The Council change was not good

[Ukase]

It's not lost on me that there's a disconnect between the content I play and the path many others take. 

It's none of my business, but I will ask anyway: 

Why are you doing radios? There's no reward for it, beyond the same rewards that story arcs offer. And, story arcs offer reward merits, and possibly a badge or two. All of your troubles could have been avoided if you'd just done a story arc instead. 

Unai Kemen, ever heard of him? He's a contact in PI with a lot of missions, and even has a few council outdoor maps. And guess what - they're old world council. Not a lore expert, but I don't think they're even from the same world as Paragon City. None of that lycanthrope behavior with those council! 

Now, it's not lost on me that sometimes I have to look for story arcs to do if I don't want to repeat myself. Sometimes, I have to change alignment. And sometimes, I have to exemplar and use Ouro. Still - it's plenty to keep me busy until I figure out what my next character is going to be. 

Don't do radios. It isn't a good idea. It is rarely even a neutral idea. It has NEVER been a good idea, except perhaps on retail at level 5 when you wanted a jet pack before you turned level 14 and could get a legit travel power. 

Now, I grasp that some folks like doing radios because..well, reasons. The missions are in the same zone, and some folks actually enjoy the safeguard missions and the side missions for various temp powers. I do get that. But, for me, those temp powers are never worth the rewards, and if I ever want them, I just visit Agent Hassell and skip the stupid, putrid, merit-less radio missions and go right to the safeguards. 

Why is it do you think we have an Agent Hassell or a Lord Schweinzer anyway? To avoid the very pointless radio and paper missions! Just stop it already, and do story arcs and get Reward Merits! If you're going to do repetitive content, you might as well do story arcs through ouro, and then your entire team gets paid. Or do them solo and you get paid. 

Radios? We don't need no stinkin' radios! 

[Uun]

3 hours ago, Ukase said:

Don't do radios. It isn't a good idea.

THIS

 

There's a metric crap ton of content you can run that isn't Council. I solo a fair amount and never run Council missions unless they're part of another faction's arc. (I find Council boring. I didn't run Council missions before the change either.)

[tidge]

4 hours ago, Ukase said:

Why are you doing radios? There's no reward for it, beyond the same rewards that story arcs offer. And, story arcs offer reward merits, and possibly a badge or two. All of your troubles could have been avoided if you'd just done a story arc instead.

 

I also tend to avoid radio missions, except "at level" when I have a character that wants the Mayhem/Safeguard goodies. I used to speed-run level 50 radios to unlock Hassell, but some recent changes to "who counts as a villain defeat" have made this unlock a lot more organic (and easier) for me.

 

Another good alternative to Radio missions are the alignment tips, which can be run in zones other than level 50 zones (for level 50 characters).

 

I don't always like to run Ouro arcs, because if I start one solo then I'm locked into it until completion, unless I simply drop it of course.

[DocBeard]

Quote

The Council changes didn't really seem to do much to change the "everyone is running 54x8 Council radios in PI" problem (if you consider that a problem, anyways). Teams that were steamrolling them before are still steamrolling them now, marginal teams are probably having a bit more difficulty, and soloists without lots of CC are just finding them annoying. The CoT changes are the same way, and so were the Crey changes before these.

 

So here's a question. What would you (or anyone in the thread of course) like the Council to look like? Like there's a clear push by the Devs to make the classic villain groups more challenging and mechanically diverse in the endgame while working around the fact that they don't have studio resources to do so. If the changes aren't working what do you think would make these groups pop?

I know my general solution is "more writing".  The Circle especially could use a cool very recognizable archvillain for us to hate. Baron Zoria has a great name and a great hook as a magical con artist who unleashed this band of angry ghosts on the world. Focusing on him as the new blood the Circle needs to adapt to this frightening modern age while he cons demon princes and dark gods could be very interesting, especially contrasted with the High Circle's bronze age conservatism. Having the cave maps be less of a slog would also be nice but I don't know if that's reasonable at this date.

 

I think the Council's doing fine story wise, with the Center maybe needing a new costume but in general but otherwise being a lot of fun as a charisma based villain opposite his fellow strongman fascists Requiem and Recluse. I think Requiem gets the worst off here because even visually he's so similar to Recluse and Stefan ate his relationship with Statesman. No one knowing which nazi archvillains are working for the Council or 5th Column at any time is a little weird but the new focus on the Council being the science freaks who keep snorting alien essence helps separate them from the 5th column. None of which helps mechanically but what can you do.

 

I'm not into the proposed Manticore and Crey team up idea but maybe the writing can turn me around on it. In general I think Crey is very distinct and all they need is their big Paragon Protectors endgame to have a little more zazz. Maybe bring Doctor Null on as an archvillain like the old bible suggested. Mechanically I'm never not happy hitting these dudes. The Crey suits in Brickstown randomly screaming, "I HAVE NO SOUL! I WANT MY MIND BACK!" and going berserk are great and generally how I want Crey content to look and feel.

[Rudra]

27 minutes ago, DocBeard said:

Baron Zoria has a great name and a great hook as a magical con artist who unleashed this band of angry ghosts on the world. Focusing on him as the new blood the Circle needs to adapt to this frightening modern age while he cons demon princes and dark gods could be very interesting, especially contrasted with the High Circle's bronze age conservatism.

I may be mistaken, but don't you find out that "Baron Zoria" isn't? I swear there is a mission where you go through what amounts to a Circle prison with souls in crystals designed to torment the spirits within, and the actual Baron Zoria is in one of those crystals, where he has been trapped and driven to or nearly to madness for the past 100 years.

 

27 minutes ago, DocBeard said:

So here's a question. What would you (or anyone in the thread of course) like the Council to look like?

What the people calling out that the Council changes are bad seem to want is to have an enemy faction that they can fight at no risk to themselves. They are even decrying things the Council has done since Live (edit: specifically the werewolf transformations) as being a bad thing that got added in the update that beefed up the Council.

 

Edited October 4 by Rudra

[Seed22]

12 hours ago, Ukase said:

Don't do radios. It isn't a good idea

I used to hop in and do a few radios then hop off. It worked well for that, but ultimately wasn’t rewarding. It’s not meant to be, the XP and potential defeat badges was the reward. And mostly the quick mindless XP.

 

I can’t find it in me to stay logged in to CoH, whenever I do log in, for longer than 20 minutes. Most everything I’ve already done too many times to count.

 

But radios was always that fun bite sized 5 minute adventure that really appealed to me. Now I have roguelites so I don’t need it anymore but you could say it was roguelite esque in that it was a short run. 
 

Point being, I wouldn’t knock radios. They have merit as quick romps with okay XP. 

[Andreah]

16 hours ago, Ukase said:

Why are you doing radios?

I prefer radios over story/contact content by a huge margin. 

 

The story writing is always the same too. The few that are new each time are new only once; and if they have variant mechanics, I don't find those mechanics interesting-- in fact, I find them a hinderance to enjoyment.

 

In regard to radios, I feel they strip away the irrelevancies the game layers on things and offers me a more blank slate for my play time -- we're doing the everyday work for the police to keep the city functioning; I can do a lot with that in my personal RP, and especially when my teams are RP (I run about half and half open and RP teams).

 

The mechanical interest I have is better suited to radios as well, because it has very little to do with the content, the maps, the story elements, or even the enemy -- it's about how my team, usually a mixed level pick-up group, can approach and solve the combat challenge. This is fresh to me, every time, even in every radio. 

 

For the people who join my radio teams, they're getting a (I hope) competently run team experience, combatting enemies at a challenge level that suits the group, and at a speed in-map and between maps that feels satisfying for those who're seeking drops or experience. They can drop in at any point, stay as long as they want, and there's nothing left undone or unfinished, or for that matter, spoiled, if they intend to do stories themselves.

 

Players who join sometimes tell me afterwards it was one of the most fun experiences they've had in the game. 

 

IMO, no story content compares.

 

Edited October 5 by Andreah

[Andreah]

For my story content, I play custom AE arcs along with my RP supergroup. These are new and unique every time, and fit into a larger arc out storytellers craft and create specifically for us in our shared canon.

 

I almost never play solo. If I am playing alone, I'm specifically after a badge, testing mechanics, or something of that nature.

[FupDup]

As a bit of a sidebar, I do wish that bank missions gave merit rewards upon completion, at least for the radio/paper-assigned ones. The quick ones you get from special contacts would be exempt of course. 

[Andreah]

1 hour ago, FupDup said:

As a bit of a sidebar, I do wish that bank missions gave merit rewards upon completion, at least for the radio/paper-assigned ones. The quick ones you get from special contacts would be exempt of course. 

I could see those giving a merit if you defeated the main bank robber villain and at least one side mission.

[Wavicle]

I like the changes to the Council.

But I agree that it should not spawn bosses if you're set to no bosses.

[tidge]

On 10/4/2024 at 3:30 PM, DocBeard said:

 

So here's a question. What would you (or anyone in the thread of course) like the Council to look like? If the changes aren't working what do you think would make these groups pop?

I know my general solution is "more writing". 

 

I HAVE COME FROM THE FUTURE TO WARN YOU!

 

THE COUNCIL CHANGES WERE REVERTED!

 

BUT NOW EVERY TIME A COUNCIL BOSS DIES, THERE IS A 3 MINUTE CUT SCENE!!!!!

[Andreah]

11 minutes ago, tidge said:

BUT NOW EVERY TIME A COUNCIL BOSS DIES, THERE IS A 3 MINUTE CUT SCENE!!!!!

The horror!

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

I HAVE COME FROM THE FUTURE TO WARN YOU!

 

THE COUNCIL CHANGES WERE REVERTED!

 

BUT NOW EVERY TIME A COUNCIL BOSS DIES, THERE IS A 3 MINUTE CUT SCENE!!!!!

[JKCarrier]

Say, does this "Council randomly turning into Werewolves" thing only happen at certain levels? Because I just took my lvl 33 Scrapper through Jose Escalante's Council arc, and I didn't see it happen once. The Galaxies weren't rezzing, either.

[PoptartsNinja]

At levels where you fight wolves, any non-wolf boss or LT could turn into a wolf of equivalent type. IIRC some story missions this won't happen because the Wolves are locked out for plot reasons; and to my knowledge the Council Ascendants can never wolf out.

 

At level 40+, Galaxies get Nictus powers and can self rez.

[General Idiot]

What's funny to me is the Council mobs that turn into werewolves at low health were already a thing prior to the revamp they got. And they've always turned into a werewolf of higher rank too. The only change was extending them up to 50, if I remember rightly.

 

If anything, the only change I'd make to them as they are now is make them turn into same rank werewolves, or at least have the lieutenants respect the no solo bosses difficulty setting and not spawn boss rank werewolves when it's enabled.

[Rudra]

7 hours ago, General Idiot said:

What's funny to me is the Council mobs that turn into werewolves at low health were already a thing prior to the revamp they got. And they've always turned into a werewolf of higher rank too. The only change was extending them up to 50, if I remember rightly.

 

If anything, the only change I'd make to them as they are now is make them turn into same rank werewolves, or at least have the lieutenants respect the no solo bosses difficulty setting and not spawn boss rank werewolves when it's enabled.

I have never encountered a Council mob turning into a higher rank werewolf unless I was playing with bosses turned off and the lieutenant in question that wolfed out was an Archon. (So, a boss. Just downgraded for the difficulty setting. And like I've previously stated, getting boss rank mobs on missions where you have bosses turned off happens with other factions too. Like the Circle of Thorns where the portals in the portal room can sometimes spawn a boss Demon Lord even if bosses are turned off. It seems that any bosses that are not initially part of the mission map [final room enemy, ambush, normal mid-mission triggered spawn, or other], but are instead spawned by something after the mission/map is generated, ignores the boss settings.)

 

(Edit: I don't remember the group level ranges, but I do remember Nacht and Raserei forces always had a chance to wolf out. Also, the Eclipse Vampyri Archon (or was it Dark Vampyri Archon? I can't remember what the first word in their name was) would turn into a War Wolf when near death as well. And you could always find yourself fighting those from level 45 on.)

 

Edited October 7 by Rudra

[Yomo Kimyata]

There are people, plenty of them I believe, who just like to chill out, maybe partake in their coping mechanism of choice, and just peacefully run some missions as they unwind from their day.  I respect that.

 

I see that as a possible purpose for paper missions — you are under no stress to accomplish X Y or Z and it’s not overly difficult.  Much like farming.

 

I get why the PTB have upgraded the difficulty, it does have a big negative effect on solo play 35-49.  But six months from now we will have forgotten all about it.

[Kaika]

I think my issue was that council were everyone's "Super chill, brain off, thoughts are forbidden" group that was easily accessible in bulk, and now while they aren't really all too difficult, they are extremely annoying. The shear bulk of galaxy is just... annoying and having them both res and heal off dead bodies almost make it feels like they are the exact opposite now. They are designed to be extremely annoying to kill instead of before where they were very easy. Add to this the Warwolf transformations which is basically another res, into another extremely bulky boss and the group is just a MASSIVE slog to fight. It almost feels like it was done as a punishment "Oh you like farming these guys because they are easy to kill, now they take a decade to kill, take that!" from the devs, I know this isn't the case (at least I hope so) but it kinda feels that way. God forbid you end up with a full galaxy group and are there all day playing wack-a-mole with bosses with like 50% res to all or something crazy.

 

When it was first released I did really like it since the group is legitimately far more interesting to fight now, but honestly, I would REALLY be happy if they did another pass and dialed their survivabilty a notch or 5. The better variety, and harder power sets they have now are more then enough, large amounts of negative damage and To-Hit buffs can make them surprisingly scary in some situations, not enough that they are usually scary, but it can sometimes add up, which is already WAY better then their old iteration. All this stacking resistance, heals and self reses just make them incredibly annoying and a slog to fight, at this point I avoid radio missions entirely now if I'm trying to relax, especially solo.

 

So I wouldn't want the changes reverted just... give it another pass and make them less of a annoying slog, please.

Edited October 7 by Kaika

[Owl Girl]

can anyone speak to the difficulty of Council radio missions set to -1? i haven't personally tried it, but how much of a time sink can it really be??

[Wavicle]

Council over 35, now, is no harder than other high level enemies (Carnies, Malta, etc). They may SEEM harder the first couple of times you face the new mobs, but once you're used to them they are no harder than other mobs of that level. Council over 35 BEFORE was Too Easy compared to other groups the same level.

 

That said, again, No Bosses ought to mean No Bosses, for sure.

[WhiteNightingale]

On 10/3/2024 at 4:25 PM, jthequietone said:

The new Council are just... Less fun. It makes the game more of a chore and solo leveling was already a chore. 

 

One of the best things about CoH (and WoW back in the day) was the promise that you could level your way to 50 solo if you so wished, and you didn't need to do obsessive grinding. The best MMOs in the market discarded "hAaAaRdCoRe" design mentality, because people no longer have time for "hardcore."

 

I don't care for hardcore, or forced trinity gaming either.

[Wavicle]

You can absolutely still solo your way to 50, in fact this is how I level most of my toons. That hasn't changed, and outside of the new Hard Mode content, the flexibility of being able to make successful teams with almost any mix of ATs has also not changed.

 

I think some people are forgetting how ridiculously easy the Council used to be, or not forgetting but ignoring that they were TOO easy. These changes simply bring them up to par with other groups at high levels.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, WhiteNightingale said:

 

One of the best things about CoH (and WoW back in the day) was the promise that you could level your way to 50 solo if you so wished, and you didn't need to do obsessive grinding. The best MMOs in the market discarded "hAaAaRdCoRe" design mentality, because people no longer have time for "hardcore."

 

I don't care for hardcore, or forced trinity gaming either.

So are you saying you can't level to 50 solo?! And without 'obsessive grinding'? Because if that is the case, I'm going to call you a liar.