New Dawn's Paragon AT is pretty sweet!

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

Every browser I use to go and check out this server's site lights up like DefCon 5. Push past and try to download the launcher and it too throws red flags everywhere. Are we sure these guys are 100% legit/safe?

 

The certificate being expired is a recent issue that I noticed today alos. Also concerning.

[Mopery]

Should name the AT "Beyonderer"

[biostem]

4 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Case in point I just made this on New Dawn. There are no limits to getting the same power again.

Just out of curiosity, what happens if you took some shield defense powers and tried using either dual pistols, dual blades, or any weapon that uses 2 hands?  

[Captain Fabulous]

4 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

Every browser I use to go and check out this server's site lights up like DefCon 5. Push past and try to download the launcher and it too throws red flags everywhere. Are we sure these guys are 100% legit/safe?

Their security certificate expired. The guy that runs it has been ill for the past few months from what I read. There is a discord channel you can pop into and bring it up if it's a concern.

[Captain Fabulous]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Just out of curiosity, what happens if you took some shield defense powers and tried using either dual pistols, dual blades, or any weapon that uses 2 hands?  

A lot of the weapons don't display properly on Paragons. I suspect the shield won't show.

[nzer]

13 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

And yeah I get that not everybody is going to enjoy the same experience. But this goes back to what I've said twice before in this thread, you have the flexibility to build your character however you wish. You don't have to take all the T9s, you don't have to take the best bits from three or four different armor sets. You don't have to necessarily build yourself to be omnipotent if that kind of play doesn't appeal to you. Which is no different than here. You don't have to use IO sets. That's a choice you make. Fundamentally it's no different.

 

You don't have to, but having the option at all would destroy the experience for a lot of people. The point of having the restrictions is that they're designed to create the kind of experience the devs want to create, and people play the game because they want to engage with that experience. Allowing people to define their own restrictions is, in essence, off-loading a gigantic part of the game's design from the devs onto the players. Most people aren't going to enjoy that; partly because they don't have any experience with game design and will not be able to craft an enjoyable experience for themselves, but mostly because they simply do not have any interest in doing it. Someone who wants to play City of Heroes wants to play City of Heroes, not design their own pseudo-City of Heroes and then play that.

 

This concept also just fundamentally does not work with multiplayer games at all. You might not take all the OP powers and make yourself omnipotent, but other people will, and they'll end up in your teams wrecking whatever experience you're trying to create for yourself. You can't even solve this by being more selective in who you team with, because everyone is going to have different ideas of what is and isn't appropriately balanced. In theory if this is restricted to just a single AT you could just refuse to invite the new AT to your teams and refuse to join teams with the new AT, but that adds a ton of friction to how most people play the game, and realistically most people are going to accept the OP characters anyway because they make missions faster even if it's less fun. People tend to be really, really bad about self-policing that sort of thing.

 

I'm not going to deny that there are some people for whom this is a fun concept that adds to the experience, but for the vast majority of people it's not, and I don't think it has any place in Homecoming, or really in any serious project where things like difficulty and balance are relevant in basically any way.

[FupDup]

3 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

A lot of the weapons don't display properly on Paragons. I suspect the shield won't show.

I had issues with it not displaying by default, but you can go back into the costume editor post-creation to force it to show. It's pretty janky though with very massive clipping issues and weapon FX coming out from the center of the player model instead of the weapon barrel (I briefly tried AR/Shield).

 

Hand blast sets seem to work okay with Shield, or at least a few Fire Blast powers did (I didn't test much). 

[Captain Fabulous]

4 hours ago, nzer said:

 

You don't have to, but having the option at all would destroy the experience for a lot of people. The point of having the restrictions is that they're designed to create the kind of experience the devs want to create, and people play the game because they want to engage with that experience. Allowing people to define their own restrictions is, in essence, off-loading a gigantic part of the game's design from the devs onto the players. Most people aren't going to enjoy that; partly because they don't have any experience with game design and will not be able to craft an enjoyable experience for themselves, but mostly because they simply do not have any interest in doing it. Someone who wants to play City of Heroes wants to play City of Heroes, not design their own pseudo-City of Heroes and then play that.

 

This concept also just fundamentally does not work with multiplayer games at all. You might not take all the OP powers and make yourself omnipotent, but other people will, and they'll end up in your teams wrecking whatever experience you're trying to create for yourself. You can't even solve this by being more selective in who you team with, because everyone is going to have different ideas of what is and isn't appropriately balanced. In theory if this is restricted to just a single AT you could just refuse to invite the new AT to your teams and refuse to join teams with the new AT, but that adds a ton of friction to how most people play the game, and realistically most people are going to accept the OP characters anyway because they make missions faster even if it's less fun. People tend to be really, really bad about self-policing that sort of thing.

 

Well newsflash, this already happens here. The power differential between SO builds and full IO builds is massive. and the game is balanced around SOs, not IOs. Don't act like this hasn't been an issue since IOs were created. By your own argument, IOs should be removed from the game because people simply can't help but make themselves omnipotent, steamrolling and trivializing content, and wrecking the experience of those who don't have IO builds. Not to mention all the friction of building a team only to have a few people with IO builds ruin the fun for everyone else. I mean, how much fun can be had when one guy with a full IO build plus Incarnates one-shot nukes every mob? Yup, IOs and Incarnates need to go! They're ruining the experience Jack so lovingly created 20 years ago, where 1 hero = 3 minions, no evolution allowed.

 

4 hours ago, nzer said:

I'm not going to deny that there are some people for whom this is a fun concept that adds to the experience, but for the vast majority of people it's not, and I don't think it has any place in Homecoming, or really in any serious project where things like difficulty and balance are relevant in basically any way.

It would appeal to the same people who min/max and do full IO builds now.

I'm not seriously advocating it be done here. I know it's not gonna happen. But I still think it would be cool.

[nzer]

3 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

The power differential between SO builds and full IO builds is massive. and the game is balanced around SOs, not IOs. Don't act like this hasn't been an issue since IOs were created. By your own argument, IOs should be removed from the game

 

The difference is that IOs are a well designed system that adds a ton of depth in places the game was sorely missing it. It's easy to justify their existence in spite of the balance issues they cause, because their value is more substantive than "hey wouldn't it be cool if...". The same can't be said of this hypothetical AT, IMO.

Edited yesterday at 07:22 AM by nzer

[Carnifax]

9 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

It would appeal to the same people who min/max and do full IO builds now.

I disagree here. I think I'd make one uber-char, play it, get bored and move on. I'll have "exhausted" the game. 

 

Making a powerful IO build within the sandbox of "these are your powers" is interesting. 

 

Making a powerful build with "there are no limitations" is awesome for a bit, then gets boring quickly. 

 

 

[Hatchet_Manners]

10 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Well newsflash, this already happens here. The power differential between SO builds and full IO builds is massive. and the game is balanced around SOs, not IOs. Don't act like this hasn't been an issue since IOs were created. By your own argument, IOs should be removed from the game because people simply can't help but make themselves omnipotent, steamrolling and trivializing content, and wrecking the experience of those who don't have IO builds. Not to mention all the friction of building a team only to have a few people with IO builds ruin the fun for everyone else. I mean, how much fun can be had when one guy with a full IO build plus Incarnates one-shot nukes every mob? Yup, IOs and Incarnates need to go! They're ruining the experience Jack so lovingly created 20 years ago, where 1 hero = 3 minions, no evolution allowed.

 

It would appeal to the same people who min/max and do full IO builds now.

I'm not seriously advocating it be done here. I know it's not gonna happen. But I still think it would be cool.

Then why bring it up here? If you like it then just go play it on the other game. You are clearly arguing for this feature to be added to homecoming. 

 

It's odd to me that essentially an advertisement for a different coh-clone is even allowed on the forum.

 

Godmode is just not fun, which is why even in the modern world of low difficulty games still game designers don't give it to players.  Godmode is not gameplay, it's a testing sandbox. 

[Captain Fabulous]

22 minutes ago, Hatchet_Manners said:

Then why bring it up here? If you like it then just go play it on the other game. You are clearly arguing for this feature to be added to homecoming. 

 

It's odd to me that essentially an advertisement for a different coh-clone is even allowed on the forum.

 

Godmode is just not fun, which is why even in the modern world of low difficulty games still game designers don't give it to players.  Godmode is not gameplay, it's a testing sandbox. 

 

'K byeeeee! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Oklahoman]

[ZacKing]

15 hours ago, nzer said:

You don't have to, but having the option at all would destroy the experience for a lot of people.

 

7 hours ago, nzer said:

The difference is that IOs are a well designed system that adds a ton of depth in places the game was sorely missing it. It's easy to justify their existence in spite of the balance issues they cause, because their value is more substantive than "hey wouldn't it be cool if...". The same can't be said of this hypothetical AT, IMO.

 

I'm going to disagree with this.  Yeah, IOs are cool and so are incarnates, but they vastly overpowered the people using them for a game that wasn't designed for it.  You can't seriously suggest that two people on a team where one is only SOs versus someone fully kitted out with IOs are on the same level.  They're not.  Not even close. 

 

Just look at any bit of content that was once considered the hardest content of the game and a real challenge -  Miss Liberty TF, Hamidon Raids, LRSF etc.  All of these are trivial now.  Hamidon is being farmed now several times a day and can essentially be annihilated without even taking out a single Mito due to Incarnate Lore Pets and buffs. 

 

We're already capable of creating way overpowered characters here with the tools we have.  Look at how new abilities like Fold Space are creating a whole new meta build here for even higher DPS. 

[roleki]

Not to point out the obvious, but if "any power, any time, any number of times" was really that much of a draw, we would all be on THEIR forums right now, while some guy from the wilderness comes busting through the doorway panting and waving his his hands around about how HC has Fold Space or some shit. 

 

As an experiment, any/any/any would be interesting to see what the most effective overall character is, but who would want to be running around in PI watching some dude with 18 different T9s?  50 dudes with 18x T9s?

 

ETA: clairuty

Edited yesterday at 03:13 PM by roleki

[Oklahoman]

14 minutes ago, roleki said:

ETA: clairuty

 

Ouch.

[InvaderStych]

11 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

It would appeal to the same people who min/max and do full IO builds now.

 

Speaking as one of those people that selects a concept, chooses AT and powers accordingly, then applies min/max techniques within those choices to see how far something can be pushed I can firmly say that the ND implementation does not appeal to me at all.

 

Ability to mix/match primary and secondary, perhaps, but selecting multiples of the same power, auto-granting all inherents/travel powers, using the highest base modifiers for each category? No thanks.

 

Finding ways to min/max within a set of limitations is the interesting part - free reign with no restrictions is boring, imo. Maybe that's just me, but the build paradigm and the costume creator are what draw me to this game. The actual act of combat with static targets driven by rudimentary AI in a system where hits are determined by math instead of aim isn't all that interesting to me - which is why this is the only MMO I've actually enjoyed - the dressing around the gameplay appeals to me.

 

Now, if the implementation were something like ...

 

... Choose 1 AT inherent.

... Choose any primary from any AT

... Choose any secondary from any AT

... Deny access to ATO sets as there is no applicable AT

... Choose 1 base modifier from existing ATs ... ie, blaster mods for all thing, or defender mods for all things, but not a mix of mods for range, melee, buff/debuff, etc.

... Same rules for Pool choices and slotting

... Choose any "Epic" from any AT

 

... that might be interesting.

 

Point is that the constraints are what make building interesting, speaking only for myself here.

[Bionic_Flea]

Quote

ETA: clairuty

 

Clair Uty will be arriving soon.

Edited yesterday at 03:40 PM by Bionic_Flea

[InvaderStych]

Just now, Bionic_Flea said:

Clair Uty will be arriving soon.

 

All hail Clair Uty!!!

 

May the light of her eternal flame bless us all!

[Excraft]

16 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Speaking as one of those people that selects a concept, chooses AT and powers accordingly, then applies min/max techniques within those choices to see how far something can be pushed I can firmly say that the ND implementation does not appeal to me at all.

 

Ability to mix/match primary and secondary, perhaps, but selecting multiples of the same power, auto-granting all inherents/travel powers, using the highest base modifiers for each category? No thanks.

 

Finding ways to min/max within a set of limitations is the interesting part - free reign with no restrictions is boring, imo.

 

I think most people would agree and are the same.  I'd probably give this a try just to do it but I think it would get boring after a while.  Would be fantastic for concept characters though.  I don't think it would destroy the game as some people here are suggesting.  Incarnates, IOs and such have already done that anyway.

[Skyhawke]

33 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Clair Uty will be arriving soon.

 

And her French counterpart Eclair Uty.

[Frozen Burn]

I have no use for such thing.  Mixing and matching what?  A controller set with an armor set?  Nah.  Don't need another Sentinel clone.  The only sets I need are Blasters - that I play like scrappers anyway.  So, not even a melee set/ranged set combo would be of any interest as: 1) it's already like that and 2) the utility/survivability powers would not be there.  😄 

 

And this whole thing seems too OP.  I get the appeal and doing to it to say you've done it, but it sounds like an "I win button" and it's not for me.  

 

 

Edited yesterday at 04:48 PM by Frozen Burn
Filthy typos!

[Captain Fabulous]

40 minutes ago, Skyhawke said:

 

And her French counterpart Eclair Uty.

 

By far the tastiest Uty!

[electric_emu]

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Finding ways to min/max within a set of limitations is the interesting part - free reign with no restrictions is boring, imo.

 

As someone who would absolutely love to combine certain sets for the sake of concept I can't otherwise make, this pretty much sums up my thoughts on it.  I'd like a freeform/"Paragon" style AT if had some guardrails or at least an attempt at balancing it against regular ATs.    

[nzer]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

I'm going to disagree with this.

 

I mean, you didn't actually disagree with my point, which is that IOs add a lot to the game mechanically even if they aren't in line with its general balancing. Again, it's easy to justify their existence in spite of their balance issues because they enable deep buildcrafting and a robust player economy.

 

I also just don't find "it's already broken, therefore it's fine if we break it more" to be a terribly compelling argument. Maybe we could unbreak things instead?

 

3 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Just look at any bit of content that was once considered the hardest content of the game and a real challenge -  Miss Liberty TF, Hamidon Raids

 

Just to be clear, MLTF, the current form of the Hami raid, and IOs were all added in issue 9.