to understand the numbers you posted. Help new folk out and let them know where you get those numbers from.  

[DarkRevelation]

8 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

I can back all this up in game if need be also.  I have ran tests on the collapse point under extreme ddr preasure for each armor set. 

 

 

I would love to take you up on that one day. Maybe on the test server? I want to see what the defense armors do under heavy DDR pressure and how they mitigate that. That would be a lot of fun and a good chance to learn some things. I tested flooring the defense numbers on a granite build to look at mitigation via res/regen, and picked up a few ideas. If you ever want to hit up the test server let me know. It would be a good place to look at other builds without having to swap servers.

 

 

Edited May 17 by DarkRevelation
replied too soon

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Nah. Probably just Olding like me. lol

Inanashnashabadappressure!

Uh.  WHUT?

[Infinitum]

55 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Invul is a hybrid armor.  Using Def and Res.  

 

Defense armors are great.  Until they are not.  But everyone pretends that never happens.  Enjoy.

 

You do know Shield and SR are hybrid also right?   They both utilize defense and res also. 

 

In more ways than one - better than invul

1. Shield is capable of reaching better defenses than invul that has no saturation limitation like invinc has. 

2.Shield has resistances very similar to invul. 

3.SR has far superior defenses than invul 

4.SR has a great sliding res based on HP level that can see very high Res numbers also. 

5.Both Shield and SR have far superior DDR than invul which means their defense will not break as often and then not as bad when it does break as invul will. 

 

The above is the simplest way to reach the logical conclusion why they are ever so slightly better than invul. 

[Sovera]

And Stone. 55% defense, 81% (if we consider two stacks of the ATO as perma) to all except psi, but psi has 56% defense and doesn't DDR. And HP almost capped... I mean, the cap is 3554 and the build has 3553, so it's not capped.

 

At that point we can argue for resistance armors... for the 9% more that they bring to the table 😄 I could change Musculature to Resilient and be at 85%-ish. Or even Cardiac though the endurance is handled.

 

The only 'downside' is the lack of a heal. It has to survive on 63 HP regen.

 

Edited May 17 by Sovera

[Hyperstrike]

5 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

You do know Shield and SR are hybrid also right?   They both utilize defense and res also. 

 

In more ways than one - better than invul

1. Shield is capable of reaching better defenses than invul that has no saturation limitation like invinc has. 

2.Shield has resistances very similar to invul. 

3.SR has far superior defenses than invul 

4.SR has a great sliding res based on HP level that can see very high Res numbers also. 

5.Both Shield and SR have far superior DDR than invul which means their defense will not break as often and then not as bad when it does break as invul will. 

 

The above is the simplest way to reach the logical conclusion why they are ever so slightly better than invul. 

On this we're gonna need to disagree.

Because once you hit soft-cap or Incarnate soft-cap (depending on situation), going "OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAND?????" delivers essentially BUPKISS in value.

Delivering 60+% Defense or 90+% Resisitance is essentially wasted.

Now, a caveat, simply winding up with this as part of the build process is still wasteful.  But it's kinda par for the course with other build constraints.

Not really talking about incidental "slop" in a build.

HOWEVER...

Deliberately trying to design for 120% Resist or 90% defense is like bringing a Lamborghini, nitrous charging it and jacking it up on Monster Truck tires and throwing rock rails on.  In short, you waste a lot of money on "performance gear".  When it ultimately leaves all that performance, filling in the hole in your wallet.

This is why I'm leery about declaring anything "far superior".

Because, these days, we have VERY rarefied specialists who've been tweaking on this stuff for the better part of TWO DECADES now.

Edited May 17 by Hyperstrike

[Spaghetti Betty]

8 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Delivering 60+% Defense or 90+% Resisitance is essentially wasted.

...But that's what you're doing in your builds and suffering in a ton of other areas to do so. 🤦‍♂️

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

On this we're gonna need to disagree.

Because once you hit soft-cap or Incarnate soft-cap (depending on situation), going "OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAND?????" delivers essentially BUPKISS in value.

Delivering 60+% Defense or 90+% Resisitance is essentially wasted.

Now, a caveat, simply winding up with this as part of the build process is still wasteful.  But it's kinda par for the course with other build constraints.

Deliberately trying to design for 120% Resist or 90% defense is like bringing a Lamborghini, nitrous charging it and jacking it up on Monster Truck tires and throwing rock rails on.  In short, you waste a lot of money on "performance gear".  When it ultimately leaves all that performance, filling in the hole in your wallet.

 

 

Nope completely incorrect here.

 

Go start an ITF +4/8 - open the power monitor and watch your base defense - then get back to me on anything over the softcap/incarnate softcap not mattering - its why barrier is such a popular option for hard-modes.

 

The lower your vectored defenses are at the initial engagement - the more the initial hits to your base defense will lower them - it will cascade much faster.

 

They may not offer much initial value - but the more there is to drop the less chance they will drop to a critical point (like wearing layers in harsh winter conditions) - for instance - if your defenses are at 70% and you get dinged for 10 percent - you are still at 60% right at the incarnate softcap.  If you are at 55% and get dinged for 10% - my friend you are now sitting at 45% and actually lower if it is incarnate content because of the increased +tohit of 14% - so that in essence puts you at 31% and experiencing a cascade that your resistances can't overcome at that point.

 

Like I said earlier - I have tested all of this - I could demonstrate any of this.

 

I have found 65-70 is a good spot for anything not Hard Mode the game can throw at it - Shield and SR strictly speaking also.

 

Edit - well you can get by with less than that - 65-70 is like worst case scenario type of stuff - most of my shield tankers don't run op to 65 and in some cases 60 either and they do just fine - 65-70 is if you don't want to see any drastic fluctuations in your HP Bar.

Edited May 17 by Infinitum

[Erratic1]

6 hours ago, Infinitum said:

You do know Shield and SR are hybrid also right?   They both utilize defense and res also. 

 

While they have resistance, they do not go far with them, unlike say the case with Invulnerability and defense. Or at least, I have no recollection of seeing Shield or SR wandering around with capped resistances unlike say Invulnerability and defenses.

[Spaghetti Betty]

7 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

While they have resistance, they do not go far with them, unlike say the case with Invulnerability and defense. Or at least, I have no recollection of seeing Shield or SR wandering around with capped resistances unlike say Invulnerability and defenses.

Technically they can. Technically any DEF armor can run around with capped or near-capped resists when active clicks are considered. SR can just do it on it's own by losing a bit of HP.

 

A Tank only needs to build about 55% RES before RoP/Melee/Barrier cycles and a couple applications of MotT puts them at 90%. This is how I run my Ice/EM.