How do we fail new players?

[Seed22]

14 hours ago, Neiska said:

so maybe the Farmers need more of a presence here on the forums perhaps, so it doesn't look so one sided.

No need, really. The farmers all know the nerfs to AE are the last that’ll come because they actually talk to the devs(I’m one of them that does) 

 

They’re not nerfing it further, so the farming BAD crowd are simply screaming at clouds. Why would farmers waste their time arguing with these people? The nerfs are done, and AE farming is at it will be for the forseeable future. 
 

 

[tidge]

17 hours ago, Neiska said:

PS - I am unsure it has been discussed or asked before, but I do wonder if its possible to separate the different shards by p2w/start and AE stuff. As in -

Shard 1 - No p2w or AE

Shard 2 - p2w, but no AE

Shard 3 - no p2w, but AE

Shard 4 - p2w and AE

 

That way everyone can have their pick. The purists can have their playground, others can have theirs, and so on. I am not sure if this is even possible, or if the HC staff would consider such a thing. But it's at least a thought and an effort for a compromise. Everyone could have their own game environment of choice and stop the bickering on the farming/AE topic already.

 

I'm sparing you a thumbs down reaction for this post, but this suggestion makes zero sense. Why do I write this? How would an "uninformed player" know what any of that means? Why would we want shards explicitly set up that have different things, that players can choose to ignore anyway?

 

[Sovera]

There's no point in saying 'farmers bad'. The players themselves are bad to themselves.

 

I finally coaxed a friend to play the game and they loved it. We went around, they did a few alts, we'd duo stuff. All good fun. Then they discovered farming and the split second that they did they no longer wanted to play with me and would just sit in the farming simulator to get fat XP and money. Then they made a second account to farm for their other characters.

 

Now they no longer play.

[skoryy]

19 minutes ago, Sovera said:

There's no point in saying 'farmers bad'. The players themselves are bad to themselves.

 

I finally coaxed a friend to play the game and they loved it. We went around, they did a few alts, we'd duo stuff. All good fun. Then they discovered farming and the split second that they did they no longer wanted to play with me and would just sit in the farming simulator to get fat XP and money. Then they made a second account to farm for their other characters.

 

Now they no longer play.

They got bored of traditional leveling, then ran out of alt ideas.  That's not an 'us' problem, they don't like what CoH offers.  And that's okay.

[Triumphant]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

I'm sparing you a thumbs down reaction for this post, but this suggestion makes zero sense. Why do I write this? How would an "uninformed player" know what any of that means? Why would we want shards explicitly set up that have different things, that players can choose to ignore anyway?

 

 

First of all, thanks for offering some context for why you would give it a thumbs down, instead of just giving it a thumbs down.  Cause I really hate when people do that.  It adds nothing useful to the conversation.

 

But, to address your own question, the reason is so that people that think the game is most readily enjoyed a certain way can have access a pool of players that share their preferred play style.  It would make for a more enjoyable play experience for players with those preferences, particularly regarding PUGs.

 

As to how would make an new or "uniformed" player understand the differences?  That is a more difficult problem to address and certainly worth considering, I agree.

[skoryy]

19 hours ago, Greycat said:

I'm getting some of what you're saying on "A vet is making the choice for them," but ... I only sort of half agree on that, and I still hold that the new player doesn't *know* what the choices really are (and they're kind of who we're concentrating on here.) If a vet says "You're new, get in the farm and get to 50" (essentially, doubt they're using the exact words,) well, that kind of fits perceptions from other games - and that is making the choice for them.

 

But they still don't *know* that COH doesn't "begin at endgame" like so many other games. They aren't being given that information. They've got contacts - hey, that guy over there has a coin over their head - though they're a good jog from the starting area, blueside, it's easy to miss Habashy, and you don't see the old origin contacts since they're in the lower level of City Hall. That information is not immediately obvious.

 

Honestly, as someone who makes new alts, the new character experience kind of sucks, since you have a ton of "just frigging click to get this out of my way" windows thrown at you, and that *really* needs to be streamlined.

 

Next bit, I think you focused way too much on the term "AE babies." It doesn't matter the level that someone new gets PL'd to - and I also didn't say that the majority of people in farms are new players. Hell, *I* get farmed - but then again, I'm also doing it with knowledge that, for instance, I *hate* playing a VEAT to 24 just to essentially be told "Everything you've done to now doesn't matter, you MUST RESPEC NOW." (just on top of the annoyance of having to take the time right then to do it. You can't pick another power, you must respec before you do anything else.) I just get PL'd into the mid-20s, do the respec, and *then* consider my character to be starting out.

 

Also, it's not just "not knowing something," it's the very obvious "not knowing pretty much ANYTHING other than what the inside of a farm looks like."

 

Last, I'm not sure where you're seeing me advocating removing an option of any sort, so... I'm not anti-farming. I'll do it myself on occasion. I'm more anti-uninformedness... I suppose.

 

(Shortening the reply because the conversation's sparked a suggestion idea, so...)

Yeah, this thread inspired me to finally getting to writing a blapper guide.

 

(Don't hold me to it.)

[Triumphant]

3 minutes ago, skoryy said:

They got bored of traditional leveling, then ran out of alt ideas.  That's not an 'us' problem, they don't like what CoH offers.  And that's okay.

That also would be my view of this particular anecdote.

[tidge]

7 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

But, to address your own question, the reason is so that people that think the game is most readily enjoyed a certain way can have access a pool of players that share their preferred play style.  It would make for a more enjoyable play experience for players with those preferences, particularly regarding PUGs.

 

I have trouble imagining players that would willingly give up on P2W/S.T.A.R.T. For one thing, it's where we buy everything from prestige travel powers to turning off certain drops. Please don't waste any more effort trying to workshop that idea.

[Ghost]

3 hours ago, Seed22 said:

No need, really. The farmers all know the nerfs to AE are the last that’ll come because they actually talk to the devs(I’m one of them that does) 

 

They’re not nerfing it further, so the farming BAD crowd are simply screaming at clouds. Why would farmers waste their time arguing with these people? The nerfs are done, and AE farming is at it will be for the forseeable future. 
 

 

[Triumphant]

6 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I have trouble imagining players that would willingly give up on P2W/S.T.A.R.T. For one thing, it's where we buy everything from prestige travel powers to turning off certain drops. Please don't waste any more effort trying to workshop that idea.

I tend to somewhat agree with you actually (certainly, I personally would NOT want to give up the P2W vendor).  But having a separate server where people who don't like those things could go to find like-minded players, does not strike me as a particularly bad thing (though, of course, something bad might come of it that I'm unable to anticipate.  That is true with any new thing that one introduces to the game, though). 

 

But If it could be made an option, I see no reason to object to it.  If you don't want to play on such a server (I don't think that I would like it, but I'd probably take for a test drive once, just to be sure), just play on one of the others.

[Ghost]

Would you really need another server to play a certain way?

 

If there’s enough like minded individuals, they could meet up and run the content however they want - no P2W temps.  No incarnates.  However they choose.  
They could even start their own SG with the express purpose of only running certain ways.

 

Seems much easier than a new server, IMO

 

[Ukase]

25 minutes ago, Ghost said:

If there’s enough like minded individuals

I have run a few of these kinds of teams, where we avoid all things from p2w/START vendor that cost influence. If it's free, go ahead, but nothing you pay for, and no 2xp buff. 
You do enough of these, it becomes the new normal and you don't really miss the faster xp rate. At least, I didn't. 

Definitely no need to split things up; we can choose to avoid it if we want to. 

 

[Neiska]

5 hours ago, tidge said:

 

I'm sparing you a thumbs down reaction for this post, but this suggestion makes zero sense. Why do I write this? How would an "uninformed player" know what any of that means? Why would we want shards explicitly set up that have different things, that players can choose to ignore anyway?

 

 

Because I was mostly wondering if it was possible? I replied to someone else that I don't expect such a thing to actually come to pass or be a viable solution. 

[battlewraith]

15 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Because I was mostly wondering if it was possible? I replied to someone else that I don't expect such a thing to actually come to pass or be a viable solution. 

Looks like you did not get spared a second time, lol.

[Neiska]

@tidge And a thumbs down for going "hmm I wonder if this is possible in the game/script mechanics? Really? Added as an afterthought to another post no less?

 

Good thing thumbs down or any of the emjojis dont actually mean anything.

[Neiska]

7 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Looks like you did not get spared a second time, lol.

 

Spared from what? Some random stranger's expression of displeasure? I see that about every 3 mins in the general channel. No sweat off my back. I am mostly amused about the context, i added that as an afterthought, mostly wondering if such a thing was possible in the game scripts and the like. Apparently it is, but not without having multiple different servers and the like. I thought it might have been a case of removing npcs or turning off the interaction script. I'm not actually very script-savy on those kinds of things, hence my musing about it. But as others pointed out, further dividing the community is a bad idea, which I agree with. 

 

Still, THUMBS DOWN FOR WONDERING I find amusing. 

Edited June 8 by Neiska

[tidge]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Looks like you did not get spared a second time, lol.

 

It's the doubling down, with no introspection, and a hint of "I'm just saying..." that I felt warranted it. Advocating for segregation into "Like Minded" groups  sealed the deal.

[Lunar Ronin]

5 hours ago, Ghost said:

Would you really need another server to play a certain way?

 

If there’s enough like minded individuals, they could meet up and run the content however they want - no P2W temps.  No incarnates.  However they choose.  
They could even start their own SG with the express purpose of only running certain ways.

 

Seems much easier than a new server, IMO

 

 

Seeing as multiple servers have started up to play particular ways, yes.

 

I find the "find your own particular group to play your own way" argument a bit fallacious, when something is as pervasive in the game's culture as P2W temps or Incarnates, or the old base macro.  When something is that pervasive, the only way to avoid it is to either start another server, or play something else entirely.

[Neiska]

43 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

It's the doubling down, with no introspection, and a hint of "I'm just saying..." that I felt warranted it. Advocating for segregation into "Like Minded" groups  sealed the deal.

 

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said "i'm just saying." I added it as a PS to another topic. Another pointed out that would segregate the community (more than it already is) and I even agreed with them. "Doubling down?" On what, asking a technical question? 

 

Forums: "Level 50s ask questions! They are newbie AE babies!"

Also Forums: "They asked a technical question! BOO THIS PERSON!"

Also also Forums: "You aren't allowed to play by yourself, or your way. The only acceptable way to play, is MY way, WITH me. If you dont like it, this game isn't for you!"

 

Starting to see a pattern here, and it isn't the farmers or new people that is the problem.

[tidge]

22 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said "i'm just saying." I added it as a PS to another topic. Another pointed out that would segregate the community (more than it already is) and I even agreed with them.

 

On 6/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, Neiska said:

PS - I am unsure it has been discussed or asked before, but I do wonder if its possible to separate the different shards by p2w/start and AE stuff. As in -

Shard 1 - No p2w or AE

Shard 2 - p2w, but no AE

Shard 3 - no p2w, but AE

Shard 4 - p2w and AE

 

That way everyone can have their pick. The purists can have their playground, others can have theirs, and so on.

 

2 hours ago, Neiska said:

 i added that as an afterthought, mostly wondering if such a thing was possible in the game scripts and the like.

 

It was a bad idea, and rather than recognize it was a bad idea it is now necessary to have a debate about conversation.

 

There is no fundamental way that players having access to START or AE has a noticeable effect on other players I can think of, with only one exceptions

1. Because reward drops from AE mirror rewards from the non-AE part of the game, and players can create their own AE, it is possible for the in-game economy to go to dark places.

I suppose it is hypothetically possible that if there exists a player that is actively shunned because START makes that specific player "useless" (because of START attacks, debuffs, heals, travel options, whatever) then START (or P2W as it was referred to) could be causing some sort of community problem... but that strikes me as an incredible stretch.

 

I think there is also some confusion about AE... there is more to AE than "farming". AE is used by many players as a creative outlet. It is repeatedly been stated that players will seek content that gives rewards indistinguishable from (what I think is being referred to as) "AE Farming".

[Neiska]

4 minutes ago, tidge said:

It was a bad idea, and rather than recognize it was a bad idea it is now necessary to have a debate about conversation.

 

It wasn't an idea, it was a technical question about what is or isn't possible. Not if it is valid or a plausible solution. If you had taken the time to read the full replies others have also made, you might have realized that. And rather than consider that, you extrapolate and put words into my mouth. So, with respect, you can take a hike and take your judgmental opinion with you. 🖕

[tidge]

If it was a "technical question", why was it proposed so that everyone can have their pick", with a focus on "p2w" and "AE"?  If someone wants to participate in a conversation, it is somewhat important that they take ownership of their part of it.

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

Seeing as multiple servers have started up to play particular ways, yes.

 

I find the "find your own particular group to play your own way" argument a bit fallacious, when something is as pervasive in the game's culture as P2W temps or Incarnates, or the old base macro.  When something is that pervasive, the only way to avoid it is to either start another server, or play something else entirely.

That just doesn’t make sense to me.

Capping res and soft capping def is not that difficult on most, if not all toons.

I don’t want to play that way.  My squishies are squishy.  My defenders will die in a heartbeat if I do something stupid.  My blasters wait for tanks to grab aggro.  Why? Because that how I want to play.

 

So if players want to play without temps or incarnates, they can.  They just have to make the decision to do it and follow through.

 

At least that’s my opinion.

Edited June 9 by Ghost

[Neiska]

23 minutes ago, tidge said:

If it was a "technical question", why was it proposed so that everyone can have their pick", with a focus on "p2w" and "AE"?  If someone wants to participate in a conversation, it is somewhat important that they take ownership of their part of it.

 

Good god. It was a question if it was possible to do via scripting/game mechanics. Not an actual suggestion. Even if it was, I doubt the staff would do so anyway, and I even pointed out such.

 

Here, I'll simplify it for you -

 

"Is it possible in the old game engine with spaghetti script? Not a suggestion, not an idea, not a solution, only asking if such a thing is even do-able?"

 

If someone wants to partcipate in a conversation, its somewhat important to actually read and comprehend what the other person says, and not attempt to change their statement to avoid having to admit they were wrong. I would have more respect for you if you admit that you read my PS and had a knee jerk reaction. But its you who are doubling down here. (your words, not mine.)

 

But I think I am just going to do us both a favor and put you on the ignore list. Since you like to obfuscate, even when something is repeated to you, then I don't think there is much we have to say to one another, so I am going to just save us both the trouble. 

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

 

It's the doubling down, with no introspection, and a hint of "I'm just saying..." that I felt warranted it. Advocating for segregation into "Like Minded" groups  sealed the deal.

Yeah the rationale behind it doesn't matter. I don't care about downvotes in a discussion. So to hear someone say "I spared you" a downvote, like it's the scarlet letter or something, is just funny.

 

Also, 

 

HAIL SATAN!