The Council change was not good

[WhiteNightingale]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So are you saying you can't level to 50 solo?! And without 'obsessive grinding'? Because if that is the case, I'm going to call you a liar.

 

Please don't put words in my mouth that have nothing to do with what I said. In two threads you have moved from making bad arguments to arguing in bad faith. Stop that.

 

(Granted, with the concealment nerf and the ongoing shift to forced trinity and haaardcore, this worst-case scenario may eventually become the case).

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, WhiteNightingale said:

ongoing shift to forced trinity

 

This is an idea that has been asserted multiple times now with nothing backing it up. What forced trinity are you actually talking about?

[WhiteNightingale]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

This is an idea that has been asserted multiple times now with nothing backing it up. What forced trinity are you actually talking about?

 

Solo-hostility? (see THIS THREAD), all factions past lvl 30 now having the holds/blinds/stun trifecta (which was the specific providence of Arachnos and Longbow)? Concealment nerfs. Next time you're going to deny someone's point, please do it in a less disingenious way, preferably with actual evidence to the contrary rather than just saying "nuh-uh."

[Wavicle]

Just now, WhiteNightingale said:

 

Solo-hostility? (see THIS THREAD), all factions past lvl 30 now having the holds/blinds/stun trifecta (which was the specific providence of Arachnos and Longbow)? Concealment nerfs. Next time you're going to deny someone's point, please do it in a less disingenious way, preferably with actual evidence to the contrary rather than just saying "nuh-uh."

 

No, that's not how it works. The person making the assertion needs the evidence.

 

Like I said, the Council have been brought up to the same level everything else was at before, which I see you agree with here. That is how it SHOULD be. There should NEVER have been an enemy group that was just easier than all the others at the high level. And I still solo them all the time.

 

None of that, whether or not we agree it is as it should be, forces any sort of trinity anything. It does force you to have gotten stronger as you levelled, and to learn tactics, or accumulate resources, to overcome such obstacles.

[Wavicle]

If anyone can supply a justification for the existence of an enemy group that doesn't ever get any harder after level 30, I'd like to see it.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, WhiteNightingale said:

 

Please don't put words in my mouth that have nothing to do with what I said. In two threads you have moved from making bad arguments to arguing in bad faith. Stop that.

 

(Granted, with the concealment nerf and the ongoing shift to forced trinity and haaardcore, this worst-case scenario may eventually become the case).

 

I'm not putting words in your mouth. You posted:

1 hour ago, WhiteNightingale said:

 

One of the best things about CoH (and WoW back in the day) was the promise that you could level your way to 50 solo if you so wished, and you didn't need to do obsessive grinding. The best MMOs in the market discarded "hAaAaRdCoRe" design mentality, because people no longer have time for "hardcore."

 

I don't care for hardcore, or forced trinity gaming either.

"Was the promise". Past tense. "You didn't need to do obsessive grinding." Past tense. "The best MMOs in the market discarded "hAaAaRdCoRe" design mentality, because people no longer have time for "hardcore"." A statement that seems disconnected from the thread unless the intent is to state that CoX has gone "hardcore" and players don't have time for it.

 

 

To which I asked:

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

So are you saying you can't level to 50 solo?! And without 'obsessive grinding'? Because if that is the case, I'm going to call you a liar.

 

Because your comment implies that CoX no longer has the promise of being able to level your way to 50 solo if you wished. It is written right there in your post. If that was not your intent, then you need to clear that up. I am not a mind reader. All I can do is read others' posts and respond to them.

 

Further, CoX has not gone "hardcore". You have to choose to up your difficulty to get to "hardcore". Neither is CoX forcing any trinity gaming either. Players, like me, are solo leveling to 50 and even full incarnate status just fine.

 

Also, nowhere in this thread did I make an argument against the OP. I stated corrections about things posted in this thread I know are wrong are not correct. I stated a summary of what those saying the Council changes are bad seem to want: an enemy faction they can steamroll safely without effort. I even went so far as to test some of your claims to see what was going on, and then I reported the results of that test: The level 54 Galaxy Archon died as quickly as any other level 54 boss my SS/Willpower Brute has fought and only dropped my health by half. So please, show me where I made any bad faith arguments. And while we're at it, show us how trinity gaming is being forced on players. Or how the game has gone "hardcore". Or any other claim you have made in this thread so far.

 

Edit: Oh, and by the way? Just to be clear? NOW I am opposed to the OP's claim. (You're not even the OP's author, but your defense of it has convinced me the OP is very much in error.)

 

Edited October 8 by Rudra

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, WhiteNightingale said:

 

Solo-hostility? (see THIS THREAD), all factions past lvl 30 now having the holds/blinds/stun trifecta (which was the specific providence of Arachnos and Longbow)? Concealment nerfs. Next time you're going to deny someone's point, please do it in a less disingenious way, preferably with actual evidence to the contrary rather than just saying "nuh-uh."

Goldbrickers don't get holds until level 40, not 30, and don't get blinds.

IDF have no blinds.

Nemesis have no holds or blinds.

 

I'm sure there are others, but I don't feel like digging through all the available high level factions,

[UltraAlt]

On 10/3/2024 at 6:25 PM, jthequietone said:

typical, normal solo radios

 

What are your notoriety settings for this "typical, normal solo radios"?

 

Mine would be +2, x2 into the 30s and probably +3, x2 by the 40.

[Shin Magmus]

On 10/3/2024 at 9:18 PM, jthequietone said:

 

That's not fun. The Council change made what was extensively already a chore, solo leveling, into just a hot mess. If I wanted something harder, I had options, but now I just feel like I look at the choices of which villain group in a radio mission and go "would you like this to be obnoxious and annoying... or annoying and obnoxious" 

 

After years of playing and happily doing radio missions to my hearts content while I listened to music, chatted with people, or had a queue of story/lore videos running... It's just not fun to deal with that. 

     "There's no longer a disproportionately piss-easy option available, for me to turn my brain off and win for free, and that's terrible."  It seems like NuCouncil are working as intended by bringing the difficulty up to that of the other available options. 

 

     I recommend that people who complain (constantly) about NuCouncil read the patch notes for when they were released as to why: this is a choice of mission enemy faction that is supposed to have parity with Carnies and Arachnos.  If solo leveling is that much of a chore for you, the Tunnel Witch AE mission is right there...

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

There's been a few threads of players indicating their dislike of "NuCouncil" as far back as during beta testing and still going on.  And just as many people who like the added difficulty as well as a large group who aren't troubled by the change but isn't something they wanted.

 

I hate to keep on bringing up Goldilocks and the three Bears . . . actually, I don't hate it.  Goldilocks kept trying different things until she found what was "just right" for her.  What's implied, but not really discussed much, is that the bed that was too hard for Goldie was "just right" for Papa Bear and the bed that was too soft for her was perfect for Mama Bear. 

 

You just have to keep looking to find what is right for you.

 

As to getting boss transformations when set at no bosses +0/*1 solo, I have asked if that is working as intended or a bug.

 

EDIT:  So this is working as intended.  The "transformation" is really just a summon power not unlike player ones that summon pets.  That Lt. that summoned the boss is really a downgraded boss, but his power kit remains the same.  If you changed it to summon a Lt. then the Boss version would also summon a Lt., which is not intended.  Similar results happen with Redcaps and Malta Titans.  So unfortunately, this is not something that can be easily changed, if it can be changed at all.

Edited October 10 by GM_GooglyMoogly

[Seed22]

NuCouncil to me is...okay. I mean, the spongy galaxies is meh, but otherwise they're not some horribad group to be lamented. I still solo them at +1x8 on the few 50s I still do play, so nothing besides some tedium has changed for me.

 

It sucks that a mindless group for people looking to relax got changed, I get that, but it's not changed so that it's impossible to really get into a rhythm with. You just now might have to use insp.

[JKCarrier]

9 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

 I recommend that people who complain (constantly) about NuCouncil read the patch notes for when they were released as to why

I looked through the patch notes, and the accompanying discussion thread, and couldn't find any official word on the motivation for the changes. Was there some specific problem that was occurring due to the Council being "weaker" than some other faction (I personally never noticed this alleged discrepancy)?

[Super Atom]

🌭

[Psyonico]

3 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

As to getting boss transformations when set at no bosses +0/*1 solo, I have asked if that is working as intended or a bug.

I would love to get an answer on this.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

2 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I would love to get an answer on this.

 

Scroll back up.  

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

EDIT:  So this is working as intended.  The "transformation" is really just a summon power not unlike player ones that summon pets.  That Lt. that summoned the boss is really a downgraded boss, but his power kit remains the same.  If you changed it to summon a Lt. than the Boss version would also summon a Lt., which is not intended.  Similar results happen with Redcaps and Malta Titans.  So unfortunately, this is not something that can be easily changed, if it can be changed at all.

 

That's a serious problem.

 

I would suggest then that this SHOULD be changed. Such mobs should not appear when on No Bosses.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

That's a serious problem.

 

I would suggest then that this SHOULD be changed. Such mobs should not appear when on No Bosses.

Or make use of the available options. Use a smaller team size setting when soloing so you aren't fighting downgraded bosses constantly, use any mezzes you may have so they can't transform, make use of your KB/KD powers to keep them from being able to activate their transformation. This isn't anything new. So why is it now a serious problem when it has been going on since Live?

 

Edit: What about Malta Hercules Titans merging into bosses despite the No Bosses option turned on? I don't hear any complaints about them.

 

Edited October 10 by Rudra

[Glacier Peak]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

What about Malta Hercules Titans merging into bosses despite the No Bosses option turned on? I don't hear any complaints about them.

In this same vein, Natterlings can combine in to a Lieutenant rank enemy. 

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

In this same vein, Natterlings can combine in to a Lieutenant rank enemy. 

Precisely, there are enemies that can become tougher when they take too much damage and haven't been defeated. There are maps that can spawn bosses even with No Bosses turned on, because they weren't part of the map's initial spawn generation. Hells, you can encounter bosses, including Council bosses, that were placed at map generation when the No Bosses flag is being applied, simply because they downgraded to bosses. (That mission in Port Oakes with the Vampyri that was smuggled into Port Oakes comes to mind.) I haven't heard any complaints about any of this until people started complaining about the Council after they got reworked. (And I still haven't heard any complaints about enemies upgrading to bosses mid-fight except for Council War Wolves.) And the biggest complaint is for something the Council (and 5th Column) have always done. But now, suddenly, it is a serious problem? Now, suddenly, it isn't fair? How does that make any sense at all? If players are going to complain about the rework the Council got, then they should be complaining about the rework. Not things that they seemed to be perfectly fine with before the rework.

 

Take the OP for instance:

On 10/3/2024 at 1:18 PM, jthequietone said:

If it had just been at 50, fair enough, but when you're a level 40-something blaster and doing content that was meant for you, like a solo radio mission set to solo difficulty type settings and you randomly get a boss werewolf that is an absolute health sponge and can boulder throw murder you?

 

That's not fun. The Council change made what was extensively already a chore, solo leveling, into just a hot mess. If I wanted something harder, I had options, but now I just feel like I look at the choices of which villain group in a radio mission and go "would you like this to be obnoxious and annoying... or annoying and obnoxious" 

 

After years of playing and happily doing radio missions to my hearts content while I listened to music, chatted with people, or had a queue of story/lore videos running... It's just not fun to deal with that. 

The author claims that solo leveling is a chore and then turns around and says that (s)he/they were solo leveling with Council while not even paying attention to the game. Seriously? This isn't an idler game. That is the OP's complaint? That the game no longer plays like an idler that can be safely ignored while doing other things the author seems to enjoy more? The author can't watch a queue of videos while somehow still playing the game?

 

(Edit: As an aside? I still don't understand how the Council rework is stopping the author from being able to chat with people or listen to music while playing. My friends and I chat while playing on the regular. Even during combat at times. And how much attention do you need for your music while playing?)

 

Edited October 10 by Rudra

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

EDIT:  So this is working as intended.  The "transformation" is really just a summon power not unlike player ones that summon pets.  That Lt. that summoned the boss is really a downgraded boss, but his power kit remains the same.  If you changed it to summon a Lt. then the Boss version would also summon a Lt., which is not intended.  Similar results happen with Redcaps and Malta Titans.  So unfortunately, this is not something that can be easily changed, if it can be changed at all.

 

Rascals summon a Hooligan if No Bosses is active, they summon a Fiend if Yes Bosses is active.  I tested that five minutes ago in the first mission of Buck Salinger's arc, via Ouroboros.  I set the difficulty to +0/x3 so there'd be several minions in every spawn, set No Bosses on the first run, entered the mission and defeated enemies until a Rascal respawned.  It respawned as a Hooligan, a lieutenant.  Then I quit the TF, set Yes Bosses without changing anything else, went back to Ouroboros, picked up the story arc again, entered the mission and defeated enemies until a Rascal respawned.  It respawned as a Fiend, a boss.

 

I tested this again at +0/x8/No Bosses, just to see if the team size setting made any difference, and Rascal summons were Hooligans.

 

The Rascal summon is specifically listed on CoD as a lieutenant.  So clearly there is code to adjust the rank of summons, code which was functional for the Council summons prior to the redesign.

 

[Cobalt Arachne]

25 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Rascal respawned. It respawned as a Fiend, a boss.

This seems incorrect from what I'm seeing in the game's data; Red Cap transformations don't have any awareness for difficulty I can see, unless there's something hard coded that I'm unaware of.

How they work:

• 1 in 7 chance per spawn group that a single Rascal minion will have RedCaps.Minion_Transform.Transformation which always spawns RedCaps_RedCap_Transformed_Lt
• 1 in 7 chance per spawn group that a single Hooligan LT will have RedCaps.Lt_Transform.Transformation which always spawns RedCaps_RedCap_Transformed_Boss
• The transformed Red Cap cannot transform a second time, something exclusive to Snaptooth.

[Super Atom]

you think you can just do that cobalt, use game data and facts in a conversation? smh

 

council aren't hard to me, but they're hard for others. If it's causing enough of a stir, perhaps they should get another look. I see it all the time in game people complaining about the council being unfun. Synapse even found them unfun so... if its between easing back on their difficulty or appeasing the hardmode crowd, i think they should get dialed in.

 

though the middle ground answer already got suggested here: 

 

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

This seems incorrect from what I'm seeing in the game's data; Red Cap transformations don't have any awareness for difficulty I can see, unless there's something hard coded that I'm unaware of.

How they work:

• 1 in 7 chance per spawn group that a single Rascal minion will have RedCaps.Minion_Transform.Transformation which always spawns RedCaps_RedCap_Transformed_Lt
• 1 in 7 chance per spawn group that a single Hooligan LT will have RedCaps.Lt_Transform.Transformation which always spawns RedCaps_RedCap_Transformed_Boss
• The transformed Red Cap cannot transform a second time, something exclusive to Snaptooth.

 

So what you're saying is that you paid a Hooligan to disrupt my tests.

 

[Laucianna]

10 hours ago, Super Atom said:

If it's causing enough of a stir, perhaps they should get another look.

The problem is defining what is enough of a stir, the forums aren't a great place as people here will argue over everything (Myself included) but from what I have seen in game I have not heard a single complaint about the new council in anything I have done since the change.

The devs have limited time to work on things and although I don't personally think Council needed to be updated, that dev work is already done and made live, so I don't personally think the Devs should spend any more time doing a load of new coding for certain things because as in other difficulty posts; the player has the power to change it at any time if their AT struggles against an enemy type, x1/+0 is the base difficulty for this game not x4/+0 or x1/+2 and it is okay to play at base difficulty until you understand mechanics or slot your build 💛

[Super Atom]

3 hours ago, Laucianna said:

The problem is defining what is enough of a stir, the forums aren't a great place as people here will argue over everything (Myself included) but from what I have seen in game I have not heard a single complaint about the new council in anything I have done since the change.

The devs have limited time to work on things and although I don't personally think Council needed to be updated, that dev work is already done and made live, so I don't personally think the Devs should spend any more time doing a load of new coding for certain things because as in other difficulty posts; the player has the power to change it at any time if their AT struggles against an enemy type, x1/+0 is the base difficulty for this game not x4/+0 or x1/+2 and it is okay to play at base difficulty until you understand mechanics or slot your build 💛

 

Oh i don't really count the forums for any kind of measure of the player bases opinions or desires. Most of my experience with people commenting about council is based purely on in-game conversations on everlasting, well aside from Synapse not liking the changes either. You're not wrong though, IT is hard to gauge when enough complaints is actually enough. Sometimes it's if just ONE person says anything sometimes the whole forums and in-game can be on fire and nothing changes. Truly anyone's guess