Its time to turn Bitter Freeze Ray into a snipe

[kelika2]

Call Hawks animation

Out of Combat: increased damage, mag2 or 3 hold.  longer animation forms an ice spike

In combat: high damage, mag1 hold.  shorter animation that just throws a shotguns worth of ice slivers

 

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Got the power names mixed up.

Edited Tuesday at 06:11 AM by kelika2
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[Frozen Burn]

11 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Call Hawks animation

Out of Combat: increased damage, mag2 or 3 hold.  longer animation forms an ice spike

In combat: high damage, mag1 hold.  shorter animation that just throws a shotguns worth of ice slivers

 

No.  Just no.  Bitter Ice Blast is your heavy damage single target power that all Blast sets get.  This should not be replaced.  In the Ice Blast set, the snipe is replaced with Bitter Freeze Ray.  So, I hope that is a typo in your title in that you mean to replace Bitter Freeze Ray instead.  Edit:  I meant, not replace Bitter Freeze Ray but perhaps change it up as you suggested.

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:34 AM by Frozen Burn

[Rudra]

I would rather live without a snipe on Ice Blast and keep both Bitter Freeze Ray and Bitter Ice Blast on my Ice Blast/Cold Domination Corruptor, thanks.

[kelika2]

37 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

Bitter Ice Blast

well shit, i did say bitter ice blast didnt i.

[Wavicle]

A Snipe with a Hold? No, sorry.

[golstat2003]

No thanks. I like bitter freeze ray as is. not every set needs a snipe.

[arcane]

Ice Blast is already the #1 meta set in the settings where single target damage matters, and you want it to be better? Obviously not gonna happen.

[Uun]

I took Bitter Freeze Ray on my Ice/Temp blaster and skipped it on my Ice/Kin corruptor. I don't think Ice needs a snipe, but the animation on BFR is quite long and I wouldn't complain if it were shortened.

[mistagoat]

15 minutes ago, Uun said:

I took Bitter Freeze Ray on my Ice/Temp blaster and skipped it on my Ice/Kin corruptor. I don't think Ice needs a snipe, but the animation on BFR is quite long and I wouldn't complain if it were shortened.

Yeah, I'm with ya there. I usually skip BFR because of activation time unless I'm really leaning into the holds.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to making it a snipe in some way but let's be honest, it's never gonna happen cuz Ice isn't underperforming.

[Frozen Burn]

I can see some value in this OP as using the current Bitter Freeze Ray with long animation and high damage as a snipe and hold - jus tup the range on it.  Damage can remain the same and NOT upped to Snipe level since there is a hold component.  Then, while in combat, you get the "fast snipe" activation with lower (but still high/moderate) damage so you can use the hold better while in combat.

 

I wouldn't mind a change like this.  I often use BFR as my opener on a boss so that the long animation is done prior to any aggro, and then quickly follow it up with FR to lock the boss down.  I don't need higher damage on it, but the increased range and the "fast snipe" activation while in combat could be beneficial.

[Shin Magmus]

   For reference, almost every good Ice Blast build skips Bitter Freeze Ray because of the punishingly slow animation.  Even as a 2nd Hold and when loaded with dmg procs, it loses cleanly in DPA to basically every Epic Pool Hold you can take instead: the big ones being Dominate (on Defs/Corrs) and Char (Defs/Corrs/Blasters).  The animation used by Bitter Freeze Ray isn't just slow either, it's specifically the overly slow, vile, widely hated animation of slow Energy Transfer which is used exclusively on powers the playerbase hates and complains about, including Devastating Blow.  BFR is the most skippable ST attack in the set for players who have good builds.

 

   All this is to say, hey if you're suggesting buffing it in any way then I'm all for it.  The fact that it's less desirable than Freeze Ray and Epic powers simultaneously, already delegates it to insane low priority 3rd ST Hold/Attack pick that is hard to justify ever taking, even on a meme Hold-stacking build.  Slow animation times also hurt Mez-stacking in general because that animation translates into time where your other Mezzes are ticking down and expiring... while you sit there waiting on the power to finish animating.  That said, the devs would never allow a Snipe to also be a solid Hold so this will end up going nowhere.

[Glacier Peak]

I'd say for players who have used BFR, they know how long the animation takes so they can use it in the right situations and reap the rewards. It's a fun power, a lot of opportunities to maximize the crowd control potential with Freeze Ray and an additional epic hold - or use it to hold Elite Bosses while the TAoEs from Ice Storm and Blizzard cleans up the rest of the mob. Definitely helps during Hami runs to lock down the Mito and add to the duration of the holds on AVs or GMs. It just wouldn't make any sense to put a snipe mechanic in to BFR because of the crowd control focus, TAoEs, and already strong single target attacks. It hits like a truck too, great opener against an EB on Corruptors when coupled with Aim and Build Up  (with Gaussians Chance for BU) from the Ice Mastery pool - it will get you in to Scourge territory fast. 

[Wavicle]

Maybe MAYBE something like: "If your target is Held or Slept, BFR will animate in 1 second."

Maybe.

[Bluff]

Based on patterns from other sets, Bitter Ice Blast would be the more likely candidate to be replaced with a snipe.

 

Bitter Freeze Ray seems more comparable to powers like Voltaic Sentinel, Life Drain, Power Push, Beanbag, Stunning Shot… Freeze Ray is your t3 blast and BFR is more of a utility like those other powers.

 

Asking for a snipe on top of what ice blast already has seems like a massive buff for no reason.

 

Anyway, you could play a Scapper or Stalker and get your ice snipe over there, instead.

Edited yesterday at 05:16 PM by Bluff

[Frozen Burn]

22 hours ago, Bluff said:

Based on patterns from other sets, Bitter Ice Blast would be the more likely candidate to be replaced with a snipe.

 

No, not true at all.  Many sets have a heavy hitting ST attack along with their snipe, or they have the Heavy ST and replace the snipe with something else.  Bitter Ice Blast is comparable to:

• Archery:  Blazing Arrow (Snipe = Ranged Shot)
• Beam Rifle:  Lancer Shot (Snipe = Penetrating Ray)
• Dark:  Gloom (Snipe = Moonbeam)
• Dual Pistols:  Executioner's Shot (no snipe, but the set's comparable snipe is Piercing Rounds)
• Energy:  Power Burst (Snipe = Sniper Blast)
• Fire:  Blaze (Snipe = Blazing Bolt)
• Psychic:  TK Blast (snipe = Psionic Lance)
• Radiation:  Cosmic Burst (Snipe = Proton Volley)
• Seismic:  Entomb (Snipe = Tombstone)
• Sonic:  Shout (no snipe, but BFR is comparable to Screech = high damage + Stun)
• Storm:  Cloudburst (Snipe = Direct Strike)
• Water:  Water Jet (no snipe) 

This is most sets and and the pattern that is followed.  Clearly, Bitter Ice Blast does not replace the snipe.

 

22 hours ago, Bluff said:

Bitter Freeze Ray seems more comparable to powers like Voltaic Sentinel, Life Drain, Power Push, Beanbag, Stunning Shot… Freeze Ray is your t3 blast and BFR is more of a utility like those other powers.

 

Again, not entirely accurate. 

• Voltaic Sentinel is unique to Electric and more likely replaces the Heavy ST power like listed above, since Short Circuit more likely replaces a "Rain" type power, and the set has a snipe (Zapp).
• Life Drain is really more comparable to a T2 attack with it's lower damage - and nowhere comparable to BFR.  Even though Gloom is in the T2 spot, it acts more like the Heavy ST attack of the set as it does more damage.  
• Power Push is comparable to Freeze Ray, Tesla Cage, Abyssal Gaze, Stunning Shot, Beanbag, etc.  It's damage is also nowhere near BFR.
• Beanbag and Stunning Shot - again, are more like Freeze Ray and similar damage scale and fast activation.  They do not have the high damage and longer animation that BFR has.  

And Freeze Ray is not T3 - it's T5.  But you can't compare it to other sets based on tiers as other mezzes in other sets are appear at various tiers throughout.  

 

Yes, BFR is a utility power, but not like the ones you described.  It does the most damage of all ST attacks in the Ice Blast set and essentially does replace the snipe, but just gives a hold instead.

 

22 hours ago, Bluff said:

Asking for a snipe on top of what ice blast already has seems like a massive buff for no reason.

 

Yes, the OP is asking for a buff to the set, but there is a reason - eliminate the long animation of BFR and lower the damage or hold mag in exchange for the "fast snipe" mechanic.  It's a reasonable request, imo, as it might make people more apt to take it and use it.  

 

But if it doesn't happen, I don't care.  I'm fine with the set as is and will continue to use BFR.  🙂  

 

[Frozen Burn]

On 1/28/2025 at 2:22 PM, Shin Magmus said:

   For reference, almost every good Ice Blast build skips Bitter Freeze Ray because of the punishingly slow animation.  Even as a 2nd Hold and when loaded with dmg procs, it loses cleanly in DPA to basically every Epic Pool Hold you can take instead: the big ones being Dominate (on Defs/Corrs) and Char (Defs/Corrs/Blasters).  The animation used by Bitter Freeze Ray isn't just slow either, it's specifically the overly slow, vile, widely hated animation of slow Energy Transfer which is used exclusively on powers the playerbase hates and complains about, including Devastating Blow.  BFR is the most skippable ST attack in the set for players who have good builds.

 

"Good" is subjective and to you only and your goals for playing.  

 

First off, the animation of BFR was shortened ages ago to 2.5s - shorter than long snipes at 2.67s, and Thunderous Blast which is the same animation but is 2.93s (BFR used to be this long) - and in fact, most Nukes are 2.9 - 3s long and they are used in combat.  So, really, BFR is not that horrible comparatively, even if used in combat.  But yeah, the payoff is not like a Nuke, hence the slightly faster cast time.

 

However, BFR and it's slower animation is perfect as the opening shot on a Boss - like that pesky Paragon Protector that MoGs or a Fake Nem that bubbles.  Followed up with Freeze Ray and the hold maintained by FR, you can keep the boss locked and eliminate without the hassle and incoming damage from it.  

 

I also have Char from Fire epic giving me 3 holds and I can lock down an EB right off the bat (or hold 2 bosses) and have them die in my AOEs while I kill everything else and maintain the hold(s) with FR and Char.  And if I have to work in BFR too due to a miss, it's possible.  

 

You are right in that BFR is the most skippable power in the set due to the long animation.  But those who take it and use it properly, doesn't make their builds bad.  You can disagree - that's fine.  We all build differently and care about different things when doing so. 

 

[Shin Magmus]

15 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

"Good" is subjective and to you only and your goals for playing.  

 

First off, the animation of BFR was shortened ages ago to 2.5s - shorter than long snipes at 2.67s, and Thunderous Blast which is the same animation but is 2.93s (BFR used to be this long) - and in fact, most Nukes are 2.9 - 3s long and they are used in combat.  So, really, BFR is not that horrible comparatively, even if used in combat.  But yeah, the payoff is not like a Nuke, hence the slightly faster cast time.

 

However, BFR and it's slower animation is perfect as the opening shot on a Boss - like that pesky Paragon Protector that MoGs or a Fake Nem that bubbles.  Followed up with Freeze Ray and the hold maintained by FR, you can keep the boss locked and eliminate without the hassle and incoming damage from it.  

 

I also have Char from Fire epic giving me 3 holds and I can lock down an EB right off the bat (or hold 2 bosses) and have them die in my AOEs while I kill everything else and maintain the hold(s) with FR and Char.  And if I have to work in BFR too due to a miss, it's possible.  

 

You are right in that BFR is the most skippable power in the set due to the long animation.  But those who take it and use it properly, doesn't make their builds bad.  You can disagree - that's fine.  We all build differently and care about different things when doing so. 

 

I disagree.

[ScarySai]

I'd honestly go the opposite way.

 

Ice has such a strong rotation that a snipe wouldn't really be needed. If you turned bitter into an aoe blast, that would actually give ice something it needs.

[Bluff]

55 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

No, not true at all.  Many sets have a heavy hitting ST attack along with their snipe, or they have the Heavy ST and replace the snipe with something else.  Bitter Ice Blast is comparable to:

• Archery:  Blazing Arrow (Snipe = Ranged Shot)
• Beam Rifle:  Lancer Shot (Snipe = Penetrating Ray)
• Dark:  Gloom (Snipe = Moonbeam)
• Dual Pistols:  Executioner's Shot (no snipe, but the set's comparable snipe is Piercing Rounds)
• Energy:  Power Burst (Snipe = Sniper Blast)
• Fire:  Blaze (Snipe = Blazing Bolt)
• Psychic:  TK Blast (snipe = Psionic Lance)
• Radiation:  Cosmic Burst (Snipe = Proton Volley)
• Seismic:  Entomb (Snipe = Tombstone)
• Sonic:  Shout (no snipe, but BFR is comparable to Screech = high damage + Stun)
• Storm:  Cloudburst (Snipe = Direct Strike)
• Water:  Water Jet (no snipe) 

This is most sets and and the pattern that is followed.  Clearly, Bitter Ice Blast does not replace the snipe.

 

- Freeze Ray's damage is scaled by the 10s recharge time. This puts it in the same bucket as Blaze, TK Blast, Power Burst, Shout, Tesla Cage.

- Bitter Ice Blast has a 12s recharge time, the same as all the other snipes.

It makes sense to compare these powers based on recharge time and endurance cost because that's how the damage/effectiveness is scaled.

I don't mean Freeze Ray is the literal 3rd tier power, but usually you call an attack "t3" when it's the attack between the t1/t2 attacks and the snipe in damage. Semantics aside, you can just compare by recharge time.

[Championess]

Yeah I'm in the camp of Ice Blast is top two of the blast sets and we want to make it better?!

 

Yes the animation is long and holds you up from dishing out the better faster damage on the other blast powers.  Its a power I skip on some ATs but on Corruptors when Scourge kicks in it hits like a truck and procs well.  On Corruptors I take it and bury it 5th in my ST attack chain which I never get to, but on an AV when you get to scourge levels it moves up to 3rd for me with all that damage, procing and stacking holds it becomes tolerable to use.  Ice assaults are good right where they are at.

Edited 5 hours ago by Championess

[srmalloy]

14 minutes ago, Championess said:

Yes the animation is long and holds you up from dishing out the better faster damage on the other blast powers. 

However, it's a good lead-off attack when your target is oblivious. My Ice/Ice Blaster, when running Heather Townsend's arc, will use it on the higher rank in a spawn, then the other, fast-triggering, hold on the other mob in the spawn before taking them apart. Not as reliable as my Grav/Traps Controller's 'lay down mines, then Wormhole the spawn into the mine field' tactic, but quite a bit faster.

[Stormwalker]

Yeah, I have to disagree with this suggestion.  Ice Blast does not need any kind of buffs at this point.

 

Of my blasters, my Ice/Ice is unquestionably the strongest (at level 36, she's much stronger than my Energy/Energy was at the same level, and while she doesn't have the raw damage of my Fire/Fire blaster she's far more survivable), and Bitter Freeze Ray is a significant part of the reason why.  I don't even slot it for damage, I slot it for Hold, so making it a snipe and giving it a fast animation while keeping its Hold would make it hilariously OP in my build.  The long animation time is pretty much the only drawback the power has, so taking that away would remove the only tactical consideration involved in using it.

 

And reducing the magnitude of its Hold is a non-starter in the other direction.  That would be an enormous nerf.  Being able to use your two holds together to hold bosses is essential to Ice's design.

 

Ice is arguably overpowered already.  I'm not saying it should be nerfed, but it doesn't need to get stronger.  Unless a number of other Blaster primaries get upgrades first.

Edited 5 hours ago by Stormwalker

[macskull]

3 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

So, really, BFR is not that horrible comparatively, even if used in combat.  But yeah, the payoff is not like a Nuke, hence the slightly faster cast time.

Wait, are you seriously saying BFR isn’t that bad because its cast time is shorter than some nukes? Surely you understand why that is a completely useless comparison?

[Wavicle]

Something I haven't seen anyone mention in this discussion that may be of relevance:

 

Freeze Ray (not BFR) originally did NO damage. Meaning it was equivalent to Power Push. BFR WAS the t3 blast.

 

NOW FR is the t3 blast and BFR is more equivalent to something like Life Drain.

[ScarySai]

Yeah, freeze ray is the way it is now to make up for the lack of snipe. It's a change DP was also slated to get but never got, dunno how they were planning to do that.