Elegant solution to buff Regen.

[ClawsandEffect]

Regen's biggest problem is and always has been dealing with large amounts of burst damage coming in all at once. It can weather lesser damage coming in consistently, but 4-5 big hits happening quickly can easily drop you before you have a chance to heal or regenerate. The set is so narrowly focused on regeneration and self heals that there's very little it can do about that problem. You can build for defense, and it's effective enough, but the complete lack of DDR means it is extremely vulnerable to cascading defense failure. Getting significant amounts of resistance to anything other than S/L damage is nigh impossible. 

 

My proposed solution: 

 

Take Instant Healing and change it from a very long recharge, passive regen power into an absorb shield similar to Ablative Carapace (Bio Armor) or Particle Shielding (Rad Armor). Make the base values the same as Ablative Carapace and reduce the amount of passive regen it grants because the power would be able to be constantly up. A similar idea has already been done with the Sentinel version of Regen, and I think the Scrappter/Stalker/Brute version is long overdue for a similar buff. 

 

It works from a theme standpoint (You heal so fast the damage might as well not have happened at all), and any existing Regen character would not have to change anything in their slotting because the same enhancements would be used in it.  

 

It would go a long way to making Regen a more viable set for the more challenging endgame content that it currently struggles with. Regen is still fine for doing solo content, but the more challenging things get the more it falls behind other sets because it just doesn't have the tools to deal with the newer enemy groups. 

 

Another idea I had that is more of a secondary concern is maybe adding a small amount of universal defense to Resilience. Not a lot, maybe the same base value as Weave. I know it is possible to softcap a Dark Armor scrapper or brute to all damage types other than toxic and psi because I've done it. It's possible because Cloak of Darkness is essentially a second copy of Weave giving the same amount of defense. If Regen had something similar it would be possible to do with it as well. Sure, defense debuffs are going to strip it away pretty quick, but the regeneration and heals of the set are much more effective when you're not eating every hit to the face all the time. 

 

I was part of a group of people back on the live forums that discussed things Regen needed. We hashed it out in a thread over a few weeks and the devs ended up implementing a couple of the ideas that were tossed around (regen debuff resistance and expanding Resilience to all damage instead of just S/L). We talked about a lot more than that, but we were happy that they paid attention at all and looked into it for themselves. No one brought up an absorb shield back then because the mechanic didn't exist yet (this was in maybe 2009 or so). 

 

Anyway, I personally think converting Instant Healing to an absorb shield power would improve Regen enough for it to no longer be viewed as the red-headed stepchild of armor sets. 

 

Thoughts? 

[biostem]

I'm not necessarily against your idea(s), but I think one way to significantly improve regen's performance isn't to change the powers themselves, but to add a bit of a "reaction time" variable to enemies, so that they can't all hit you with their attacks simultaneously - adding an extra quarter-second or such before each enemy attack(s) would do wonders for surviving alpha strikes.

 

Another option might be to have some of regen's click powers auto-trigger at certain points - like at 50% health, etc...

Edited July 12 by biostem

[Triumphant]

I don't know what the solution is, but it needs help.  I do wish the devs would devote some to it, in lieu of (or, at least, in addition to) working on new power sets.

 

Don't take that too hard, Devs.  I love what you guys do here.  It's just how I feel about this one particular thing, which has needed attention for some time now, but never seems to get around to being addressed.

[ClawsandEffect]

I'm not a programmer, but it seems to me that a change to a single power in a set would be easier to implement than a mechanic that would have to be spread across the entire game. 

 

That's why I suggested what I did. It's more likely to be a feasible idea. 

[FupDup]

The devs have a hard stance against any form of defense in Regen besides Moment of Glory, and the same goes for Absorb (in fact they even oppose Sentinel Regen having Absorb too). This limits our options for stuff that can be done with Regen a fair bit. 

 

Definitely needs debuff protection, including a measure of slow resistance (nowhere close to what Ice gets but something around 20% or so would be nice), 

Edited July 12 by FupDup

[ClawsandEffect]

4 minutes ago, FupDup said:

The devs have a hard stance against any form of defense in Regen besides Moment of Glory, and the same goes for Absorb (in fact they even oppose Sentinel Regen having Absorb too). 

 

Well, if that's their stance then the things they've added to the game since then have ensured it will forever be the least played set. 

 

Relying on healing and nothing else to keep you alive means you're going to get 2-shotted by things on a regular basis. 

[tidge]

Just now, FupDup said:

The devs have a hard stance against any form of defense in Regen besides Moment of Glory, and the same goes for Absorb (in fact they even oppose Sentinel Regen having Absorb too). 

 

That was my thinking to... My feeling is that Regen can't by itself shrug off all incoming damage.... which is what I think an Absorb would do.

 

My initial thinking is that the timer for the self rez should maybe be reduced? If nothing else an inherently shorter timer would allow for the character to get back into more fights, quicker. self-rez options aren't exactly hard to come by, so would it be that bad if the base recharge time was 3 minutes instead of 5 minutes?

 

 

[biostem]

Just now, Triumphant said:

it needs help.  I do wish the devs would devote some to it

No doubt.  I think part of the problem is that absorb has been kind of strewn about all different powersets.  

 

3 minutes ago, tidge said:

My feeling is that Regen can't by itself shrug off all incoming damage

Perhaps a simpler solution would be to have almost all regen powers grant extra hp, (temporary or as long as the toggle is active), in addition to having certain click powers trigger automatically at like half or quarter-health...

[kelika2]

regen had 19 years to come back

not one, but two sets of post-shutdown devs hands

i cant remember the date of issue whatever when the arena first came out but its two decade anniversary is somewhere maybe in 2025

 

let it go.

---

also i think homecoming is balanced around SOs, not IOs and +0x0 settings. so maybe in a world of only SOs regen is still king

Edited July 12 by kelika2
---

[biostem]

6 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

maybe in a world of only SOs regen is still king

I can't imagine, even ignoring set bonuses or IOs in general, how regen comes out on top.  The only edge case I can think of is in very low levels, where regen can rely on quick recovery and reconstruction, to simply and reliably keep your blue & green bars topped-up, since defense or resist sets aren't yet able to benefit from heavy slotting...

[Frozen Burn]

56 minutes ago, biostem said:

Perhaps a simpler solution would be to have almost all regen powers grant extra hp, (temporary or as long as the toggle is active), in addition to having certain click powers trigger automatically at like half or quarter-health...

 

Dull Pain already can cap your HPs and can be perma'd... so I do not see any value in this.  Unless you are talking about all granting a Heal buff (more green floating #s above your head) so that when you take damage, you're already healing back more + your natural regen without clicking Heal Self??

 

As for other options, I agree with others in that absorb or some measure of defense added in would be great - but I recognize that the Devs may not be for either of those.  Instead, I can only think that DDR and Resist Debuff Protection added to Resilience would be a huge help.  Many skip Resilience, so adding a Def/Resist debuff resistance would also encourage people to take this power (like Grant Cover in Shield Defense which is also often skipped).  

 

But also, I think people need to temper their expectations for how to play a regen character - you can't play it like other melee sets or stand still in the center of a mob like you could in the early days of COH.  You have to play it like a Blapper - hit hard with melee, but know that you're naked and may have to pop out of melee to let yourself regen some and/or let the DDR cascade dissipate for a few secs before jumping back in.  I honestly think this is how a REGEN powerset should be played - although, I recognize many may disagree.  But even with this still... I think there is some improvement that can be made to Regen to bolster it while keeping this feel.  Although, other than what's been stated here and above, I do not know what else to suggest at this point.  

[Haijinx]

While my natural inclination is to Nerf Regen, I can see why people would want it buffed. 

 

I don't know if it's possible code wise but debuffs should not last as long on Regen, since they should recover faster.

[biostem]

11 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

debuffs should not last as long on Regen, since they should recover faster.

That's actually an interesting point;  Maybe really play that up and give the set very high debuff resistances across the board...

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I don't know if it's possible code wise but debuffs should not last as long on Regen, since they should recover faster.

Code wise, that's pretty simple. You just add debuff resistance to the set that cannot be enhanced. That automatically reduces the time debuffs affect the character. However, Integration already gives Mag 7.74 Hold, Immobilize, Sleep, and Stun protection, Mag 10 Knockback and Knockup protection, as well as -10000% Knockback and Knockup resistance, 50% movement debuff resistance, and 77.4% Hold, Immobilize, Sleep, and Stun resistance. And then Resilience adds Mag 3.87 Stun protection and 129% Stun resistance. (As well as unresistible damage resistance.) So what debuffs specifically are you referring to?

[biostem]

42 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So what debuffs specifically are you referring to?

Is there a specific counter to/for regen or healing debuffs, besides just possessing higher values of those two?  What about some taunt or perception debuff resistance/protection?  Maybe a mechanic that ends DoTs sooner?

[Rudra]

17 minutes ago, biostem said:

Is there a specific counter to/for regen or healing debuffs

Yes, there is a regeneration debuff resistance. For example, Willpower's Fast Healing grants +24.188% regeneration resistance.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_defense.willpower.fast_healing&at=tanker

 

Edit:

Also, Regeneration already grants +19.35% regeneration resistance from Fast Healing (Scrapper version).

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_defense.regeneration.fast_healing&at=scrapper

 

 

And no, I do not believe there are any armor powers that grant healing resistance to protect against healing debuffs.

 

17 minutes ago, biostem said:

What about some taunt or perception debuff resistance/protection?

Yes, there is a perception debuff resistance. For example, Dark Armor's Cloak of Darkness grants +60% Perception resistance.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_defense.dark_armor.cloak_of_darkness&at=tanker

 

I don't know about taunt resistance, though I'm pretty sure there is taunt protection, at least from IO sets.

 

17 minutes ago, biostem said:

Maybe a mechanic that ends DoTs sooner?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that isn't going to be possible without some possibly major changes to the code.

 

Edited July 13 by Rudra

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I don't know about taunt resistance

IIRC, Assault has some taunt resistance.  My comments were also kind of proposing those that are missing from regen be added, as well.  I wonder if a mechanic could be added that kind of counters DoTs with an equal amount of healing in response to them, if the ability to outright end them sooner is not possible... 

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I don't know about taunt resistance

IIRC, Assault has some taunt resistance.  My comments were also kind of proposing those that are missing from regen be added, as well.  I wonder if a mechanic could be added that kind of counters DoTs with an equal amount of healing in response to them, if the ability to outright end them sooner is not possible... 

You're right, +31.605% taunt resistance.

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

I don't know if it's possible code wise but debuffs should not last as long on Regen, since they should recover faster.

1 hour ago, biostem said:

That's actually an interesting point;  Maybe really play that up and give the set very high debuff resistances across the board...

I thought resistance only reduces mezzes' duration, whereas it reduces potency for damage and debuffs?

[Haijinx]

22 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Yes, there is a regeneration debuff resistance. For example, Willpower's Fast Healing grants +24.188% regeneration resistance.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_defense.willpower.fast_healing&at=tanker

 

Edit:

Also, Regeneration already grants +19.35% regeneration resistance from Fast Healing (Scrapper version).

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_defense.regeneration.fast_healing&at=scrapper

 

 

And no, I do not believe there are any armor powers that grant healing resistance to protect against healing debuffs.

 

Yes, there is a perception debuff resistance. For example, Dark Armor's Cloak of Darkness grants +60% Perception resistance.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_defense.dark_armor.cloak_of_darkness&at=tanker

 

I don't know about taunt resistance, though I'm pretty sure there is taunt protection, at least from IO sets.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that isn't going to be possible without some possibly major changes to the code.

 

19% seems weak for "regen resist" for a powerset called Regeneration, that should definitely be much higher I think.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

19% seems weak for "regen resist" for a powerset called Regeneration, that should definitely be much higher I think.

Agreed given Willpower's +24.188%. (Edit: Though the Willpower Scrapper also only gets +19.35%, I can see Regeneration getting a regeneration debuff resistance boost.) However, is that all you were asking for?

Edited July 13 by Rudra

[Force Redux]

Regen needs to add:

-scaling resistance as health diminishes 

-innate -regen debuff resistance

-Innate -healing debuff resistance

-innate -healthcap debuff resistance

- a clicky ablation shield

 

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

-innate -regen debuff resistance

It has this.

 

5 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

-Innate -healing debuff resistance

I don't think this is even possible.

 

5 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

-innate -healthcap debuff resistance

Why?

 

5 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

- a clicky ablation shield

No, it is not a damage resist set. (Edit: Though it does already have a clicky damage resist and defense power.)

 

5 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

-scaling resistance as health diminishes 

Though Super Reflexes gets this and I was thinking earlier that Regeneration should as well, I don't think this fits, though I am not set in opposing it.

 

Edited July 13 by Rudra

[ThatGuyCDude]

6 hours ago, FupDup said:

The devs have a hard stance against any form of defense in Regen besides Moment of Glory, and the same goes for Absorb (in fact they even oppose Sentinel Regen having Absorb too). This limits our options for stuff that can be done with Regen a fair bit. 

 

Definitely needs debuff protection, including a measure of slow resistance (nowhere close to what Ice gets but something around 20% or so would be nice), 

I get the position against defense, but I can't understand taking a stance against Absorb.  Mechanically it's a lateral equivalent to +maxHP: it has a different cap and the added benefit of being able to watch the bar to see how much is left... but with the drawback that it can't be healed back up like +maxHP can.

While Moment of Glory can save you from a single Alpha strike, its long cooldown makes it an unacceptable solution for tanking purposes (which is a problem when you're a Regen Brute and the team decides you should tank, even when you can't take a hit like that over and over).  Being able to alternate between that and an absorb buffer would make a huge difference.

Heck, it could even be a string of small absorbs that fire off in succession, so that it doesn't overshadow the powerset relying heavily on the Regen stat.  IE: You get 5-some statuses with different expiration times {3/6/9/12/15 seconds, or maybe 5-second intervals?} when you activate the power; each gives you a 20% or so HP absorb when it expires to soften the hits that follow... not enough to ignore an entire Alpha Strike but enough to keep you alive through it until you can heal.

Edited July 13 by ThatGuyCDude
Fixed Typo

[Apogee]

One set has to be the worst in class and Regen has been it for far too long.  It is the only set that has it's own meme (afaik).  I am all for a buff to Regen even though it will increase the occurrence of calls to...

 

Nerf Regen

 

there, I said it.