Overhaul Kinetics for Masterminds

[Lunar Ronin]

Honestly, SCoRE/Resurgence should have never ported the Kinetics power set to Masterminds.  There's a very good, legitimate reason why Paragon Studios never ported Kinetics to Masterminds: There's very little support for henchmen.  As it stands now, Kinetics is a trap power set for players new to the Mastermind AT.  "Kinetics is a great power set, I'll pick that!"  Only for them to get to high level, and realize that their henchmen are unusually squishy because there's nothing outside of Transfusion to support henchmen... and then blame the AT as a whole.  I've seen it time and time and time again over the past six years.

 

It's way too late to remove Kinetics from Masterminds, but at least y'all can overhaul it so it is no longer a trap power set pick.  I don't know what that would look like, but I do see something that needs to be addressed.

[Rudra]

And now I need to make a Kinetics MM. Looking over the set, you should treat it like Dark Miasma, as a debuff focused set. I would skip Repel in the set, and my target would always be the most dangerous in the enemy spawn, but you do get team +damage and +recovery from debuffing the target.

 

Not going to argue if it gets changed for select abilities, but cottage rule still applies.

 

Abilities outside of Transfusion that helps the MM's minions:

Siphon Power (makes the pets within 20 feet of you do more damage)

Increase Density (frees target minion from Holds, getting the minion back in the fight sooner)

Speed Boost (increases minion's attack rate and recovery, on the down side, also makes them more likely to aggro things as their increased speed moves them farther away faster)

Transference (recovers minion endurance within 20 feet of you)

Fulcrum Shift (weakens all enemies within 30 feet of the target and improves the damage of all minions within 20 feet of you)

 

So definitely a trickier set to leverage, looks to require a more pro-active monitoring approach from the player, but doesn't look bad to me. Like I said, now I have to make a Kinetics MM to try it.

[Psyonico]

@Rudra MM pets have locked recharge rates for their powers, so Speed Boost only affects their movement speed and endurance recovery.

 

I’ve never rolled a Kin MM because no matter how much I love teaming with the set, I generally don’t enjoy playing the set.  That being said, I understand the mechanics of the set well enough to respond a bit to the post.

 

Fulcrum Shift absolutely adds to pet survivability because of its AoE -damage and stacking AoE damage buff.  Not only do enemies not hit as hard, but your pets do a lot more damage.  Unfortunately, that is the T9 of the set, so before level 30 your support is limited to Transfusion for AoE and Siphon Power/Siphon Speed/Transference for ST debuffs.

 

Increase Density does add a fair amount of Smashing and Energy resistance in an AoE for your pets, and those are the 2nd and 3rd most common damage types in the game.

 

Honestly? As a Kin MM, I’d probably lean heavily into Repel to keep enemies off their feet for damage mitigation.

 

 Basically, what I’m saying is Kin is the weakest secondary defensively for MMs, there’s no denying that, but a full rework is unlikely.  It’s also one of the strongest secondaries offensively for an MM due to being able to keep your pets at the damage cap.

[Lunar Ronin]

*Sigh*.  This is what I mean about Kinetics being an absolute trap of a power set on Masterminds.  "The +recharge from Speed Boost is great, it'll make my minions do more damage."

 

+Recharge buffs do absolutely nothing on Mastermind henchmen.  They were made to completely ignore +recharge buffs back on live, years and years ago.  So Speed Boost simply makes your henchmen move faster, nothing else.

[megaericzero]

Each of the mastermind ancillary/patron pools has a tool to help, since you mention trouble at high levels.

 

Dark Mastery → Dark Pit
Electricity Mastery → EM Pulse
Energy Mastery → Force of Nature w/ bodyguard
Fire Mastery → Bonfire
Ice Mastery → Flash Freeze

Patron Pools → School of Sharks / Web Envelope / Electrifying Fences / Soul Tentacles (not as effective but prevents enemies from closing the gap)
Soul Mastery → Oppressive Gloom

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

MM pets have locked recharge rates for their powers,

Thanks, didn't know.

 

20 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

so Speed Boost only affects their movement speed and endurance recovery.

That endurance recovery is still a help.

 

21 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I’ve never rolled a Kin MM because no matter how much I love teaming with the set, I generally don’t enjoy playing the set.

I have a similar problem. Never really enjoyed the set on my one Corruptor that has it, and I don't really have kinetic concept characters. (Also, I don't often team, preferring to play solo.)

 

22 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Honestly? As a Kin MM, I’d probably lean heavily into Repel to keep enemies off their feet for damage mitigation.

Good point. I didn't consider that. So I will probably take it and slot Sudden Acceleration in it.

[Injunuity]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

@Rudra MM pets have locked recharge rates for their powers, so Speed Boost only affects their movement speed and endurance recovery.

 

This was done to prevent pets only ever using their auto attack, which had the fastest recharge of all their abils, w/o +rech on their attacks, they now use the full rotation rather than being stuck only using one

[Captain Fabulous]

AoE heal, +recovery, +end, +damage, +mez protection, +damage resistance, +movement speed...

Yeah, nothing of value for MM pets. 🤷‍♂️

[biostem]

A defender cannot even use speed boost or ID while solo, so a MM is in a much better state, since they can buff their pets, even if they cannot take advantage of the +recharge from SB.  Also, powers like siphon speed apply debuffs that help with pet survivability....

Edited Saturday at 08:37 PM by biostem

[Riverdusk]

Kinetics might be weaker defensively, but it is potentially very strong offensively.  I think that is its whole thing, so it'd be hard to mess with it much.   I've also seen some combos like beast/kinetic do very well (all melee pets and run fortify pack to help survive.  Use kinetics to more than make up the damage loss of not criting).

 

Anyway, you'd probably have better luck suggesting some minor changes you'd like to see, rather than saying it needs a complete overhaul.

 

And honestly, the biggest trap I've seen for MM's that leads to people complaining about squishy pets I think is more them trying to join teams running level 54 content when they are lower level and sidekicked up to level 49.  Have fun with your pets surviving or doing anything when they are facing +6 or +7 enemies.

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

*Sigh*.  This is what I mean about Kinetics being an absolute trap of a power set on Masterminds.  "The +recharge from Speed Boost is great, it'll make my minions do more damage."

 

+Recharge buffs do absolutely nothing on Mastermind henchmen.  They were made to completely ignore +recharge buffs back on live, years and years ago.  So Speed Boost simply makes your henchmen move faster, nothing else.

It also keeps their end up, but yea, not a great set for MMs.

[macskull]

Yeahhhhh I think people who look at Kinetics on an MM and then go “oh this looks like it would be really good” need to put me in touch which whomever is supplying whatever’s got them stoned out of their gourd. It can be fine when paired with melee-heavy MM primaries but most of the strongest powers being enemy-location-based means it takes an insane level of micromanaging to ensure the pets that need the buffs actually get them.

 

The reality of the situation is pets don’t benefit from recharge buffs, they don’t really need the movement speed buffs (if they’re in a position where they need to run that fast either they’re going to get teleported back to the MM via tether distance or they’re getting dragged through mobs and will probably die), their damage caps are low, and Transfusion and Transference can be tricky to utilize when needed.

[WumpusRat]

13 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

Honestly, SCoRE/Resurgence should have never ported the Kinetics power set to Masterminds.  There's a very good, legitimate reason why Paragon Studios never ported Kinetics to Masterminds: There's very little support for henchmen.  As it stands now, Kinetics is a trap power set for players new to the Mastermind AT.  "Kinetics is a great power set, I'll pick that!"  Only for them to get to high level, and realize that their henchmen are unusually squishy because there's nothing outside of Transfusion to support henchmen... and then blame the AT as a whole.  I've seen it time and time and time again over the past six years.

 

It's way too late to remove Kinetics from Masterminds, but at least y'all can overhaul it so it is no longer a trap power set pick.  I don't know what that would look like, but I do see something that needs to be addressed.

Kinetics is by no means a "trap" for masterminds. It may not be an ideal set for a lot of builds, but it can absolutely work, and can plow through whatever content you want with it.

 

I have a beast mastery/kinetics MM that has casually solo'd GMs, and even took down Eochai and Jack in Irons at the same time (caveat: this was prior to the GM update some time back). 

 

In order to maximize MM Kinetics, you should ideally use it with melee-oriented pets, since that allows the pets to clump up on the target, making the best use of transfusion. While speed boost's +rech doesn't work on the pets, the +movement speed definitely does. It allows the melee pets to close with enemies much more rapidly, and change targets more rapidly as well. Not to mention chasing down runners and attacking them before they get too far away.

Transference and fulcrum shift both work extremely well on pets, and allow you to get away with less end reduction slotting on the pets, making it easier to fit in more acc/dmg, procs, or the auras on the sets that don't have a spare "pet" power.

 

Kinetics is a set that requires some finesse to build for, and is less defensive than some of the other sets, but it is by no means a "trap". No more than a corruptor taking Kinetics and then opting to solo. At least the MM has a built-in team to benefit from the buffs.

 

If any MM secondaries need to be addressed it's Poison and Radiation.

Switch the Noxious Gas poison power to a toggle like everyone else has rather than a garbage 20-second long-recharge click power, and allow radiation's Fallout power to work on your pets. 

[Wavicle]

Slotting the Pet specials and ATOs might be higher priority, but it works.

[Psyonico]

I was thinking about this yesterday and I remembered that kinetics has a bit of a higher skill floor than some other support sets.  This is because it focuses on increasing offense rather than a mix of offense and defense like other support sets do.  I think kinetics in an MM just highlights that focus.

[kelika2]

Kinetics as a whole for all players needs to get revamped someday.

Old devs changed up melee relying on tier9 only decades ago

New devs are great at looking at old sets and revamping them

 

And as it is, Kinetics is just too powerful.  a single one can max a raids damage and i surely cannot be the only one who is actually bored being at max damage on a corr all the time.  right?  just running around with something stronger than perma buildup and aim combined thats easy to use, effects everyone, does not need IOs and nullifies the rest of the set, right?

[macskull]

3 hours ago, kelika2 said:

and nullifies the rest of the set, right?

If you think FS “nullifies the rest of the set” I have a bridge to sell you.

[Psyonico]

Fulcrum shift doesn’t even nullify Siphon Power, the only other power in Kin that does something similar.

[MTeague]

Honestly, I would not disregard Repel out of hand.  For primarily ranged pets, like Mercs or Robots, allowing the MM to run around bowling their enemies over while the henchmen gun blast away, is not without merit.  Yes, I get teams dislike Knockback, but just like Energy Blast, Repel can be used for damage mitigation as well.  Enemies that are flat on their back or flying the friendly skies, are not attacking you. 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

Honestly, I would not disregard Repel out of hand.  For primarily ranged pets, like Mercs or Robots, allowing the MM to run around bowling their enemies over while the henchmen gun blast away, is not without merit.  Yes, I get teams dislike Knockback, but just like Energy Blast, Repel can be used for damage mitigation as well.  Enemies that are flat on their back or flying the friendly skies, are not attacking you. 

Definite agreement. Strictly in the case of my second post though, I was looking at a beast or ninja MM. So having a KD effect instead of a KB effect is more useful. (Not saying your post is about mine, just adding clarification. Sorry.)

[TygerDarkstorm]

Does Kinetics repel have actual repel in it? If it does, a KB -> KD IO isn't going to do much anyway, just like with Hurricane. Repel is considered different to KB/KD.

[Wavicle]

No, kinetics repel is just knockback.

[MTeague]

39 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Does Kinetics repel have actual repel in it? If it does, a KB -> KD IO isn't going to do much anyway, just like with Hurricane. Repel is considered different to KB/KD.

It's wonky naming, but https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Kinetics#Repel has absolutely no Repel component, despite the name. 

Just a fairly strong knockback.

KD to KB KB-to-KD is an option, just like it can be for Whirlwind.

Edited 3 hours ago by MTeague

[Wavicle]

Also there IS now at least one power in which Kb2Kd does turn off repel, Force Field>Repulsion Field. Maybe also Storm Blast>Jet Stream, I don’t remember.

[Rudra]

22 minutes ago, MTeague said:

It's wonky naming, but https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Kinetics#Repel has absolutely no Repel component, despite the name. 

Doesn't it pre-date the repel mechanic?