Anti-mez buff powers...why so fickle to use?

[Seldom]

Back in my day as I walked to Atlas/Mercy uphill both ways during snowstorms on live, many folks complained about how bad force-field was, or the annoyance of speed boosting a whole team, or spending half their time keeping fire shield on each and every mastermind minion. Jump ahead, and most of the 'busy work' buff powers have long lasting effects and/or apply to a whole team.

 

Except for one particular buff type: anti-mez powers. They're all single target, with a shorter duration.

 

The easiest comparison: Sonic resonance.

• Power 1: Sonic Barrier, resistance to smashing, lethal, and toxic. Max targets: 255, 240s duration, 2 sec recharge
• Power 2: Clarity, mag -12.975 mez to all,  216% sleep resistance. +Perception. Max target: 1, 90 sec duration, 4 sec recharge.

Neither power helps the caster, both only help buddies. Both require the sacrifice of a power choice to do a specific task. One works on the same duration/application/recharge as most of the set's other buffs and is relevant across most of the game. The other offers super specialized protection that requires a specific target, has a shorter duration, and recharges slower. I greatly appreciate that the ease of playing shielders/buffers/etc. has vastly improved. But what's up with anti-mez powers? Mez, outside of malta is often short-lived if present at all, and many powersets offer full protection against it. Yet the anti-mez buffs seem to exist in this weird legacy state, as though it's a scary thought that a power meant to protect from mez would do that too easily.

 

I know, I'm a lazy, bad support dude, 'cuz half the time I even have one of these powers, I've neglected to keep it up across the team between clicks/toggles, and attacks, notice a friendo has FINALLY gotten mezzed (I can use that -mez power!) ...and by then they just chomped a break free and gotten back to it. The single target/lower duration protection is a thing across the board:
Clarity: -12.975 mez to all,  216% sleep resistance, +perception. Single target, 90 sec duration, 4 sec recharge
Enforce morale: -12.975 mez to all,  216% sleep resistance, +5% recharge, +move speed, minor damage. Single target, 90 sec duration, 4 sec recharge

Clear mind: -12.975 mez to all,  216% sleep resistance, +perception. Single target, 90 sec duration, 4 sec recharge

Antidote: -12.975 mez to all,  216% sleep resistance, +toxic/cold resistance, +50% -run/-recharge protection. Single target, 90 sec duration, 4 sec recharge

02 Boost: Heal, +end/recovery protection, -10.8 mez to Stunned, Sleep, Single target, 60 sec duration, 4 sec recharge.

Increase density: +smashing/energy resistance (AoE, max targets 255), -12.975 mez to Held, Immobilized, Stunned, -KB, -jump: Single target, 60 sec duration, 3 sec recharge (Side note: why is this both a single target power with one set of effects, with a minor but different AoE effect that all use the same buff icon? It's super confusing to keep up!)

Thaw: -12.975 mez to all,  216% sleep resistance, +10% cold resistance, +80% -run/-recharge protection. Single target, 90 sec duration, 4 sec recharge

 

My knee-jerk reaction would to be to go in one of two directions:

• Double down on these being specialized single target buffs, making them last longer and do more since they're hard to keep up. Give them more than a -mez, since few enemies use mez, and many players bring their own -mez protection. Heck, I'd be fine if they got a longer recharge if they LASTED longer. Some of the above list do more than -mez, but most are still super-specialized, with the exception of O2 boost. (Which is partial -mez anyways)
• Just make the anti-mez powers easily 'splash' across the entire team to make them easier to keep up so I don't have to find that one guy snoozing in a crowd team members and enemies the exact way the other team buffs do.

Am I nuts here? What am I missing? Why, of all the buffs, do anti-mez effects across a team need so much busy work?

Edited August 26 by Seldom
typo

[Snarky]

I am guessing (and it is a guess) that mez is meant to be tough to solve.  If a defender could anti mez an entire team constantly it could change a lot of high end builds and playstyles. 

[Seldom]

I get that but...they gave us these powers that literally do just that. In most cases, literally just that.

 

90/60 secs duration with 4 sec recharges isn't 'hard' to solve, it's just inconvenient. And in a lot of cases, worse for the team because I'm spamming the usually pointless effects rather than damage/debuffs/buffs that help the team every time. I can take these anti-mez for cases where we are facing tricky enemies, or just wanting to be a good team buddy, but even then an inspiration or just good defense invalidates the need for the power pick. High defense already 'solves' much of mez by just making the whole powers just with mez effects just miss, and defense is all over the place. Blargh.

Sorry, now I'm ranting because I talked myself into taking antidote on my poisoner, and the rare times I saw somebody mezzed, the person was already out of the mez before I dropped the thing on them. I was like 'what's the point of this?' and also 'why is this so finicky to keep up?' It literally has pretty much one job. ...and it seems to deliberately make doing that well annoying instead of easy and helpful.

[Glacier Peak]

33 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I am guessing (and it is a guess) that mez is meant to be tough to solve.  If a defender could anti mez an entire team constantly it could change a lot of high end builds and playstyles. 

Pretty much this.

[Snarky]

5 hours ago, Seldom said:

I get that but...they gave us these powers that literally do just that. In most cases, literally just that.

 

90/60 secs duration with 4 sec recharges isn't 'hard' to solve, it's just inconvenient. And in a lot of cases, worse for the team because I'm spamming the usually pointless effects rather than damage/debuffs/buffs that help the team every time. I can take these anti-mez for cases where we are facing tricky enemies, or just wanting to be a good team buddy, but even then an inspiration or just good defense invalidates the need for the power pick. High defense already 'solves' much of mez by just making the whole powers just with mez effects just miss, and defense is all over the place. Blargh.

Sorry, now I'm ranting because I talked myself into taking antidote on my poisoner, and the rare times I saw somebody mezzed, the person was already out of the mez before I dropped the thing on them. I was like 'what's the point of this?' and also 'why is this so finicky to keep up?' It literally has pretty much one job. ...and it seems to deliberately make doing that well annoying instead of easy and helpful.

Still guessing. But you seem to be making my point for me.  If the team wants this it is ALL the defender does…

Edited August 26 by Snarky

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Moved to suggestions and feedback.

 

I was very disappointed to learn that Increase Density was AOE for resistance, but anti-mez was single target.  Almost ruined my enjoyment of a thugs/kin MM.  Luckily Gang War + Fulcrum Shift + Burnout + Gang War + Fulcrum Shift brought back some of the joy.

[Shin Magmus]

   It just seems to be a design decision that has inertia at this point.  Changing it would be a massive buff to all sets with these powers, and that seems to be a bridge too far (for now).  AoE Antidote and Thaw would be the strongest ones because those powers AREN'T DEAD PICKS since they can mule Resist set IOs but they also provide significant Slow/-Rech Debuff Resists: Thaw provides more and it will hard-cap your stat in most cases.  Making that AoE would be pretty stronk...

[Seldom]

9 hours ago, Snarky said:

Still guessing. But you seem to be making my point for me.  If the team wants this it is ALL the defender does…

 

Lol. I guess, but if it's powerful, why not make it a limited use thing via longer recharge, only let them work on already mezzed allies, give them limited 'charges,' stuff like that?

Treating anti-mez as both very powerful but constantly spammable seems to be at cross-purposes. 'Click heavy busy work' isn't a balance means used for most other effects.

Ironically, this was the exact argument used for FF/Sonic/Thermal/Cold shields being single target back in the day, and yet they 'fixed' all those buffs. Buffs which are way more powerful than anti-mez.

[Doomguide2005]

And there's the consideration of how it would effect Clarion which right now is the only AoE anti mez.  While there'd still be some effects from the radial side it would have quite a neutering effect particularly to the Core side of the Ability

[Seldom]

30 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

And there's the consideration of how it would effect Clarion which right now is the only AoE anti mez.  While there'd still be some effects from the radial side it would have quite a neutering effect particularly to the Core side of the Ability

 

I get the thought but....look at the list in the OP. Most of the powers do one thing, add anti-mez. That's all they're meant to do. Forcefield/sonic don't invalidate Barrier, nor does Regen aura/healing aura invalidate rebirth.

Clarion still protects from more stuff than many anti-mez buffs, and is available from way more than empathy/thermal/poison/pain/kin/sonic/storm buffs. It also affects the caster, unlike these sets.

[macskull]

46 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

And there's the consideration of how it would effect Clarion which right now is the only AoE anti mez.  While there'd still be some effects from the radial side it would have quite a neutering effect particularly to the Core side of the Ability

Dark, Cold, Storm, Sonic, Force Fields, Traps, Elec, and Trick Arrow also have AoE mez protection in some form or another.

[Seldom]

double post

Edited August 26 by Seldom
reposted, my bad

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, Seldom said:

 

Lol. I guess, but if it's powerful, why not make it a limited use thing via longer recharge, only let them work on already mezzed allies, give them limited 'charges,' stuff like that?

Treating anti-mez as both very powerful but constantly spammable seems to be at cross-purposes. 'Click heavy busy work' isn't a balance means used for most other effects.

Ironically, this was the exact argument used for FF/Sonic/Thermal/Cold shields being single target back in the day, and yet they 'fixed' all those buffs. Buffs which are way more powerful than anti-mez.

mez is used a lot in 1 star+ content.  "Fixing" this would jigger the math on all that

[Seldom]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

mez is used a lot in 1 star+ content.  "Fixing" this would jigger the math on all that

Call me nutso, but isn't that the perfect place to make these powers work better? Make often-skipped powers a place to shine? Anti-mez just lets the few that are vulnerable to have a chance to react, it doesn't do anything but that. It doesn't make them untouchablle or something. (*cough*likeBARRIER*cough*) There's no issues with defense buffs making damage spike power miss, debuffs making bosses die faster, but somehow anti-control weakening control is where the game breaks?

If these usually skipped, spammy to use powers need balance, please do so, but make them also fun and rewarding to use. Balance by annoyance in a game meant to be fun is NOT good balance. If Nukes were overperforming, would it make sense for them to be balanced via (A) endurance cost, recharge, or damage values, or (B) a button mashing mini-game?

Edited August 27 by Seldom

[Doomguide2005]

7 hours ago, macskull said:

Dark, Cold, Storm, Sonic, Force Fields, Traps, Elec, and Trick Arrow also have AoE mez protection in some form or another.

Guess I did say AoE but seriously while both Steamy Mist and Cloak of Darkness technically have protection against a singular mez they aren't what they are truly used for.  I mean if you want to go that route everyone can get a large "anti-mez" power by taking Tactics.  Guess it depends on how many targets, duration and large an area they would cover for how much they would reduce the desire to use Clarion and if that would be too far.  Mind you I have run just about every single Empath pairing the game offers (and most of them to 50), as well as most of the rest you listed so i definitely get where @Seldomis coming from.  I guess you could even say those powers and Clarion bring into question why effecting more than one target is even an issue for the ally targeted anti-mez.

[Frostmoon]

Yeah, I agree with Seldom here. I get that they're meant to be single-target "welcome back to the battle!" powers, but they're just really awkward and finicky to properly use. I recently respec'd out of Clear Mind on my Empathy / Psychic Defender because it's not worth it as a power; I do still have Clarity on my Sonic / Sonic Corruptor and Thaw on my Water / Thermal Corruptor, but I should probably swap them out.

[Snarky]

6 hours ago, Seldom said:

Call me nutso, but isn't that the perfect place to make these powers work better? Make often-skipped powers a place to shine? Anti-mez just lets the few that are vulnerable to have a chance to react, it doesn't do anything but that. It doesn't make them untouchablle or something. (*cough*likeBARRIER*cough*) There's no issues with defense buffs making damage spike power miss, debuffs making bosses die faster, but somehow anti-control weakening control is where the game breaks?

If these usually skipped, spammy to use powers need balance, please do so, but make them also fun and rewarding to use. Balance by annoyance in a game meant to be fun is NOT good balance. If Nukes were overperforming, would it make sense for them to be balanced via (A) endurance cost, recharge, or damage values, or (B) a button mashing mini-game?

maybe.  i am just saying it would make a real change to the environment all the new content was built in and calibrated to.  

 

maybe that is better.  maybe it would be an "easy" button.

[Ukase]

Mez...it's not just for breakfast anymore. Hmm...catchy, but hardly a useful comment. Sorry. 

So, my thoughts are many, but on this topic: 

Yes, single target status protection powers like Clear Mind...a little annoying to have to cast them on each character instead of just spamming once. I play a lot of blasters. Always have. I used to use the defensive amplifiers so I wouldn't have to deal with 95% of the mez in game. And then...I found a method to mostly mitigate it. With the build. 

I'm playing a fire/Atomic blaster right now, and it's quite interesting to. I don't get held that much, but when I do, I just ignore it and use the two attacks I have...but oddly, because of the sustain, the holds never last more than the time of one of those two powers. Like 2 seconds at the most. I'm sure I can't do this with every blaster, but so far, the solution works for me. The only defeats have been in the Abyss for the required debt badge to get High Pain Threshold accolade. 

I think Mez NEEDS to be a pain in the ischial tuberosity. (Like that? It's my new 10 dollar synonym for butt) If the mez is easily mitigated, the npcs genuinely have no chance. They just don't. Mez is the only thing in game that ever gives my blasters any real trouble. I can take inspirations, but invariably, they run out, because in longer missions, the breakfrees don't drop as often as the others. Just my opinion, but I think having mez being annoying is crucial to the game. Otherwise, blasters would be the ONLY thing I'd ever play. 

[Seldom]

5 hours ago, Ukase said:

I think Mez NEEDS to be a pain in the ischial tuberosity. (Like that? It's my new 10 dollar synonym for butt) If the mez is easily mitigated, the npcs genuinely have no chance. They just don't. Mez is the only thing in game that ever gives my blasters any real trouble. I can take inspirations, but invariably, they run out, because in longer missions, the breakfrees don't drop as often as the others. Just my opinion, but I think having mez being annoying is crucial to the game. Otherwise, blasters would be the ONLY thing I'd ever play. 

 

I don't disagree.
I'm just talking about the existing constantly available anti-mez powers available right now.
Those won't help your solo blaster right now, but will if you team with a empathy/thermal/poison/etc. friendo. That same friendo who has to re-apply the same buff every 60-90 seconds, but it's spammable every 4 seconds.
It's the latter part I don't get. I'd be fine if the things had a 12+ second recharge if they lasted 240 seconds, or didn't require me to select every player in a large team every minute to keep the things up. This isn't a skill issue, this is a clicks per minute tax, something I can't think of any other buffs needing.

I've heard it said that the sign of a good support is how many players have their Clear mind-type buffs are kept up. I disagree, since most sets have way more useful attacks/buffs/debuffs they could be using their time and attention on, but even selecting this power makes me want to keep the anti-mez up, because as mentioned, it does have value to my blaster/defender/mastermind/controller type teammates. So the game seems to reward a player who takes anti-mez powers with busywork, (ESPECIALLY on big teams) sometimes to the detriment of their other abilities. No other buff powers currently seem to balance around just making the player tired of using the power they picked..

TLDR: Short recharge, short duration buffs are 'Permanent' in all but name. If taken that way, can they be applied more conveniently to make using these pseudo-permanent buffs in a less intrusive way to the rest of my support character's powers and play experience? Longer duration? More targets hit per buff? I'm not sure I care HOW, I'd just like the power I picked to be both effective and NOT unfun to use.

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, Seldom said:

Those won't help your solo blaster right now, but will if you team with a empathy/thermal/poison/etc. friendo. That same friendo who has to re-apply the same buff every 60-90 seconds, but it's spammable every 4 seconds.
It's the latter part I don't get. I'd be fine if the things had a 12+ second recharge if they lasted 240 seconds, or didn't require me to select every player in a large team every minute to keep the things up. This isn't a skill issue, this is a clicks per minute tax, something I can't think of any other buffs needing.

The buffs last 90 seconds. You don't need to be constantly applying them. Even with a 4 second recharge. And some team members can simply be ignored for anti-mez buffing. The melee classes and Sentinels can be ignored for applying anti-mez buffs unless they actually get mezzed. Most times, they won't be because enemies won't be stacking enough mez on them to actually get through their mez protection, so you can just ignore them until something happens where they need it. And if other team members are ranged, encourage them to stay at a 'safe' distance to fight from. If you have a Tanker or Brute, the characters hanging back at range will need anti-mez buffs much less frequently.

[DrRocket]

On 8/25/2024 at 9:12 PM, Snarky said:

I am guessing (and it is a guess) that mez is meant to be tough to solve.  If a defender could anti mez an entire team constantly it could change a lot of high end builds and playstyles. 

But you would have to have Defender present for that, and then be willing to pick the power to do that. Not so automatic, my defenders only stock powers that can affect them and the team, but if they are excluded, the power is not acquired, and something useful to defender is instead acquired

[Snarky]

9 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

But you would have to have Defender present for that, and then be willing to pick the power to do that. Not so automatic, my defenders only stock powers that can affect them and the team, but if they are excluded, the power is not acquired, and something useful to defender is instead acquired

yeah.  this spur of the conversation is more or less about 1-4 star content and the usefulness of 7 corr and 1 tank.  If a defender could antimez the entire team constantly (while the whole team rotates barrier applications) it might (MIGHT) be a very sweet spot to be in.  

[biostem]

Well, sets like forcefield have dispersion bubble as kind of their schtick - making team/AoE mez protection too accessible devalues that.  I mean, there are ATs with mez protection and tools to draw attention off of their teammates for a reason...

[arcane]

I could get on board with a modest duration increase, but I can’t get on board with turning single targets into AoE’s for reasons others have already covered well.

[DrRocket]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

Well, sets like forcefield have dispersion bubble as kind of their schtick - making team/AoE mez protection too accessible devalues that.  I mean, there are ATs with mez protection and tools to draw attention off of their teammates for a reason...

You were right, until the devs decided the up the challenge, mostly at the support types, by severely limiting their taunt aggroe, and then there is the issue of those melee who even bother to slot taunt, and those who did -  even use it in such a manner. How often you hear comments such as "I wish the tank would know how to use taunt". The major problem is that it is easy for melee types immune to Status Effect to say that support don't need it because of them, that is in a way arrogant to say. Why not remove the Status effect protection from the melee, and make "them" dependent on the support to provide for their needs? As it is the other way, as you just described, I bet you are likely offended at my merely saying that.

 

Also during Live days, the excuse the devs had for giving melee status protection was they had to go in, which was very acceptable. And not giving support any status effect protection, because in those days, there were no ranged status effects, which could be arguably agreed to. But look at today, that environment certainly does not exist, just about all minions and above have a ranged status effect, often AOE, and oh boy do the spam them.

 

Lately it seems the devs concept of increased challenge, is to increase even more Status Effect attacks on support, thus killing them faster and now the melee is challenged because they have no support. In some star content, the baddies have an un-resistable and auto hit teleport (feels like cheating to me) to them (so much for range) and drop in an intense defense debuff field (got to rub salt in the wound) and then (of course) subject their victim with spam holds from many different baddies; and then you are surprised they died almost instantly? There are those melee that arrogantly say to the unlucky support zap, learn to play the game, but truthfully what is there to learn from completely arbitrary activities?

 

I had proposed in the past to give support types some status effect protection, since range can help in some very minor and inconsistent way and melee may do their job of protecting them (not something to take to the bank), so I noticed a trend as such Tank 12 protection, scrapper 8 protection, thus I suggest support 4 protection; it is something - not as dramatic as the tank or as solid as a scrapper. But at least a compensation for the abusive use of holds.

 

Just something to think about...

 

Once more if you disagree, give me detailed reasons so I may learn from your experience and knowledge