Legendary 45% softcap... True/False/Sometimes/BS?

[Erratic1]

15 hours ago, Andreah said:

Also, please, for gods' sake, turn off your caps lock.

 

WOULD IT BE WRONG OF ME TO POINT OUT IT COULD GET MUCH, MUCH WORSE?

 

Not even going to go hunting for the options to make the letter blink. 😁

[Maelwys]

4 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Not even going to go hunting for the options to make the letter blink. 😁

 

_{(Although TBF my real source of fury from the oldenwebs wasn't <blink> tags but crap like this)}

[Jacke]

Wow.  This has gone on...let me check...23 minus 15...8 days.  Just onto 7 pages of replies.

 

But @Troo on the first reply referred to something on May 13th...okay, that means this goes deeper...hey!  @shortguy on indom finally has selected a combination of typeface and size that is almost legible!  Rejoice!  Okay, where was I...?

 

Adding to this...whatever it is.  My bad.  (Better add 2 blank lines, so if I have to edit, it looks better.)

 

 

[Gerswin]

The best damage mitigation in the game is based on anticipation, mobility, and reflexes. There are some players that very rarely faceplant, even when they are playing squishy toons with minimal defenses. Knowing where to stand, bounce or fly while being able to quickly execute an 'escape' if damaged or mezzed is far more valuable than a few percentage points of def or res.

 

My estimate is that expert proficiency with [Combat teleport] is worth 35 points of global defense when it comes to survivability.  Hover blasting, while situational (Battle Maiden in Apex???, -fly mobs???) and more of a crutch than a comprehensive defensive strategy, is worth 25 points of global def.  Being able to execute successive 'jousts' with a melee toon that generate 75%+ of standstill melee dps while staying at range is worth 25+ points of global def. 

 

I won't namedrop here, but I know players on excelsior that can run 4* Aeon speed runs (no inspirations)on a fire blaster without dying, without fighting pool, and without rotating stacking barrier. Any regular content run at +4/x8 is easy compared to this.

 

TLDR version : softcap def is a noob crutch that only feels strong when doing specific easy content.

[tidge]

56 minutes ago, Gerswin said:

TLDR version : softcap def is a noob crutch that only feels strong when doing specific easy content.

 

But I have Kick/Tough/Weave and Hasten by level 20!

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, Gerswin said:

TLDR version : softcap def is a noob crutch that only feels strong when doing specific easy content.

 

Fromsoft's the next forum over.

 

[skoryy]

23 hours ago, Maelwys said:

IMO the answer is that the 45% softcap (58.75% in Incarnate content) is absolutely a thing.
The real question however is whether achieving it is worth the build tradeoffs; given the prevalence of Teammate buffs/Inspirations/etc and Defense Debuffs.

 

Getting 45% doesn't require much, if any, tradeoffs.  Purple insps are your friend too.

Building for layers is always good.  (All hail Willpower.)  Just remember that defense is a vital layer.

[Troo]

4 hours ago, Jacke said:

But @Troo on the first reply referred to something on May 13th...okay, that means this goes deeper...hey!

 

That was from a different thread where you said:

Spoiler

On 5/10/2025 at 2:14 PM, Jacke said:

Be aware that even Effects labelled as "Ignores Resistance" are still affected by the Purple Patch.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Purple_Patch

"When contemporary forum-goers talk about the "purple patch", they may be referring to the way player character effectiveness scales against different-level enemies. To use the table below, multiply the effects of your powers by the value in the Above column if you are Level levels above your target, or by the value in the Below column if you are Level levels below your target.

"These modifers apply to almost everything in combat: Debuff strength, Mez duration, Knockback magnitude, and Damage are all affected."

 

Mobs are usually a higher Level than the Toons.  The common max difference is +3L from Toons to Mobs (Mobs at +4L versus the Toon's Alpha +1--but most Pets don't get the Caster's Global buffs, including Level shifts, so it's +4L from ally Pets to Mobs).  Which means +3L from Mobs to Toons, +4L from Mobs to Pets.

 

That gives these multiplicative factors:

• +4 (Mobs to Pets)     x1.44
• +3 (Mobs to Toons)  x1.33
• -3  (Toons to Mobs)  x0.65
• -4  (Pets to Mobs)     x0.48

 

There's other factors for the Base Chance to Hit on the lower table on the Purple Patch page.  That's just for Toons to Mobs.

• -3  (Toons to Mobs)  48%
• -4  (Pets to Mobs)     39%

 

For Mobs against Toons and Pets, that really complex.  The details are in here, spread all out.  I'm also more uncertain here about these things.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

 

For Mobs:

"HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )"

"AccMods  =  the power's inherent Accuracy  ×  the Accuracy of the enemy's Rank  ×  Accuracy factor due to level difference"

 

The Clamps hold a value to between 95% and 5%, ie. "min(max(value, 5%), 95%)" or in ratios "min(max(value, 0.05), 0.95)".  BassHitChance for Mobs is 50%.

 

 Accuracy factor due to level difference:

• +4 (Mobs to Pets)     x1.4
• +3 (Mobs to Toons)  x1.3

 

Accuracy of the enemy's Rank::

Minion, player Pet	1.00
Lieutenant	1.15
Boss, Elite Boss, Sniper	1.30
Monster, Giant Monster, AV	1.50

 

Power's inherent Accuracy is a number, usually 1.0, but sometimes lower, sometimes higher, same as Toon's Powers.

 

My brain hurts now, so putting this all together I leave as an exercise.  😺

[Maelwys]

8 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Getting 45% doesn't require much, if any, tradeoffs. 

Championess made the same claim on Page #1 of this very thread.
We're still waiting for evidence.

At an absolute minimum; by building for +Defence you're sacrificing a few enhancement slots that could have been utilised for Damage Procs instead... and frequently it locks you into specific power pool selections and enhancement set choices; meaning that other potentially-beneficial powers and set bonuses get passed over. And for an AT with no inherent Defence (such as Dominators) the sheer magnitude of bonuses you need to chase and attain in order to hit the 45% threshold is often very punitive for other aspects of your build. Even if you just aim at a single flavour (like Ranged Positional defense; or S/L Typed defense).

Obviously some builds are (far) more efficient than others with how they handle the tradeoffs; and specific powerset combinations don't work well with damage procs or set bonuses (like Masterminds and toons with lots of long-duration Pseudopets). And I have a fair number of builds that chase 45% Defense efficiently as a gimmick. But there is a good reason why most of the high-DPS builds out there cap out at about ~15-20% Defense rather than ~45%... especially when you can just raid the AH for big purple Insps and/or pop a Barrier Destiny Incarnate.

[tidge]

This is the main reason why I rarely pursue "caps" (for the purposes of this thread, "Defense caps")

 

2 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

...it locks you into specific power pool selections and enhancement set choices; meaning that other potentially-beneficial powers and set bonuses get passed over.

 

There are some amazing things to be done with characters, especially now (in the HC era) when we have gotten earlier access to so many different powers. I feel lucky if I can squeeze as many as four powers outside the primary and secondary before level 26... there is no way in this era I'd plan to burn 4 power picks on (for example) 3 from the fighting pool + Combat Jumping, just for a smidge more S/L resistance and some extra defense before level 30. IMO, that's old school thinking from when we had more 'empty levels' and needed to invest slots faster into the primary/secondary powers.

 

I'm unpersuaded by arguments like "but you will take 10% - 100% more damage per attack!", especially on ATs where that might end up being less than +10 HP of extra damage, or the damage to the green bar is otherwise going to be completely mitigated by Absorb, Regeneration, self-healing, blah blah fishcakes.

[Maelwys]

9 minutes ago, tidge said:

blah blah fishcakes.

+1 for Carp Melee.

(C'mon Devs; we've had Fish Blast / Fish Affinity Ranged toons available for nearly a year... where's my slimy befinned War Mace Weapon customization option??!?)

[battlewraith]

30 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

At an absolute minimum; by building for +Defence you're sacrificing a few enhancement slots that could have been utilised for Damage Procs instead... and frequently it locks you into specific power pool selections and enhancement set choices; meaning that other potentially-beneficial powers and set bonuses get passed over. And for an AT with no inherent Defence (such as Dominators) the sheer magnitude of bonuses you need to chase and attain in order to hit the 45% threshold is often very punitive for other aspects of your build. Even if you just aim at a single flavour (like Ranged Positional defense; or S/L Typed defense).

 

This all makes sense if we simply embrace how hilariously broken aspects of this game are. First of all that procs are so stupidly rewarding that it makes sense of eschewing any kind of real build balance in favor of slotting as many of them as possible. Secondly that players can simply pop fatty inspirations in advance to cover the holes they left in their builds. 

 

 

[Snokle]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

 

Getting 45% doesn't require much, if any, tradeoffs.  Purple insps are your friend too.

Building for layers is always good.  (All hail Willpower.)  Just remember that defense is a vital layer.

 

Yes, using layered defence is always good. Defence is vital to a point per context, it all counts on what you are giving up and how much support you have for all the defence you have. Even if I got 45% with some resistance armour from an epic on a support character, if I have low DPS cause of this and it takes me longer to take out enemies than there is a tradeoff, and raises risk for me to fail as extended time can lead to mistake and chance for hits.

 

While defence is nice, it is not vital, or not as vital as it was on Live.

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Gerswin said:

TLDR version : softcap def is a noob crutch that only feels strong when doing specific easy content.

He’s right you know 

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, Gerswin said:

The best damage mitigation in the game is based on anticipation, mobility, and reflexes. There are some players that very rarely faceplant, even when they are playing squishy toons with minimal defenses. Knowing where to stand, bounce or fly while being able to quickly execute an 'escape' if damaged or mezzed is far more valuable than a few percentage points of def or res.

 

My estimate is that expert proficiency with [Combat teleport] is worth 35 points of global defense when it comes to survivability.  Hover blasting, while situational (Battle Maiden in Apex???, -fly mobs???) and more of a crutch than a comprehensive defensive strategy, is worth 25 points of global def.  Being able to execute successive 'jousts' with a melee toon that generate 75%+ of standstill melee dps while staying at range is worth 25+ points of global def. 

 

I won't namedrop here, but I know players on excelsior that can run 4* Aeon speed runs (no inspirations)on a fire blaster without dying, without fighting pool, and without rotating stacking barrier. Any regular content run at +4/x8 is easy compared to this.

 

TLDR version : softcap def is a noob crutch that only feels strong when doing specific easy content.

My Fire Fire Fire Blaster built for DPS no damage mitigation is surprisingly alive through most hard content.  When things are dead or running for their lives with a sliver of health you do not get attacked very much. This works in 4/8 and with (league buffs) incarnate content.  But…. You have to play aggressively, and know the odds.  Do i need to chomp a medium purple?  A large purple?  Can i stealth/nuke…nuke…rain…rain…cleanup with just a can do attitude?  Actually, usually.  And Rise of the Phoenix gets used less than you would believe.    Again, no defense no resist.  Built for +damage.  Because Fire Fire Fire just needed a little more damage.  

[aethereal]

Boring subtext of this thread:  "People differ in what they consider 'hard content' to be."

[Adeon Hawkwood]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

Boring subtext of this thread:  "People differ in what they consider 'hard content' to be."

Also: "People differ in how they like to build their characters."

 

IMHO there's always been a Flavor of the Month element to IO builds. When IOs were first released the focus on on perma-hasten, every build you saw on the forums talked about how to tweak the build for that. Then the focus shifted to defense with people posting builds with various softcaps. The change to defense set bonuses in Issue 15-ish made building for defense a bit easier encouraging branching out a bit in types of defense as well as building in more recharge. Towards the end of live the devs were trying to encourage building for resistance but it only took off for some sets.

 

In any case, Homecoming has now come full circle with a focus on building for recharge with a side of proc-bombing.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

Boring subtext of this thread:  "People differ in what they consider 'hard content' to be."

I consider hard content 2 to 4 star stuff.  That comes with new gimmicks.  But with a good team, a LOT of incarnate buffs, and patience it can be done ina straightforward fashion.  I almost always want discord for this. 1) i am constantly chattering 2) coordinate barriers and timing of important tactics 

[arcane]

Hard content is really just the Omega K’ong fight. Everything else? Pretty easy for mediocre players to fly under the radar. But that fight is an auto fail if you’re carrying too much dead weight. The team is still afforded one or two carry slots if everyone else is exceptional, but anymore and you take the L.

 

As a result I consider it kind of rude to show up to that TF with an off-meta toon without asking the leader first. Because once you do, you’re disallowing the rest of the team from playing anything off-meta and claiming the carry spot for yourself.

 

Mez loves that carry spot, I can tell you that 😉

Edited yesterday at 05:50 PM by arcane

[Seed22]

4 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Fromsoft's the next forum over.

 

Why is this always you all’s response? They’re right, softcap is a noob trap, with multiple reasons being given in this very thread as to why. 
 

I have never played a fromsoft title, yet have watched them be played by family and other YTbers, yet I too have been met with this very response when talking about mechanics in the game being added, for example.

 

This community has an annoying and serious problem with toxic elitism in the opposite direction, enforced hyper casualness. 
 

Also lmao you all think Fromsoft is the only challenging game when I literally played a Soulslike harder than most of its’ titles(Fromsoft fans have said this themselves. The soulslike is First Beserker Khazan)?and a turn based JRPG that has parrying windows so tight you go to First Beserker Khazan for easy gameplay as the alternative. (Expedition 33.)
 

Point being, expand your gaming horizons and come up with new insults if you’re going to lobby them, for one, and for two, quit with the toxic elitism in the opposite direction.

Edited yesterday at 06:24 PM by Seed22

[Seed22]

41 minutes ago, arcane said:

Hard content is really just the Omega K’ong fight. Everything else? Pretty easy for mediocre players to fly under the radar. But that fight is an auto fail if you’re carrying too much dead weight. The team is still afforded one or two carry slots if everyone else is exceptional, but anymore and you take the L.

 

As a result I consider it kind of rude to show up to that TF with an off-meta toon without asking the leader first. Because once you do, you’re disallowing the rest of the team from playing anything off-meta and claiming the carry spot for yourself.

 

Mez loves that carry spot, I can tell you that 😉

This is very true

If you’re wanting the objective hardest content CoH offers, it’s Omega Kong. Is it actually super difficult mechanically? Not even remotely. But the stat boost native to 4 star are very noticeable here and you’re on a timer. A generous one with a good team, sure, but generally a tight one with anything else. 
 

Barrier cycling alleviates a lot of the problems though barring monkey gas and a lapse in the cycle seeing sudden spikes to the team. 
 

Honestly a decently fun fight, but only with meta toons. Bringing a lot of Feels Good to Me™️ builds is a dick move and a surefire way to fail.

[Snokle]

23 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Why is this always you all’s response? They’re right, softcap is a noob trap, with multiple reasons being given in this very thread as to why. 
 

I have never played a fromsoft title, yet have watched them be played by family and other YTbers, yet I too have been met with this very response when talking about mechanics in the game being added, for example.

 

I have played most FromSoft titles from Demons' Souls up to Elden Ring, and trying to access their older backlog. I can say when I played DeSouls the very first time on PS3 cause it was clunky, slow and I had no clue what I was doing it was hard...BUT I learned quickly through the game and through dying (a lot) how to get around and how combat and other mechanics worked as I got better and more comfortable in the game.

 

While for the most part there mainstream games have specific mechanics and lots of options to let people explore and try and beat the game they do not hold you hand in any which way. It is designed in a way for you to learn yourself. It is tough because it is trying to emulate a sense of dread and hopelessness which is something that you are suppose to overcome with time.

 

Tying into this the mechanics for the most part are usually tight as the focus is on combat, mistakes will get you punished, many mistakes lead to death. Death is common in the games but not as harsh as older games, as it is intended to be apart of the experience. I think people in hyping the game through word of mouth, which now become a meme make something "FromSoft" hard, even if it is really not hard or difficult. It is too much in gaming verbiage in a lazy slang now to either say something is too hard, or not hard enough, or even just to "get good".

 

Hopefully we can move past this stuff someday.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Hard content is really just the Omega K’ong fight.

 

But characters built for that fight fail at other challenges.  Like none of these "all offense" builds can do the kinds of things that people considered hard challenges a few years ago.  Go solo an all-the-optional-challenges-turned-on +4/x8 ITF with it.  If you can do Omega K'ong and you can't solo an ITF, and another build can't do Omega K'ong and can solo an ITF, let me suggest that these are just...  different build goals.  There's no ranking to them.

 

(There is easy content.  Clearly either build could do fine in say an 8-person PI radios team.)

 

Nothing wrong with caring about the Omega K'ong fight to the exclusion of all else.  But these are just divergent build goals, and the idea that one if inherently the "right goal" and others aren't.

 

The "build lots of mitigation" approach comes from a time when solo content was about the only challenging content in the game.  Now they've built team challenging content, which is great and everything, and which rewards very different builds.  But it's boring to go to these threads with, "Well, different builds do different things," so instead people try to pretend that their goals are the only ones that matter.

 

If we really want to be very mechanical about this, the thing in the game that gives the greatest rewards is marketing.  The thing in the game that gives the second best rewards is farming.  If you're doing something other than those, you're doing it because your personal tastes are that that thing is more fun than a different style of play.

[arcane]

29 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

But characters built for that fight fail at other challenges.  Like none of these "all offense" builds can do the kinds of things that people considered hard challenges a few years ago.  Go solo an all-the-optional-challenges-turned-on +4/x8 ITF with it.  If you can do Omega K'ong and you can't solo an ITF, and another build can't do Omega K'ong and can solo an ITF, let me suggest that these are just...  different build goals.  There's no ranking to them.

 

(There is easy content.  Clearly either build could do fine in say an 8-person PI radios team.)

 

Nothing wrong with caring about the Omega K'ong fight to the exclusion of all else.  But these are just divergent build goals, and the idea that one if inherently the "right goal" and others aren't.

 

The "build lots of mitigation" approach comes from a time when solo content was about the only challenging content in the game.  Now they've built team challenging content, which is great and everything, and which rewards very different builds.  But it's boring to go to these threads with, "Well, different builds do different things," so instead people try to pretend that their goals are the only ones that matter.

 

If we really want to be very mechanical about this, the thing in the game that gives the greatest rewards is marketing.  The thing in the game that gives the second best rewards is farming.  If you're doing something other than those, you're doing it because your personal tastes are that that thing is more fun than a different style of play.

The only reason a 4 star build couldn’t handle all of the above is because of arbitrary player decisions like foregoing inspiration use. There is no in-game incentive to solo a +4x8 ITF with no inspirations; that limitation is basically only there to justify personal build choices.

 

Whereas the reasons that soft cap builds will fail a 4 star lady grey is not arbitrary at all. The content actually requires something specific out of your build (primarily DPS).
 

Big difference. 
 

Also, to address the last paragraph, the people on my friends list that are doing several 4 star TF’s a day are definitely making more cash per unit of time than my poor farmer. Ended my marketeering career a couple of years ago for being mind-numbingly boring so no comment there.

Edited yesterday at 07:56 PM by arcane

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

This is very true

If you’re wanting the objective hardest content CoH offers, it’s Omega Kong.

 

I doubt it. I suspect the hardest content coh has to offer is still pvp. For the very simple reason that it's the only content that isn't static. 

 

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

This community has an annoying and serious problem with toxic elitism in the opposite direction, enforced hyper casualness.

 

It's a 20 year old casual game. It's not competitive in any meaningful way.