Level Range: the Hollows

[Duuk]

While adventuring out there, even without double XP, it is difficult to get through Frostfire without hitting at least level 16, which disqualifies you from being introduced to Julius the Troll, which means no Atta.

 

Please raise the level cap for the Hollows to 19, because Atta deserves love.  (He also deserves a badge and some reward merits, but I digress.)

[Psyonico]

I regularly do the hollows *with* double xp and sometimes have to leave the zone because I'm not 12 yet by the time I finish Julius' arc (12 being the minimum for the last arc).

 

What are we doing differently?

[Duuk]

When I run Frostfire, I always gather a team of 8.  If I'm feeling feisty I run it a +4x8 difficulty.  I'll easily level 4-5 times doing that mish, it's actually more efficient than doing Posi 1 or 2.

[Rudra]

Then maybe turn off XP before you outlevel the introduction and turn XP back on after you get it?

[Greycat]

So you want to raise the level of the zone because you play in a way that gives more XP and makes you level faster...

 

I suspect there's a solution here that doesn't involve any dev effort. Besides, once you're done with the Hollows normally, you're able - or at least close to able - to start Faultline, and halfway through Faultline Striga opens up its arcs. Finishing Faultline and Striga puts you right in range for Croatoa. All these story zones become available in a nice chain.

[Jacke]

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

Then maybe turn off XP before you outlevel the introduction and turn XP back on after you get it?

 

Here's a handy macro to toggle XP off and on.

 

/macro oXP "optiontoggle noxp"

 

[tidge]

My own experience with the Hollows is this: even without using 2XP and going out of my way to NOT collect patrol XP (including exploration badges) and running solo... the only way I've run through the entire Hollows storyline without Ouroboros was by going out of my way to do so. A single side-trip to do a safeguard mission has forced me to disable XP!

 

Even so: I am not in favor of raising the level range. I always felt that The Hollows was fine, especially for its era... when debt worked differently, and leveling/teaming options were fewer.

 

I end up with the same problem in Faultline! Casually making sure I do level-appropriate Safeguards and collecting exploration badges usually means that unless I am careful I'll outlevel at least one of the arcs in Faultline. If I do a TF? fuggeddaboutit!

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 7/19/2024 at 6:47 PM, Duuk said:

When I run Frostfire, I always gather a team of 8.  If I'm feeling feisty I run it a +4x8 difficulty.  I'll easily level 4-5 times doing that mish, it's actually more efficient than doing Posi 1 or 2.

 

Just so you know, you are the reason why no one can have nice things.  I don't mind you gaming the system, but I resent you trying to change the system so you can game it better.

[Lusiphur Malache]

I'm barely level 10 when i get to FrostFire.  No 2xp, get to Wincott at level 5 after just doing Habashy arc.  Might bring in a team just for FrostFire, maybe next time i'll keep going until I finish the Hollows.

[kelika2]

I have been seeing more and more Frostfire thru Ouro groups recently on Excelsior

You do not HAVE to be there "naturally".

 

Just remember 2 things: +2 is nice for a pug since you wont out-level it in flashback mode.  and the bigass crystal in the center teleports you to the zone

[tidge]

12 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Just remember 2 things: +2 is nice for a pug since you wont out-level it in flashback mode.  and the bigass crystal in the center teleports you to the zone

 

Double-clicking the smaller pillars also teleport direct to contact... for almost every contact.

[Without_Pause]

On 7/19/2024 at 6:45 PM, Psyonico said:

I regularly do the hollows *with* double xp and sometimes have to leave the zone because I'm not 12 yet by the time I finish Julius' arc (12 being the minimum for the last arc).

 

What are we doing differently?

You solo the zone. Frostfire alone can give 3-4 levels on a team of 8. I think I got at least 3 on my character who is higher level exempted down and not using 2x XP boosters. I was able to go through the whole zone without any 2x XP booster with only being on a team for FF. I can't recall what level I ended up with, but it was at least 17.

[Without_Pause]

15 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

Just so you know, you are the reason why no one can have nice things.  I don't mind you gaming the system, but I resent you trying to change the system so you can game it better.

+4x8 FF runs with the lead using a 2x XP booster is absolutely a thing. About the only time I see if not being done is when I'm the lead. Once, I saw someone try it without using the booster. So so so many deaths.

 

There was at least at one point 1 or more players would hop on their finished builds and help out the lowbies for it. It works incredibly well when the super is a Tanker. 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

+4x8 FF runs with the lead using a 2x XP booster is absolutely a thing. About the only time I see if not being done is when I'm the lead. Once, I saw someone try it without using the booster. So so so many deaths.

 

There was at least at one point 1 or more players would hop on their finished builds and help out the lowbies for it. It works incredibly well when the super is a Tanker. 

However, this is not a reason to change the zone's level cap.

[Without_Pause]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

However, this is not a reason to change the zone's level cap.

I never implied it was. It is incredibly easy to out level The Hollows due to regular teaming without using 2x XP boosters. The last time I ran an Atta was when I was soloing the zone. On a team? I think I have done it once for HC, and I gravitate towards the popular servers. I have a genuine question for how often the last mission for the zone is ever actually run.

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

I have a genuine question for how often the last mission for the zone is ever actually run.

As often as any other late in range mission/arc would be my guess. Both "naturally" leveling up through the zone and via Ouroboros. If people play through the zone solo, they will often find themselves having to step out of the zone or do repeatable missions from Meg Mason to fill the gaps between arcs. If players play through the zone and also do radio missions and safeguards, particularly if they team, they will need to turn off XP to not out-level content just like they would for any other zone. If players want to play through the zone and also do TFs, they will need to turn off XP to not out-level content just like they would any other zone. And if players want to play through the content on teams at +4 difficulty, then of course they will need to turn off XP to not out-level content. The more content in a given level range a player wants their character to engage in at level, the more they will need to turn XP off when they get near max level for that range or content and play without XP until it is time to move on. Especially on higher difficulties with teams. However, even if they do out-level content, they can just go to Ouroboros starting at level 15 or their base starting at level 15 and use the Pillar of Fire and Ice they can find there (assuming they put one in their base) to access the arc(s) they missed.

 

(Edit: The game was never meant to have all its content played through in a single go, even back on Live before they added things like radio/paper missions. So out-leveling content if you try to do multiple leveling paths at the same time is pretty well guaranteed unless you turn off XP to do so, especially when done at higher difficulties on large teams.)

 

Edited July 21 by Rudra
Edited to correct "the" to "they".

[Frozen Burn]

No.  The Hollows does not need a level boost just because someone likes to run a particular mission with a full team at +4.  If you did, then you'd have to do that same thing for all the other zones and their story arcs.  Just... no.  Learn to manage your XP for the content you want to play.  Or get friendly with the menders in Ouroboros and learn to use that nifty crystal they have.  

[Ukase]

On 7/19/2024 at 5:35 PM, Duuk said:

(He also deserves a badge and some reward merits, but I digress.)

So, I do agree about the badge. Atta is one of those Epic encounters every character should consider having. But the story arc gives 30 merits, so not sure what you're referencing there. 

I'd be perfectly okay with the level ranges for all the contacts being stretched a bit, too. 

[Techwright]

On 7/20/2024 at 11:49 AM, tidge said:

 

Even so: I am not in favor of raising the level range. I always felt that The Hollows was fine, especially for its era... when debt worked differently, and leveling/teaming options were fewer.

 

tidge, certainly no offense intended, but you do understand that this statement comes across like a reason, more like 3 reasons, with some merit towards actually alter the current arrangement, yes?

1) "for its era"   (antiquated)

2) "when debt worked differently"  (alteration affects balance)

3) "leveling/teaming options were fewer"  (alteration affects balance)

 

I'm not saying there's a case for change, mind you.  I've no dog in this fight, as I generally avoid the Hollows having spent far too long in it during the original game.  I do enjoy occasionally helping out on the Frostfire take-down, but that's about it.  Were I to go at it again, use of Oroboros would be sufficient for me.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

tidge, certainly no offense intended, but you do understand that this statement comes across like a reason, more like 3 reasons, with some merit towards actually alter the current arrangement, yes?

 

The only reason to overhaul such old content (again!) would be... what exactly? I'm convinced that the Hollows (arcs, level ranges) pretty much exist because once-upon-a-time:

• debt at low levels was a thing
• debt could run deep
• there was no patrol XP
• there were no XP boosts

Anyone can feel free to ask that the level range of any given zone be changed... but somehow I think if that happened, then eyes would turn to Faultine, then Striga, then Croatoa, and possibly First Ward and Night Ward.

 

Yet... if instead we brought back massive debt, and got read of easy XP... perhaps the ranges would be "more organic" for some players? I'm happy with the way the game is now, and I have control of turning XP on or off as needed to complete zones at the existing level ranges... or use Ouroboros.

[Jacke]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

 

The only reason to overhaul such old content (again!) would be... what exactly? I'm convinced that the Hollows (arcs, level ranges) pretty much exist because once-upon-a-time:

• debt at low levels was a thing
• debt could run deep
• there was no patrol XP
• there were no XP boosts

 

Back in the day, before XP could be turned off, the creator of the original City of Data, Red Tomax, to get the thorough information on the various arcs he compiled, had to resort to massive debt to not outlevel contacts.  So even without the various XP multipliers available today, it would still be possible to outlevel contacts.  I've run a Blueside+Redside Completist Toon into the low 20's and I had to turn off XP to not outlevel contacts.

[Duuk]

Secret sidebar:  I think, like WoW, that story arc content needs to ALL have its level ranges opened up wider.  I'd kill to be able to level differently each time based on origin and what zones I feel like using.

[tidge]

11 hours ago, Jacke said:

 So even without the various XP multipliers available today, it would still be possible to outlevel contacts.  I've run a Blueside+Redside Completist Toon into the low 20's and I had to turn off XP to not outlevel contacts.

 

The ability to turn off XP is the answer, even if not trying to do complete content...which ought to be impossible to do without turning off XP, otherwise leveling would be a massive chore.

 

I just got another blue-side character to 50, and from memory the leveling path went like:

• Did Outbreak, some Atlas Park, started Hollows
• Started Radio/Safeguard at level 5 (did a Safeguard every 5 levels) to get Trevor Seaborn
• Only collected Patrol XP from exploration slowly
• Did some Skyway missions for a change of pace
• Started Faultline
• Started Striga
• I think I did Posi 1 at 27? Finished Tips/Alignments before 30
• I did a switch to redside to get some badges, accolades and a Patron arc at 35. I did Levantra's arcs as well.

Anyway, no more boring details... but by level 30 I hadn't used XP  boosts, and I did at least one Faultline arc  through Ouroboros, which I consider to be a fine option. After I got done with what I wanted to finish by level 43, I turned on XP boosts because the content I still wanted to do could be done though Ouroboros anyway, and there were some set bonuses I wanted more than I wanted anything else.

 

This character is still missing a couple accolades (TF Commander, Portal Jockey) and is in no rush to slot incarnate powers (but Alpha is unlocked)... which I mention because I believe that for many players, what I just described would be intolerably slow play, and an expanded level range for the Hollows would make no difference for those, or even more players.

 

For better or worse, the zone arcs that players cannot outlevel are the Rikti War Zone arcs... and that is partially because the enemies that spawn in those missions are designed to scale with difficulty. This isn't true of the Outcasts or Trolls or Minions of Igneous. We already have witnessed how some players reacted quite negatively to how the Council was made to scale up... I'm in no rush to see that for groups like the Trolls.