yOu ShOuLD cHaNGe kNoCkBAck to KnoCKdoWN!

[Forager]

23 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I run with a group (Justice Superteamers Excelsior) and one of their weekly projects is "Huddle and Hurt"  The theme is to "Fold Space" all foes into our group and AoE.  Last night we did a posi 1&2, obviously we did not have those "later" powers as we were exemplared.  So the two Tanks pulled rooms to the group.  I bring this up because it is a popular, and VERY efficient, way to get through content.  Especially kill alls.  

 

Knockback.  Say it with me.... Knockback works completely against efficient AoE killing.  Repeat that A) 100 times B) Until you understand it.  

 

Now, Knockback CAN be useful.  You have control over enemies (ones that lack KB prot anyways...)  Control over enemies is good.  But control takes...control.  You need to be using the KB to "play pool" with the enemies.  You need to know where they will end up BEFORE you fire the attack.  Is that where you want them?  Does it make it easier?  Could they go through a wall and F.. the mission?  It is a very useful power when used correctly.  But then you have a power that is situational and requires set up.  Slower.  

 

Play how you want.  Heck, you can Energy Blast Knockback crazy one of my Task Forces anytime you want.  The forum loves stories about the crazy teams I run with.  But if you want to be liked by your teammates?  Learn how to use Knockback correctly.  Heck, Fold Space can be used stupid (and is often) when the user takes all the enemies from the Mez/Dam AoE the team just spent all their powers laying down.  I have seen it.  That takes some level of stupid, but there are a lot of players that achieve this naturally.  Using Knockback smartly is a much tougher game.  Not impossible, but not "I am a Fire Blaster.  I throw a Fireball" type easy.  (ps...I mostly run a Fire Blaster these days.  My butt is lazy.)

 

If you are using Knockback, learn the thing you are using.  Or do not learn it.  Your choice.  Have Fun!

 

Is this post for me?

[Forager]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

I find that hard to believe.  The "rarely" part, I mean.  i.e. Not saying there aren't busybodies out there who will get in your face over nothing, but they are not, in my experience, in any kind of majority.  Most people won't even notice what you are doing on a team and certainly won't complain about it unless it's getting in their way somehow.

 

This is one of the more bizarre phenomenons on this board...

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Forager said:

My current issue is I am not causing any of those problems, but I'm still getting the "advice" to change KB to KD.

 

I am sure this has been discussed many times. Does anyone have a short, succinct explanation that they have had success with? I'm not optimistic... as the person saying it rarely has any reasoning behind it. This is a reflexive thing people do sometimes, repeating conventional "wisdom" out of context.

 

 

Me (for Tankers, Brutes) : I'm not hearing any Taunts.

 

Me (For just about everyone): You can pick and slot an AoE Immobilize.

[Snarky]

13 minutes ago, Forager said:

 

Is this post for me?

if you want it to be, it is yours!

 

I posted in a thread about Knockback what I think about Knockback.  

 

Funny thing about Art....(and true) all art is nothing more than shapes and colors and forms.  If it means something to someone, if it communicates (especially evoking emotions) then it is Art.  

 

Did this evoke anything for you?  Amusement?  Anger?  The vague notion Snarky might be drinking a bad batch of blood today?

[MoonSheep]

the trick to using knockback is to make sure there’s someone on the team to immediately spam an AoE immob after the mobs get scattered everywhere

 

chefs kiss

[ZemX]

30 minutes ago, Forager said:

This is one of the more bizarre phenomenons on this board...

 

I'm sorry, what is "bizarre" about what I wrote?

[Luminara]

Here's a fun story that I've told before and am bored enough to tell again:

Back on the original servers, someone started a thread about the "worst" defender primary/secondary pairing.  Rad/Energy won.  Everyone insisted that the two would work against each other, increase the number of deaths by infinity, blah blah blah.  So I made one.  Around the mid- or late-20's, someone sent me a /tell.  A team was having trouble in a mission, they didn't have a defender.

 

Yes, I played on teams in those days.  Shut up, I'm in the middle of my story.

 

I accept the invitation and hoof it to the mission door, go in, and after a few floors, find the team standing at the entrance to a room full of +4 Freakshow.  They'd obviously made at least one failed attempt at clearing the room, because there were no spawns, just a mass of metal and stupid, standing still.  It occurred to me, in that brief moment, that they invited me because they were looking for a "healer"... but Lumi don't play dat.  Someone else might've bowed out, or gamely pressed on and smiled through the endless "Try to pull just one" bullshit while spamming Radiant Aura... but Lumi don't play dat either.

 

Instead, I popped Accelerate Metabolism, waited a few seconds for someone else to man up, then, when no-one showed any gumption, ran straight into the room and went banana balls.  Straight up psycho girlfriend breaking all of your shit crazy.

 

Patience is not one of my virtues.

 

KB for this group, KB for that group, KB FOR EVERYONE!  You, have some RI!  You, go eat the wall with your buddy!  WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!  WHO ELSE WANTS SOME?!  BITCH, I SAID STAY DOWN!

 

The rest of the team just stood there for a minute.  I could actually see the looks of bewilderment on their painted doll faces.

 

 

Which was a bit weird, but weird is normal for me.

 

Another minute passed, and I stopped cleaning the walls with Freak faces long enough to suggest that they might find that the mission would go a bit faster if they moved out of the doorway and into the room, perhaps pressing a number key or two every few seconds?

 

Everything was butter after that.  Mission was completed in less than ten minutes, zero deaths, I went back to doing my own thing, pretty sure they all logged out and collapsed because they'd been stalled at that room for half the lifetime of the universe.

[Akisan]

58 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

I see a lot of complaining about Fold Space, but I've never found it near as irritating as Destiny's Incandescence in the wrong hands.

 

Or my personal un-favorite:  The MM who took Team Teleport and used it to teleport all the squishies into melee.  As the opener for each fight.  Often right as (or just before) the Tank was engaging. (AKA: The reason I have the teleport prompt enabled on all of my toons.)

 

As far as KB goes:  There's good KB (keeping critters off the back line, mashing entire groups into walls/corners, perma KD), and bad KB (keeping critters off the tank/front line, scattering groups, knocking critters into your support).

 

(I don't have a good, succinct way to explain why/how KB can be good to a nay-sayer.  Breaking people of that kind of dogma is surprisingly hit or miss)

[Doomguide2005]

6 minutes ago, Akisan said:

 

Or my personal un-favorite:  The MM who took Team Teleport and used it to teleport all the squishies into melee.  As the opener for each fight.  Often right as (or just before) the Tank was engaging. (AKA: The reason I have the teleport prompt enabled on all of my toons.)

     Which is exactly why my prompt is off.  I get yoinked and now I know just how ... inappropriately they use teleport.   I'll either deal with it or 'bye, bye thanks!' depending on how things are going otherwise.

 

[Snarky]

31 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Patience is not one of my virtues.

 

KB for this group, KB for that group, KB FOR EVERYONE!  You, have some RI!  You, go eat the wall with your buddy!  WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!  WHO ELSE WANTS SOME?!  BITCH, I SAID STAY DOWN!

 

The rest of the team just stood there for a minute.  I could actually see the looks of bewilderment on their painted doll faces.

 

 

This is how I run a Fire Blaster.  Even with teams that know me I shock them.  Justice Superteamers were running a kill most +2 Posi1 last night.  Very smooth.  We get to the Simulcrum end fight.  I hear them talking tactics and strategy on Discord.  i say nothing.  i eat 4 med purp and 5 med red inspirations and calmly walk right into the group and start what AoE I have at that level.  I think the team was discussing if we should pull or focus on one guy.  It was probably a great idea.  We killed them all, we had one death (someone got veng) and i had a few seconds left on my inspirations for the side room.  

 

Fire Blasting.  "All you need is damage, damage is all you need."

[Riverdusk]

I've learned to roll with it.  Only really annoying thing about kb to me is when things get knocked and stuck into walls and you can't always get them. I find that happens way too often on 'kill all missions'.  If I run a kb heavy character I find it is almost a requirement to take teleport target so that I can yank them out (or have an untargetted aoe attack, although that can sometimes be slow).

 

As to quick and dirty advice on what to tell people.  More passive way would be probably something like, "No thanks, but I'll try to be careful with it".  Some more aggressive versions have already been mentioned.   If helps if you are the team leader as the worst they can do is quit the team.   I doubt any kb justification speech is going to change people's minds, they'd have to see you do well in actual practice I think.

 

You could even try recruiting and include the message something like "Knockback friendly team looking for more".  I've actually seen that, although rarely.

Edited July 1 by Riverdusk

[Forager]

21 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

You could even try recruiting and include the message something like "Knockback friendly team looking for more".  I've actually seen that, although rarely.

 

Why should we stop there! I should do "knockback only" teams... slotted for kb even better... complete chaos encouraged.

[Forager]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

I'm sorry, what is "bizarre" about what I wrote?

You wouldn't believe me if I told you.

[Yomo Kimyata]

5 hours ago, Forager said:

Does anyone have a short, succinct explanation that they have had success with?

 

"If you were doing your job, they would already have been killed arrested."

 

I find it difficult to believe that a good team can't figure out a good set of tactics.  I guess the problem is finding a good team, or at least 2-8 players who are team-oriented rather than being self-oriented.

 

Counter complaint:  I just realized that there isn't a single Alpha Slot Ability that enhances knockback and I request, nay DEMAND, that this is remedied ASAP.

[The Trouble]

Succinct, and easy enough to understand for all PuGs: "KB is more damage mitigation than KD."

 

For all follow up questions, and unsolicited advice? /ignore

 

Everyone remembers the newbie who set off Nova and ruined the Tanker's work.  But no one notices when an Energy Torrent sends most of a crowd back to the other end of a slow field (or other zone debuff).  No one vocally appreciates the Super hovering over the boss, dribbling them like a basketball.  Or when another gat-dang Warwolf pops up, and the team really needs a bit of a breather, and sending that dumb fuzzbucket pachinko-ing down four flights of stairs would be extremely satisfying regardless of the team's status.

 

Knockback rules.  Spread the word.

[Ravenplume]

4 minutes ago, The Trouble said:

Or when another gat-dang Warwolf pops up, and the team really needs a bit of a breather, and sending that dumb fuzzbucket pachinko-ing down four flights of stairs would be extremely satisfying regardless of the team's status.

 

Knockback rules.  Spread the word.

 

For that, we need more than just /em score10.  We need an /em tilt.

[Ravenplume]

As much as I love KB, I do also appreciate the grace and beauty of KD, particularly when a SS Tanker or Brute has KB to KD in both hand Clap and Footstomp, making all the bad guys around him dance the Tucchus Twostep.

[High_Beam]

So much usability

 

[Paradox Fate]

As many have said, it's quite situational when to use it or not, footing a similar "reputation" like Repel - A lot mess around with it, but few utilize it properly.

[Snarky]

42 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Counter complaint:  I just realized that there isn't a single Alpha Slot Ability that enhances knockback and I request, nay DEMAND, that this is remedied ASAP.

why do you hate me?

[Techwright]

6 hours ago, Forager said:

I am sure this has been discussed many times.

 

Oh no.  No, not at all. In fact, I can't remember the last time since...I dunno...since last week?

 

 

Jesting aside,  my main is an Energy/Energy blaster (aka NRG/NRG).  There are other KB powers besides those powerset, which I find highly annoying, but mostly depending on how they're played each time.  With NRG/NRG I've learned two important steps:

 

1. If one is going to play a full 6-slotted power without wasting one slot for KB-to-KD enhancement, Then an NRG/NRG needs to learn to direct their shot.  One has to put a bit of brain into it up front each shot and try to find the wall, pillar, or other obstacle that will stop the target(s).  Move to the opposite side and fire.  If far away enough, with enough experience, one might try a wall-less shot if it can be lined up so the target(s) will land near the tank.   For this, I've found hover or flight is almost a necessity, though in cramped caves, there's not much that can be done. 

 

2. The game, blessedly, has a choice of powerset layouts.  I can build one with KB--to-KD enhancements, which will underpower me, but I'll be an effective team player, and then visit the trainer to swap to the second layout to go run some solo missions where I can unleash with no one but myself to harm.

 

While I pray for the day the devs create a toggled choice: KB or KD on NRG/NRG so I can do KD and have a full 6-slots per power, I'm not holding my breath. 

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Forager said:

My current issue is I am not causing any of those problems, but I'm still getting the "advice" to change KB to KD.

 

It is not advice.

It is someone telling you how they want you to play.

 

Knockback is great. It protects the user from melee attacks and it is also a soft/temporary hold. The enemies cannot attack while they are being knocked back.

 

I ran into this alot when I first came back and wasted slots putting knockback to knockdown procs in things, but I stopped doing that along time ago.

I have run with several teams that are knockback based and they are great fun.

 

The problem is always with those playing melee characters that don't want other people's characters to use DEV-given powers.

 

6 hours ago, Forager said:

I am sure this has been discussed many times. Does anyone have a short, succinct explanation that they have had success with? I'm not optimistic... as the person saying it rarely has any reasoning behind it. This is a reflexive thing people do sometimes, repeating conventional "wisdom" out of context.

 

When it comes down to it, most players that are going to dis you about knockback don't give crap about what anyone else is doing as long is it isn't disrupting "I know how to play my character". For melee players these days, that's steam-rolling/bull-in-the-china-shop/"Hulk smash"; there is no tactics or technique and many times no taunt other than the taunt inherent in their attack powers.

 

That being said, I do think that knockback should be used responsibly.

I love to use it to corner opponents - especially individual opponents.

The other main use for it is herding/corralling. Say using  hurricane to force enemies closer to a tank (really more of a matter of the repel) and/or into a tight group so that the entirety of them can be hit with AoE controls. (Love to get an enemy stuck up in the ceiling with hurricane and watch them bounce around up there unable to attack while they are being "arrested")

 

If you are the leader of a team and someone keeps complaining about the knockback, tell them that the are free to quit the team.

If you aren't a leader of a team, thank the player for the advice.

If they don't stop complaining and they insist on staying on the team when you are leader, put them on ignore or give them the boot.

If they don't stop complaining, put them on ignore.

The fact is that there are plenty of players out there that aren't going to complain about knockback as long as you are throwing enemies into other mobs.

 

So I say, when you have knockback, EMBRACE IT. Don't waste slot(s) turning knockback to knockdown when you could put some other more useful enhancement like a damage, recharge ..... or add even more knockback (which I often do on knockback-based characters) 

[Yomo Kimyata]

46 minutes ago, Snarky said:

why do you hate me?

 

 

[Luminara]

11 minutes ago, Techwright said:

While I pray for the day the devs create a toggled choice: KB or KD on NRG/NRG so I can do KD and have a full 6-slots per power, I'm not holding my breath. 

 

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, Forager said:

 

Why should we stop there! I should do "knockback only" teams... slotted for kb even better... complete chaos encouraged.

 

I've seen that too actually, although once again it is a rare sight.  Multiples of a combination of energy blast and storm works wonders.