The Incarnate system: trivializing Archtypes

[honoraryorange]

I don't see a problem. Doesn't achieving incarnate status involve a massive amount of resources and time? You could get your toon to 50, then stop. Like we did in the old days pre IO's. Hit 50.... and you're done. Now you get to keep reaching, keep improving to meet new challenges. Sounds like fun shit to me. Can't wait until I have the INF needed to mack my main out.

 

You can literally earn T4 incarnates sitting AFK in fire farms, so no.

[Myrmidon]

Why is the AT being less important a bad thing?

This seems like a totally personal, subjective thing to me.

 

The whole idea is to create a character, IME, not 'restrict' things because 'this AT' or 'that AT' is supposed to fit neatly in a box.

Why?

Why so people think restrictions _add_ value is just beyond me.

 

In the end we are Heros and Villains, _not_ ATs.

ATs are simply a rules construct to allow for character building in my mind.

 

Why should they be used as restrictions?

Makes no sense.

 

The best post in this thread.

[Myrmidon]

On Live, the only reasonable way to obtain the new slots and materials beyond the Alpha slot was do incarnate content.  You straight up could not unlock Incarnate slots beyond Alpha without doing Incarnate content and veteran levels simply didn't exist.  And even if you got the slots unlocked, you still needed to do the iTrials, Apex/Tin Mage, and Dark Astoria to reliably get the materials at far, far lower drop rates.  I wasn't around much after the Alpha slot days, but I recall it was grindy enough that people were getting pretty burned out on the trials and stuff.

 

Especially because there were what.. 7 itrials? Pre-Dark Astoria, the only option for getting past Alpha was running those trials CONSTANTLY. Run BAF and Lambda enough to unlock Judgement and Interface, and you were lucky if you had enough resources to tier 1 both of them, and the higher level ones were built as 'gear checks', some of which if a large portion of the team wasn't at least +2 in trials you basically couldn't finish it.

 

It's nice here on Homecoming the itrials being a thing because people WANT to do them, not because they (feel like they) NEED to do them.

 

Exactly.

[ed_anger]

But I think more so the OPer and others are concerned that the powers have given things to ATs that breaks their concept and trivializes other ATs usefulness to the game. And I can not say they are wrong. My spines/fire brute now for farming can have a pet (which inever use) but a recharge bonus for powers almost as effective as speed boost, a damage buff that requires no enemies, no to hit roll, no aura to infect other enemies etc, and every two minutes max out all resistances and defense and evry two minutes drop an alpha strike as powerful as any blaster that has twice the range and hits over twice the targets.

 

Now when they decided to add epic power pools it was done with thought. Thought to not only themes to fit with power pools available like fire or cold but thought as to filling the gap in existing needs for the AT. Controllers and tankers got some blasts, def and blasters some resistances etc. But the incarnate are blanket powers to all ATs and as much as I might be willing to concede it is nice having some means of mez protection on my blaster everytime I click judgement on my brute I think "how could the devs have given me this"

 

Now I don't want them to be nerfed but I do wonder if perhaps having them scale to content would be a bad thing. For example if you are playing incarnate content they they are full powered but if you are not maby they cap out at leve tier 3 or 2. So you still benefit but not quite as much. But mainly I think most people want to be challenged. So my first thing would be I would like to see more incarnate level content put into the game. Give us more to do with the powers then a few trials and farming the same zone over and over.

 

Exactly, when everyone can do everything no one is adding anything unique. Why not just bring a ranged dps tanky blaster with max resists and pets like everyone else.

 

Some people have mentioned trying to run iTrials with minimal to no incarnates slotted, possible. And I’d also love to see more incarnate content, I just don’t know that there’s a dev team that can do that (or what, if any, roadmap Homecoming has, or their capabilities).

 

And when I originally brought this up, it’s really a question to the dev team that no longer exists: what where you thinking where you created the incarnate system? Did they not see this power creep? Did they have plans to deal with it? Was it the result of just developing for a game for years and trying to find ways to keep players engaged, without a real idea of what the consequences were?

[Rumors]

I think they noticed the power creep some, at least in hindsight.  I remember some AMA comments on both player power creep and enemy group power creep in response (First/Dark Ward groups are nasty compared to same-level groups).  There was also going to be Incarnate content in Kallisti Warf that was ramped up to where you would need Incarnate powers to stand a chance.  Like, apparently Battalion was going to be level-shifted enough that having a good set of IOs and no level/incarnate shifts would not save you and some of them would have Incarnate powers of their own, like Judgement nukes.

 

Heck, the devs even mentioned at one point they expected players to get far too powerful both gameplay-wise and narratively-wise, at which point they probably would have had the last story arc in the game do some sort of universe reset and then they'd release City of Heroes 2.

 

 

I'm not exactly here calling for nerfs, since I don't want to take power from people.  I mean, I wouldn't object to nerfs to Judgement and Destiny in normal content, but I'm not calling for them.  I just rather wish there was some way to adjust difficulty for powered up teams.  Like... using the notoriety system to give enemies level shifts, disable set bonuses, make "incarnate" enemy groups spawn (like the Nictus-infused Council over regular Council or Knives of Vengeance over Knives of Artemis), etc.

[retiarius]

Whether or not the archetypes are trivialized is significantly less impactful on a player who primarily solos rather than groups.

 

For that kind of player, as well as for the player that prefers to group, it's a simpler matter to make content difficult for yourself than it is to make content easy for yourself.

 

Difficulty can be increased any number of ways : start over at level one, up your challenge settings, artificially restrict the powers you choose to use regardless of level or ability, etc., etc.

 

As primarily a solo player, one who sometimes joins full groups, more frequently duos (or, alternatively, plays in a three- or four-person group), the appeal of gathering greater ability to do things alone is part of the appeal of the journey.  If I want to ignore the Incarnate system for my own personal gameplay, I'm free to do so; on the other hand, if I want to strive for maximum power levels, some of which make me less dependent on groupmates filling certain roles, then it is an avenue to be explored. 

 

 

[Herotu]

Awesome! I HOPE it trivializes Archetypes! I left before Incarnate stuff, so I never got a chance to play with it. I can't wait to be able to take my namesake back to the Storm Palace and absolutely WRECK those ugly eyeballs!

 

See, I couldn't disagree more. I think it's good to have that choice of character actually matter and the role I decided upon be an actual role. I think that's a cool thing.

 

I think this is something that I've noticed more and more because some blasters(!) are able to tank with the help of set enhancements and Accolade abilities.

 

Archetype homogenisation is something akin to power creep, we haven't noticed because the whole game has arrived on our doorstep as-is.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Incarnate powers are meant to literally make the character into a demi god at the least. That is what a great many will be at because they lack the build talent and play talent to be more. 

 

Those using build guides are forevera t best that tier because someone using a guide will never even be a peer to the one that created that guide. Back in the day when 99.99% of all blasters on live were seen as glass cannons my character of the same name as my handle here was a blaster that would not falter or fail when entire teams wiped around him. And this was pre incarnate. Id lead Lady Greys and ITFs daily and no matter the AT used some players just could not keep up. I had everything from scrappers to brutes to full on tanks complain about how gimp the power sets or combos they had taken were to try and shift the blame off themselves.

 

Thankfully it seems most of those players are not among the returnees as I have only encountered a single brute played that ineptly. I suspect OP your real issue stems from almost the tnire home coming population being made up of likely the best and most committed players the game had back on live.

 

However I have met those that also do not wield their incarnate abilities very effectively in large part because they are new to them as they hadnt been playing during the last  year of live. Many foolish players especially blasters ignore Clarion, a true must have for the skilled blaster build. Likewise many ignore Storm Elementals, easily the best Lore Pets especially for flying characters.

 

Even before Incarnate powers there were those running at max dif solo with impunity. My scrappers all did and I had multiple maxxed scrappers of a variety of sets. I had a Kat/SR, a BS/Regen, Claw/WP, MA/Shield, and an Eng/ENG brute all who pre incarnate trivilaized content and would lead TFs of any party make up to victory because they honestly didnt matter. However I felt the true trick of being a good leader was not letting them realize that. Basically knowing when to be clark kent rather then superman.

 

Inc abilities no more triviliaze lvls 45+ when exemping then smat exemp builds already do at other lvls with the right sets. Hell its easier then ever with easy access to attuned IOs that take away the need to sacrifice some % from the IO itself to have the set bonuses at the lowest level possible. 5 LOTG recharges and 5 lvl 50 purple sets make everyone exemping down to 22 way way more powerful then the content can challenge. That is by design because we are not a holy trinity MMO. Not even in year one. tanking and spanking, corner pulling etc are seen as basic intro play styles, not skillfull or the way its done. But what came to be known as wowtard play style.

 

No AT was ever a need that is a good thing. People should be free to play what they want with whom they want and not be forced to alt because a different AT is needed.

[Queen Nefertiti]

I've recently started my incarnate on my empathy mastermind and I'm loving every minute of it. I haven't even given any thought to min/maxing, I've picked abilities that match my existing power set and play style. I've got demon pets as I'm a demon mastermind, team buffs etc. I didnt pick with thoughts of what will make me awesome, I picked with thoughts of what will make me more of who my character is. I do find the level shift quite disconcerting when I'm on a non incarnate team, but I'm there to help and have fun. Incarnate fragments drop regularly and at some point I'll probably get bored and retire the character, just bringing her out for special occasions. I did the same on live before all this incarnates stuff came out. I had a stable of 50's that came out once every few months for a tf or a raid. At the moment I still face plant on plus 2 occasionally (usually because of Malta) and once I can run through plus 4 with my eyes closed I know its time to say goodbye. I think at some point we are going to see a situation where team leaders ask for incarnates only, or for non incarnates only. Maybe not too often, but it's an option for people who want to play a certain way.

[Xaeon]

IO set bonuses have done far more to homogenise archetypes than Incarnates ever have through the ease of making everyone into a self sustaining damage-tank who needs no support. But of course if you even breathed a word of "remove or nerf IO set bonuses" there would be riots on the street. They also let you rather easily plug in intentionally designed flaws into ATs. Dark armour has bad endurance issues, a gaping energy hole, and no KB/U/D protection? Not anymore it doesn't!

[Extor Prime]

Not a "plz nerf" post, just an observation.

All incarnate slots except Lore help shore up weaknesses in a character. Lore pets however provide ridiculous DPS, which seems a bit strange. To be handily outDPSed by a pet (while not being a pet class) is a bit unusual to say the least.

[Legree]

To be handily outDPSed by a pet (while not being a pet class) is a bit unusual to say the least.

 

A few years ago players in Star Wars The Old Republic were complaining that they couldn't solo daillies designed for two players (plus companions) so the devs buffed the already strong companions (of which every player has one out all the time) to make these daillies doable by anyone.  They later walked it back slightly but a companion in SWTOR will still out-DPS you... and out-heal you, out-tank you...  It makes an utter mockery of most regular levelling content.

 

Anyway, I think the question of whether Incarnate powers are OP will become less of an issue in time.  Someone else mentioned forming specifically non-Incarnate teams for high level but non-Incarnate content and I imagine that's the way it'll go in time once the novelty has worn off - much in the same way that we see people specifying 'speed' or 'normal' when forming teams for ITF now.

 

 

[Herotu]

IO set bonuses have done far more to homogenise archetypes than Incarnates ever have

 

It's a compounded effect. As I stated before, Archetype homogenisation is a similar effect to power creep. Remember, set bonuses happened many Issues (content patches) before incarnate powers.

[Xaeon]

IO set bonuses have done far more to homogenise archetypes than Incarnates ever have

 

It's a compounded effect. As I stated before, Archetype homogenisation is a similar effect to power creep. Remember, set bonuses happened many Issues (content patches) before incarnate powers.

 

This is no way contradicts what I said.

 

IO set bonuses pretty explicitly remove the weaknesses of every AT and Set in the game and make for an enormous gulf between players who understand the system and those who try going for just SOs.

 

A level 50 which is pimped out with set bonuses but doesn't really have any incarnates is far more powerful than a level 50 with all their incarnates but only SOs.

[Sailboat]

I recognize not everyone plays the way I prefer, in fact I'm almost certainly in the minority on this issue.  But I never wanted Incarnate powers in the first place.  The moment they were announced,  the threats of power creep, co tent trivialization,  and archetype homogenization reared their heads.  Furthermore, there was something very satisfying about "finishing" a character, which is not really possible any more.  But here we are.

[Chance Jackson]

 

People like to play god.

 

If you check out the suggestions part of the forum, there are quite a few posts from people who still don't feel godlike enough.

 

I have a friend who last night was telling me about a server called Unity where they apparently allow you six slots for every single power and you can have multiple snipes.  So I would guess people there didn't feel godlike enough either.  ::)

 

Everyone has a different definition of fun, that's all.

This, also where can I find more info about unity?

[jack_nomind]

IO set bonuses have done far more to homogenise archetypes than Incarnates ever have

It's a compounded effect. As I stated before, Archetype homogenisation is a similar effect to power creep. Remember, set bonuses happened many Issues (content patches) before incarnate powers.

This is no way contradicts what I said.

 

Maybe... but only if what you said was irrelevant.  If we pretend the argument is about big numbers, then the argument you're objecting to is something like, "100 x 100 is too large a number," with you responding, "well, 100 is a big number, too."  We're concerned with the ten thousand here; so you might not be wrong if the point you're making is just that it has factors, but it's also not responsive to the point.

 

re other points, set bonuses specifically distorted three areas disproportionately: recharge, endurance, and Defense.  there's a reason why there is less mez protection available from sets than from pool powers.  and yes, people have and still do suggest those three things should be managed/mitigated/nerfed.  i personally think the game can absorb the 'broken' endurance and Defense just fine.  recharge is... a bigger discussion.

 

Those using build guides are forevera t best that tier because someone using a guide will never even be a peer to the one that created that guide. . . .

 

my character of the same name as my handle here was a blaster that would not falter or fail . . . Id lead Lady Greys and ITFs daily and no matter the AT used some players just could not keep up. I had everything from scrappers to brutes to full on tanks complain about how gimp the power sets or combos they had taken were . . . among the returnees as I have only encountered a single brute played that ineptly. . . .However I have met those that also do not wield their incarnate abilities very effectively in large part because they are new to them as they hadnt been playing during the last  year of live.

 

Look, all the anecdotes are great but that's not really what the balance discussion is about.  I've made or revised builds for plenty of players better than myself, and cheered for everyone pushing the limits of what any AT can do.  I'm thrilled when possibilities open up because of new mechanics or interactions.  The concern isn't that X build is too strong, or that an AT can perform a slightly different role than it was designed for.  Instead, it's a problem with and for content, more like the "superman problem."  Bear with me for a sec.

 

Writing a good Superman story is hard because he's canonically only worried about three things: kryptonite, his friends/family, and the literal end of the world (which ties into 2).  (Canonically, magic also hurts him but this comes up rarely.)  There are no other challenges that phase him, so basically every superman story is one of: Lex Luthor gets ahold of some Kryptonite; Lois Lane (or Ma Kent or etc) gets kidnapped; Braniac (or Darkseid or etc) threatens the world.

 

It's almost hard to say at this point which is the worse Superman story: Superman shows up and beats up the bad guys because nothing was a threat; or Lois Lane gets kidnapped.  They are dull to the point of tears.  In order to solve this, the writers either write Superman out of his own stories (off saving the galaxy, gets sick, red kryptonite, etc etc); or they nerf him directly or relatively (e.g., "What if there's a monster so tough even SUPERMAN can't punch it hard enough!" -- despite "can punch hard enough" being one of the core Superman powers until it suddenly isn't); or they make the problem complex enough that being fast and punching just isn't the solution (and for the last one, you have to remember that e.g., global thermonuclear war is solvable by being fast enough and punching hard enough); or they make Superman the villain.  (Edit: I realized after writing this that Batman v Superman literally rapid-fires all of these problems.  Geez that was a terrible story.  Pretty dream sequence though.)

 

The point we're... at, really, or anyway right up next to... in City of Heroes is "everyone's Superman."  And that's great until you realize that it means new missions all have to be Superman stories.  Either they're all on timers, or all of the sudden Incarnate powers don't work (or they hit like wet noodles against these specific bad guys for some reason), or they work but don't affect the actual mission (there's no 'find all the clickies which were deliberately hidden in obnoxious corners' Incarnate power).  Or, somehow, they're evil or something... I'm sure there's a way for that to work.  But for a long time, the best Superman stories have been Justice League stories; stories about big, complex problems Superman can't solve as a blunt force.  And this thread is literally about not being able to do that anymore in CoH.

 

This is why I don't understand folks defending the 'it's fine everyone's Superman' position.  It is, I mean we can all have a blast with that for a few hours, but it's deadly to the story.  Even the cool high concept stuff like Battalion becomes "8-40 Supermans get in a fight with bad guys and then win."  All of the planned Incarnate content was based around the idea of making Incarnate powers functionally irrelevant to the Incarnate story -- we were literally never supposed to be powerful enough to fight Battalion on our own -- and that just seems...

 

small.

[Ommamar]

Well reading through the comments it doesn't give me any motivation to take my empathy defender past 50, oddly I get so many offers to power level when I am on that build.  Then I get into the whole why would you not want to skip the lower levels?!  It sounds like they are just much more developed and balanced then the end game I just see no reason to rush through or skip them so maybe I am making the right decision to extend the enjoyment of the game.

[justicebeliever]

 

The point we're... at, really, or anyway right up next to... in City of Heroes is "everyone's Superman."  And that's great until you realize that it means new missions all have to be Superman stories.  Either they're all on timers, or all of the sudden Incarnate powers don't work (or they hit like wet noodles against these specific bad guys for some reason), or they work but don't affect the actual mission (there's no 'find all the clickies which were deliberately hidden in obnoxious corners' Incarnate power).  Or, somehow, they're evil or something... I'm sure there's a way for that to work.  But for a long time, the best Superman stories have been Justice League stories; stories about big, complex problems Superman can't solve as a blunt force.  And this thread is literally about not being able to do that anymore in CoH.

 

This is why I don't understand folks defending the 'it's fine everyone's Superman' position.  It is, I mean we can all have a blast with that for a few hours, but it's deadly to the story.  Even the cool high concept stuff like Battalion becomes "8-40 Supermans get in a fight with bad guys and then win."  All of the planned Incarnate content was based around the idea of making Incarnate powers functionally irrelevant to the Incarnate story -- we were literally never supposed to be powerful enough to fight Battalion on our own -- and that just seems...

 

small.

 

+1 Inf - Well said...

[Legree]

Well reading through the comments it doesn't give me any motivation to take my empathy defender past 50, oddly I get so many offers to power level when I am on that build.  Then I get into the whole why would you not want to skip the lower levels?!  It sounds like they are just much more developed and balanced then the end game I just see no reason to rush through or skip them so maybe I am making the right decision to extend the enjoyment of the game.

 

You are.

 

City of Heroes has always been about the journey, and for most of the game's run the endgame was 'now roll a new alt.'  The rush to endgame is nuts, seeing as there's very little of it, and perhaps more importantly, it's very unlikely there'll be more any time soon.

[Chance Jackson]

That's what this game _is_, a power fantasy, so where is the problem other than not enjoying the power fantasy?

Not everyone thinks that this game IS just a power fantasy... consider that players dial up the difficulty as high as it will go. If all they wanted was to smash mobs like superheroes beating up gun-toting mobsters, they would run it at -1/x8 to have more bodies falling to the floor, faster.

xp/reward rates would plummet under that scenario, put it this way, if the rewards for -1 were the same as +4 what percentage of players would bother with +4?

[Shinobu]

Furthermore, there was something very satisfying about "finishing" a character, which is not really possible any more.  But here we are.

 

On the contrary, there is something very satisfying about my character never truly being finished.  8)

[Machariel]

IOs opened up the possibility of everyone being Superman/Superwoman/Supersomethingelse more than Incarnates did, I think.  But I don't find them as objectionable or feel like they make archetypes trivial.  Now, they do make a lot of regular CONTENT easy, absolutely.  But the big difference between IOs and Incarnates to me is that you can have two characters with the same power sets built for different tasks and with different IOs and they'll function differently.  A plant/storm controller, plant/fire dominator, TW/Bio scrapper, fire/time corruptor, MF-ing warshade, etc etc etc are all super strong builds capable of just steamrolling 90+% of the content in this game. 

 

But, they all have different weaknesses (and indeed use their Incarnate powers differently to cover those weaknesses) and they all play very differently.

 

Incarnates, though - you get 8 incarnates on a team and it doesn't matter what any of them do because you can just roll judgement powers :p so while the characters do play differently solo, once you get in a big team it all kind of washes together.

though honestly any 8 lvl50 IO'd characters would go almost as fast anyway, probably (or a moderately synergistic team running SOs)

 

I think overall it's not a huge problem.  With how easy it is to make new characters and IO them out now compared to Live, it's easy to roll up a new character without incarnates, or to go do Ouro content, or join a lower level task force.  Or you can do what I do and play at 54x8 and invite mostly lowbies to your radio team when you just want to farm some content c:

[Rumors]

I think IOs, despite being as strong or arguably stronger than Incarnates, are more acceptable for two reasons.  These are just my guesses and are mostly observations.

 

1)  Making an IO set build takes a lot of time and planning.  Even if you just copy a build, someone had to design it.  It's a very involved processed, juggling slots, enhancements, procs, bonuses, the rule of 5, and so on and so forth.  And, in the end, your IO build is what you make of it.  Incarnates, meanwhile, are handed out pretty easily (now) or were merely a repeatable grind (Live).  There wasn't much investment in it in terms of planning.  You look at your options, point at one and say "I want that one", and then you go and get it.  Picking Incarnate powers is more akin to crafting generic IOs, except Incarnates take a bit more time and are shinier.

 

 

2)  IO sets are subtle. In the heat of the battle, you're not gonna notice the Blaster wading into the group of enemies while they all whiff on him nor are you going to notice the Spines/Dark Brute with 10 toggles having effectively unlimited endurance.  And if you do notice, you'll (probably) feel a bit of respect for the player for coming up with a build that lets them do that (or at least taking the time to find the right one to copy). 

 

Incarnates are very in your face.  You're gonna notice you're basically immortal because someone's thrown shiny bubbles on you.  You're gonna notice the nukes because of the big, fancy explosions and the mob you were targeting decided to take all of his friends with a dirt nap.  Or someone's gonna have a big, honking Longbow Robot stomping around wrecking everything every few minutes.  It's very easy to pick out when its trivializing stuff in a team situation while it's much harder to determine if your team has is having too little challenge because of too strong of set bonuses or you have too many Defenders.

[Machariel]

things

This is so exactly what I was trying to say that I'm tempted to delete my post above.  +1 inf for you  8)