How do the MM sets compare against each other these days?

[SmalltalkJava]

:o I forgot about this thread.  I should have just bumped it and asked, but instead I created a new thread asking this same question.  Has anyone reported this as a bug regarding beast pets?

[SmalltalkJava]

I created a bug report.

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,7133.0.html

[Pherdnut]

They're all viable and people tend to be quick to judge primaries before leveling very far which is a mistake with MMs. New pet tiers and the second upgrade are major improvements for all MMs. In order of ones I have the most experience with

Demons - versatility - pet debuffs/CC - built-in -res

* They're pretty tough - definitely not as many squishy tier 1 phases
* Every whip strike does 9.? -res and about half of the two ember demon attacks (2 ranged, 1 cone each do 15-20 -res) - they all last only a few seconds but they add up

* Each whip takes a different offensive set - handy for slotting purples
* Lots of CC/debuff - a sleep (probably not worth mentioning since the AoE wrecks it), a hold, and all but 1 attack for each of the two ice demons do slow and -recharge
* They don't have big AoE but they have an awful lot of it with every demon getting a cone attack (130 arc/60ft for the Tier 3), a couple ranged 10-15s, PBAoE, and a persistent damage aura.
* Lethal, ice, fire and toxic damage

* Tons of toxic and fire dots
* Excellent support pet with single-demon heal, mass heal, and ember shield, which provides res in a bunch of categories and is doubled for you and the support demon
* The buff/imp spawning power gives you an extra slot to dump MM set auras into - great for slotting flexibility
* I like their AI -  they tend to throw down all their ranged first (there's quite a bit of it) and then move in closer for their melee attacks. It's nice and predictable and the pack tends to stay nice and tight for supremacy without the need for giving move orders. I mostly control by setting targeting or setting defense mode
* Amazing synergies with Dark Miasma which adds a ton more debuffs including -regen, amazing heal, another pet, and combines pet/you holds for AV-holding potential
* Defensive diversity - it matters less in the late game but in particularly challenging areas, often a couple demons gets squishy while the rest stay tough - IMO preferable to all of your guys having the same achilles' heel
* Nice -res stacking with any -res secodary -  IIRC sonic, traps, heat, ice, storm(?) - great for AV killing with any strong -regen set with all the -recharge

 

 

Bots - toughness, big AoE

* IMO 2/3 nonessential MM attacks - good for late game respeccing to pool power flexbility
* They start out sturdy, then protect bot bubbles make them sturdier

* Primarily energy damage but some powerful variety coming from Assault Bot
* Protect bots also heal other bots
* There's a 100% bot heal
* Huge area AoE from the Assault Bot

* Quite survivable regardless of secondary but superb tanking potential with Traps, FF, and maybe Sonic for a strong resists/def combo
 

 

Beasts - Damage (crits), speedy, mostly melee, pretty tough at tier 3 and second upgrade
 

* Highly underestimated - fortitude for crits, the tier 3 and the 2nd upgrade are orders of magnitude improvements to the set

* Popular theme choice, storm, might not be the best choice - melee-heavy needs heals, defensive buff, or defensive debuff support IMO* Most attacks are melee and they're really fast. Nice synergy with aura debuffs from Sonic or Poison
* They get crits around mid-game. No joke.
* You also crit and the rate gets pretty crazy - Made a new toon "Birdspam" to see where I can take this
* Some nice debuffs on the MM attacks - helps to spread them around early on
* Keep that third wolf alive. It's  a big source of buffs.
* The rep for accidental aggro is on bad MMing - speed is good - learn to use heel when they're getting pulled or use defensive stance after setting the last target in a fight to keep them from picking new targets

 

 

Necro - Butt-tons of CC/debuffs - strong MM attacks -slow-as-!@#$-tier 1s

* Another strong Miasma synergy for lots of combined CC/debuffs, but I had to go with Kin to mitigate that tier 1 speed
* More than any other MM, IMO, they truly hit an order of magnitude with every new tier of pet and upgrade
* MM's attacks are among the strongest and -ToHit debuff, which is critical early on for survival - spread it around until zombies get tougher
* The CC makes the primary set alone quite survivable once you're at 2nd upgrade. As flexible as bots for secondary pairing IMO - might want teleport friend on a very short interrupt/recharge if you don't go kin though

Ninjas - Great DPS, speedy, glass jaws

* IMO, nonessential MM attacks - frees up more space for pool powers

* Huge damage bump from tier 2s, which gives them some heavy DPS earlier than most
* Great with a strong defensive secondary
* Or maybe embrace their strengths and try Kin. Saw a toon on Everlasting "Humble Shu" IIRC absolutely mad-murdering everything insanely fast on a PI radio mission with that combo - I assume kin doesn't beef up recharge for pets but closing that much more quickly seemed to make for really quick mob kills

Mercs - Range/AoE - not super-far with these guys yet - but most-frequently stated least-favorite along with beasts - still fun/viable in my book

* IMO, nonessential MM attacks - frees up more space for pool powers

* Great range for focused opening attacks - they alpha quite nicely and do it from far away.
* Weak on damage types - smashing/lethal only- I suspect -res helps them more than most

* Least favorite range/melee dynamic/AI, some mostly stay ranged while others rush up and melee spreading them all over the place - move micro is probably more important with this primary than others
* Good heals or defensive buffs/debuffs might make the early to mid game easier - squishiest squishy tier 1 phase yet, for me - medic has terrible triage skills with that single-heal power


Thugs - Well-liked for (I gather - mine are still lowbies) toughness, DPS, damage versatility, GANG WAR

* IMO, nonessential MM attacks - frees up more space for pool powers
* Like Demons, has an additional power that takes pet set pieces

[Mageman]

One thing I don't see mentioned in the list of secondaries is /kin (now available on homecoming). I would think that using Fulcrum Shift would be awesome at higher levels but leveling up to 38 could be a problem.

 

While leveling my MMs in the past (live servers), I always took the Leadership power pool for +Def, +Acc, and +Damage. Massively helpful at lower levels - especially before slotting with all those expensive IOs.

[Redlynne]

Kinetics is "good" for teammates, but "poor" for most Mastermind Pets.  That's because a LOT of what Kinetics does for you (and your team) simply doesn't translate all that well (or at all!) into Mastermind Pets.

[tremor3258]

39 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Kinetics is "good" for teammates, but "poor" for most Mastermind Pets.  That's because a LOT of what Kinetics does for you (and your team) simply doesn't translate all that well (or at all!) into Mastermind Pets.

Just to add on this as it comes up a fair amount - pets don't get affected by recharge boosts (pet summons do) because the selection scripts behind their attack patterns can't handle when the timing changes on the chain.  They'll get the +recovery but a big part of kinetics doesn't apply.

 

Teammates will still regularly love you but you, yourself, won't kill stuff faster outside the damage increases.

[TheSpiritFox]

I love my bots/traps and thugs traps, very sedate playstyle and a roomy build. 

 

But demons/nature and thugs/time are my overall favorites. Thugs/time is just ridiculous. Gang war on a like 3 minute timer, burnout on a 7 minute timer, softcapped pets with room for all the resistance uniques, making them pretty solidly tough. Demons/nature is like "Do you want to play a support that can tank and kill an AV? Do you like blocking doors and annoying yourself and others and have that be the only real downside of your set? Play Demons/nature"

[Zeraphia]

I'd say this is moreso how it goes:

1. Thugs (there is going to be considerable debate on this one being picked #1 over robots, but I must say there is a reason, the enforcers give more defense overall than the robots, and they defend themselves, the robots do not. The damage they deal is considerably higher given how many procs they accept, they also get to put in buildup in enforcers AND bruiser because of the fact that the enforcers give tactics. They also have by far the best AOE, and damage can be spiked with Gang War, also Gang War allows excellent slotting opportunities. This set is a bit of a bloomer, but once it is IO'd and bloomed, it surpasses the others IMO.)

2. Robots (the robots are still well-loved and rightfully so. The T2 minions give force field buffs for only 1% off the double manneuvers of enforcers from the set above. The set is a definite late-bloomer, the Assault Bot gives excellent AOE burn patches and -regen so excellent AV/GM killer. The issue that this set suffers from is mainly just low base damage.)

3. Demons (this is an excellent choice as well. The demons give -res, which is extremely helpful for teams. The demons are sturdy with the res they're given, and with the right secondary can beat the other top 2 in a handful of their combinations. Demons also can accept excellent procs and shines really well as an easy-going set all around and not necessarily a late bloomer. There is a Gang War type of power this set receives so it makes slotting opportunities really open up.)

4. Beasts (this set is a "life's what you make of it" set. This set can perform really really poorly un-enhanced and can be very easily dismissed. It is a late bloomer, not as much as robots, but definitely so. The pets can actually accept a handful of wonderful procs including gaussian's in the T1 which with their crit strikes and later IO's make this actually a pretty great performer in some cases. Fortify pack can cap defenses pretty regularly, the minions themselves actually aren't bad. If you're willing to deal with a rocky start and make something very unique, this one may be for you!)

5. Necro (Necro isn't bad, just not a particularly "amazing" primary. It doesn't boost the same feats as the other ones, but the Lich does respond exceptionally well to the Clouded Senses proc, there are a couple of Achilles opportunities here as well, there is a 4th minion power type to help with slotting. Built right, this set is fine, it just doesn't "shine" as well as the other 4 already mentioned, although the minions can be kind of... slow!)

6. Ninjas (ninjas are tricky. They can be extremely damaging, they also get sliced through like paper. Their inherent defenses are not good, they're some of the absolute worst, they're also majority melee ranged, they do tend to die quite a bit more often than other sets. That said, you build this properly, and it responds nicely to procs, the minions are very damaging, and it can indeed "shine" it just needs a LOT of planning/building love and care to get there with this, I'd say 9/10 don't pick Ninjas unless you've really got a thought out build for them.)

7. Mercs (these are just dreadful. The medic may have been improved recently from his former "deathwish" to constantly suicide himself, but that was only the tip of the iceberg. Mercs have terrible base stats, they're some of the weakest minions, they die the 2nd easiest, they don't respond that well to procs, there is no 4th minion to help with slotting opportunities, please do not pick this.)

[nzer]

8 hours ago, 33053222 said:

they also get to put in buildup in enforcers AND bruiser because of the fact that the enforcers give tactics.

Not as of this latest patch unfortunately; Gaussian's Chance For Build Up affects the player when summoning the pet, it doesn't proc on the pets from their tactics aura anymore

[Zeraphia]

4 minutes ago, nzer said:

Not as of this latest patch unfortunately; Gaussian's Chance For Build Up affects the player when summoning the pet, it doesn't proc on the pets from their tactics aura anymore

You are correct, I just checked this, I still think that they're still in relatively the same rankings but possibly Thugs and Robots are now equal now. I don't think the rest changed too much.

[Apparition]

7 minutes ago, nzer said:

Not as of this latest patch unfortunately; Gaussian's Chance For Build Up affects the player when summoning the pet, it doesn't proc on the pets from their tactics aura anymore

 

That is a known bug.

[nzer]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

That is a known bug.

Can you point to someone from the team confirming that? I know it was stated that proc enhancements from pet sets aren't currently affecting the pets like they're supposed to, but Gaussian's isn't a pet set, and per Captain Powerhouse non-pet sets are supposed to proc only when summoning pets and buff the player. Note that Gaussian's Chance For Build Up doesn't specifically say it affects pets like, for example, Soulbound Allegiance's Chance For Build Up does.

Edited February 25, 2020 by nzer

[Kommon]

I like Bots for the toughness versatility of the set, but I prefer Thugs for their sheer damage potential while still have adequate suitability.  I never really liked Necromancy nor Ninjas, as I felt like trying to control melee pets was like trying to herd cats on a catnip farm.  Mercs were okay for a pet class, but the Spec Ops ruined it for me; there's only so many times I can watch them waste all their hard controls on a half dead minions while trying to run up to a boss rank target to attemp to rifle butt them, just to end up dead.  Demons have decent damage and suitability, similar to Thugs, but I couldn't stand their huge, slow moving models nor their extremely annoying sounds.  I yet to play Beast to a high level, but I will probably have the same issue with them that I had with Ninjas and Necromancy.

 

In my personal ranking, Bots used to be better than all the other sets easily, before the burn change.  Bots are one of the easiest sets to manage and they survive quite well by themselves.  While their damage potential is quite backloaded, meaning that they have super slow kill speed with large groups until level 32, they make up for it with surviving much better than the other mastermind summing sets.  On Live, I had a Bots/TA which I rerolled into a Bots/Dark, which became my main character.  Though /TA has little in the way to help my pets survive, the Bots held themselves to together quite well.  Since then, changes in damage mechanics, pet AI, and IOs have made Thugs usurp Bot's place at the top of my ranking.^{(**See note for more detail)}  Right at the start, Thug's fast attacks and decent damage simply work out of the box; no random, uncontrollable knockback, no roaring noises, no melee pets running around randomly dying, just bang bang, dakka dakka, pow pow, boom, and done.  You can tell Thugs were released after the original summoning sets from the improvements Thugs brought over the others; the leveling experiencing is much smoother than the original sets.

 

 

 

**I'm still a bit irked from when the old Devs they changed how how much damage burn patches dealt.  When /FA's Burn power was changed to front load more damage on initial activation of Burn and lower the number damage ticks from the burn pseudo pet, they also indirectly lowered the Assault Bot's damage potential, since Incendiary Swam Missiles use the same pseudo pet for its burn patches as /FA Burn power.  Before the Burn change, the burn pseudo pet had a damage tick every .2 seconds and a max targets of 5 within an 8 foot AoE.  After the change, the burn pseudo pet went to a damage tick every .8 seconds.  Luckily, the old Devs made a separate pseudo pet for the Thug's Arsonist when the set was originally created so that the Arsonist's Fire Bomb damage would be on par with a minion level pet (about 50% damage per tick compared to burn), so it avoided the damage tick rate change.  While the Arsonist's burn pseudo pet does half the tick damage of the regular burn pseudo pet, its damage ticks every .2 seconds. 

 

Now, Incendiary Swam Missiles still do a ton of damage when mobs are packed together, but having experienced how much damage it dealt before the change leaves me a bit disheartened when I play my current Bots masterminds.  Now, if I were to compare the Assault Bots's Incendiary Swam Missiles and the Arsonist's Fire Bomb, the Arsonist's Fire bomb actually does all of it's damage faster than the Assault bot does (ISM burn patches have ~26 ticks over 20 seconds while FB has ~50 ticks over 10 seconds).  So.... that plus the other Thug henchmen's support and damage is why it is easily my #1 pick for best summoning class right now and Bots are my runner up for the still-great damage and great support it the set brings.**

[Redlynne]

10 hours ago, 33053222 said:

6. Ninjas (ninjas are tricky. They can be extremely damaging, they also get sliced through like paper. Their inherent defenses are not good, they're some of the absolute worst, they're also majority melee ranged, they do tend to die quite a bit more often than other sets. That said, you build this properly, and it responds nicely to procs, the minions are very damaging, and it can indeed "shine" it just needs a LOT of planning/building love and care to get there with this, I'd say 9/10 don't pick Ninjas unless you've really got a thought out build for them.)

I still recommend Ninja/Time/Mace ... It's A BOW Time for anyone who wants to play Ninjas (like, AT ALL).  Time Manipulation is the "secret sauce" that Ninjas need in order to thrive.

[ShardWarrior]

On 6/27/2019 at 10:51 PM, Dakkaface said:

Really? From what I've head it's Ninjas that are dead last.

Having recently leveled my Ninja/Dark MM to 50, I can confirm that Ninjas stink.  For supposed melee pets, they are dreadfully awful. 

[Crysis]

On 2/24/2020 at 10:18 PM, Redlynne said:

I still recommend Ninja/Time/Mace ... It's A BOW Time for anyone who wants to play Ninjas (like, AT ALL).  Time Manipulation is the "secret sauce" that Ninjas need in order to thrive.

Can second this guide Redlynne.  I’ve played many Ninja combo’s (Ninja/TA....please just kill me now), and frankly Ninja/Time is about the ONLY way to play Ninja’s at anywhere close to the same level as other MM sets.  Still not meta, but definitely plugs a ton of the holes.

 

To add my opinion to this thread, I think for years Bots was top tier and could be married up against almost any of the secondaries and still remain in the top 10 combo’s for the MM AT.

 

HC brought some changes about to make me now say that Thugs is likely just a smidge above Bots in most areas, and considerably the highest DPS potential when married up against /Time or /Storm, with maybe Demons now knocking on Bots second place depending on the secondary.

 

HC really has made MM’s an entirely new class to play, and I think the playerbase is starting to notice this.  For a long time, MM’s weren’t fun to team with and while I always enjoyed them, they weren’t really top tier on anything.  Not so anymore.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Crysis

[Redlynne]

10 hours ago, Crysis said:

Can second this guide Redlynne.  I’ve played many Ninja combo’s (Ninja/TA....please just kill me now)

I keep trying to warn people away from Ninja/TA ... but sometimes people just have to directly experience the awfulness in order to comprehend it for themselves.

 

Thanks for the recommendation on the build though.  There's a LOT in there that I discovered/found that I hadn't been expecting, hence why the ... preamble ... to the build itself is so involved (and I would like to think, inspirational, once it is completely read and the implications understood).

10 hours ago, Crysis said:

and frankly Ninja/Time is about the ONLY way to play Ninja’s at anywhere close to the same level as other MM sets.  Still not meta, but definitely plugs a ton of the holes.

Yeah.  Time Manipulation just fills in way too many of the "gaps" that Ninjas have simultaneously and thus making them actually "viable" if not exactly maximal top tier.  The difference in survivability (Ninjas weak point!) is simply too great to ignore/pass over.

[Dr Causality]

Not to step on any toes, but if I'm being honest Ninja/Time is good basically just because /Time is so good, that's it's still good despite the (min/max) fail of choosing Ninjas.  😋

 

Ninjas were my first MM and thematically still my favorite. Enough so that they still break my ❤️.    But after playing other sets, there are only two reasons to play Ninjas: theme or you want a challenge.  It's literally like taking Ninjas to a gun fight.

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Dr Causality

[Redlynne]

19 minutes ago, Dr Causality said:

It's literally like taking Ninjas to a gun fight.

Which is why you use Bullet Time with your Ninjas ... 😎

 

Remember kids:

Guns don't kill people.

SWORDS KILL PEOPLE!!!

[Dr Causality]

Bullets in your Ninjas, is exactly why you don't bring Ninjas to a gun fight.....Much better to put bullets in your gun. 😋

 

But I'll give it to you the Ninja/Time guide is probably the best possible version of Ninjas, getting them respectably close to on par with many other combos.