A controversial topic: is it time to make all items free?

[tidge]

 

The team has given you and like-minded folks Brainstorm to play on. Use it and stop being a pest.

 

3 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I've asked this before and I don't think I got a clear answer: how would free rewards destroy the game for you? Is the content and gameplay worth doing or not?

 

The content is worth playing, and part of the content is the reward structure... it always has been.

 

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

I think this is the most common objection to proposals to skip grind and I think it's pretty clearly false. I think things like farming and PLing actually have kept players around that would have left if those options weren't available.

Hey - my perspective is that those options are investment. Farming and PLing aren't the same as insta-50 and free loot. 

The farmer typically invests heavily into their characters, as much or more so than you're typical 4* hard mode player. Now, the sitter..lol, not so much. 

But - the sitter. I know there are sitters who should have made a 2nd account to PL themselves, but for whatever reason, they haven't. Some folks - this is like a 2nd mistress, not even the first one they think of. They're just not going to invest that much into their characters or time into the game. I'm sure these players have something they bring to the table. Maybe it's just the added number for a random league. What I don't know is what % these types of players represent on the server. Maybe 30%? It may be higher. 

I do know they're either going to play or they won't. My uncle Bob (literally, Bob is my uncle) says, "Money is not a motivator. It's the lack of it that pisses people off." 
So, at his restaurants, payday was on Fridays, like most restaurants. And most cooks piss through their pay by Monday, so they work the rest of the week looking forward to pay day. I know I've seen players say, "I have a job. I don't log in to work another one". 

The content that gets the player loot is either fun and/or immersive or it's not. I know that some players, given free stuff, like @Snarky, he'll make a character, find some overall theme/concept, and play it through most, if not all content. And there are other players, you give them 100M, they can suddenly buy what they want, they get it, and they log off because it was too simple. Or maybe..just maybe, they weren't that much into the game in the first place. Nothing wrong with them, or the game. It just wasn't a match. 

But hey, I'd almost love it if everything was free, then I'd fork over 1500 prismatics for that spiffy costume toggle. I got it on Beta and it looks super cool. But I just can't bring myself to spend 2B worth of prismatics on it, even though I have enough to get each of my characters that toggle. (mainly because I don't want green, I want to be purple or blue, or red. For 1500 prismatics, we ought to be able to choose the color. I need to go back to brainstorm and double check to see if I missed that as an option, but I digress) 

[JKCarrier]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Parts of the game bore me. Other parts don't. If I were able to fully the boring parts--the game would be less boring.

 

Ok, but I'm scratching my head at the idea that the post-50 game is somehow less grindy than the pre-50 game. Or are you proposing that Incarnate components should be free for the asking as well?

[tidge]

[battlewraith]

38 minutes ago, tidge said:

LOL Beesleywraith? Damn you are bitter.

[tidge]

Gatekeeping, bitter, and I wash down steak every night with the tears of hypothetical players while rolling around on piles of inf. IS there no end to the enjoyment this game can bring?

[battlewraith]

2 minutes ago, tidge said:

Gatekeeping, bitter, and I wash down steak every night with the tears of hypothetical players while rolling around on piles of inf. IS there no end to the enjoyment this game can bring?

And thanks to your myopic vigilance, there will always be a little carrot dangling in front of the noses of players to get them to do stuff. Good lord to think what would happen if people could just get free stuff. It would all come crashing down like a house of cards. There would be no reason to play the game at all. (Shudders)

 

[tidge]

I just checked, the devs have completely agreed with you and have created a server called Brainstorm that can give you everything for free! You might have to type a command or enter a pop menu, I hope that isn't too tough! Congrats, you won the internet and every agrees with your wisdom! I am truly humbled!

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, JKCarrier said:

Ok, but I'm scratching my head at the idea that the post-50 game is somehow less grindy than the pre-50 game. Or are you proposing that Incarnate components should be free for the asking as well?

 

At 50 you have all your powers unlocked and the greatest variety of build options. If that's something that concerns you, then post-50 is less grindy.

 

TBH, I have no expectation or even really a desire that they make everything free. I do always have an interest in things being less grindy. I think the rewards are pretty ridiculous. You get virtually nothing from something like pvp but can be ridiculously wealthy from playing the market. People can afk-farm, but even something as trivial and innocuous as that flying disc thing has to be bought. It's game design meant to cater to worker bees.

 

So for the sake of argument--which is why I think this thread was started--why not make things free? The answers seem to be:

 

Pro: Cut down on meaningless grind.

Cons:

There is no such thing as grind. 

You should try other content.

When I play, I like to do this (explains some playstyle).

Or just basic incredulity at the prospect. 

 

Oh and let's not forget this tired canard: 

 

21 minutes ago, tidge said:

I just checked, the devs have completely agreed with you and have created a server called Brainstorm that can give you everything for free! You might have to type a command or enter a pop menu, I hope that isn't too tough! Congrats, you won the internet and every agrees with your wisdom! I am truly humbled!

 

This has already been commented on. Try to keep up. 

It's a testing server, with no population. If you're going to recommend a single player game, there are far better options available. 

 

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 08:22 PM by battlewraith

[tidge]

44 minutes ago, tidge said:

I just checked, the devs have completely agreed with you and have created a server called Brainstorm that can give you everything for free! 

 

27 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

This has already been commented on. Try to keep up. 

 

You must be a lot of fun at McDonald's when you find out they won't serve you a Wendy's Frosty.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

 

You must be a lot of fun at McDonald's when you find out they won't serve you a Wendy's Frosty.

 

Well, I guess I could go try it and then talk to some arbiter of fun to see if it qualified. If it did, then I could repeat it daily for the next twenty years. 

 

[skoryy]

3 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Good lord to think what would happen if people could just get free stuff.

 

Name a successful RPG where you just get free stuff.

[battlewraith]

16 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

Name a successful RPG where you just get free stuff.

 

Last time I checked, you get free stuff on Homecoming. You can pick up some stuff right away from the START vendor. There are also contexts in this this game and others I've player where things are unlocked from the start. Guildwars 2 pvp for instance gave you access to everything that would be available upon entering the arena space. 

[Demobot]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Try to keep up. 

It's a testing server, with no population. If you're going to recommend a single player game, there are far better options available. 

 

 

 

 

So, when given the choice, players overwhelmingly prefer the servers with "meaningless grind"? Why wouldn't they flock to Brainstorm, regardless of its status as a test server? Are they such poor, blinkered fools that they do not realize that they can be freed from their shackles? The promised land is within sight! The eschaton has already been immanentized! Players of the city, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains! 

[battlewraith]

5 minutes ago, Demobot said:

So, when given the choice, players overwhelmingly prefer the servers with "meaningless grind"? Why wouldn't they flock to Brainstorm, regardless of its status as a test server? Are they such poor, blinkered fools that they do not realize that they can be freed from their shackles? The promised land is within sight! The eschaton has already been immanentized! Players of the city, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains! 

 

Well, back on live there was a time when there was a pvp community was situated on the test server. There were regular pvp nights, there were leagues, and so on. The devs basically killed it off by taking the server down, wiping it, etc. So there is a precedent for that being a bad idea. Not to mention the fact that, as is always pointed out when this comes up, people want to play with friends. If they wanted a single player game they'd probably go elsewhere.

 

Look at the current state of the game. Lots of changes have been made as concessions to people who want to skip grind. They added the temporal warrior option and unlocked accolades at pvp zone vendors precisely so that people could skip meaningless grind. They were not told to go to Brainstorm.

 

So let's say they took away all the xp boosters. And when people complained, they said "hey you wanna get there faster just go to Brainstorm tee-hee-hee!"

The game has changed since 2004. Some people here just opining in favor of the current status quo, ignoring the fact that people like them in the past got overruled to arrive at where the game is now.

[skoryy]

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Last time I checked, you get free stuff on Homecoming. You can pick up some stuff right away from the START vendor.

 

Okay, you're never using those enhancements at 50.

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Guildwars 2 pvp for instance gave you access to everything that would be available upon entering the arena space. 

 

Oh hey, I play Guild Wars 2! PvP gear is free so that everyone's builds are on an even level. Now do WvW and PvE and oh right, you have to earn your gear the old-fashioned way (or by throwing money at the screen).

 

So, zero for two.  Thoughts and prayers and best wishes on your future trying to whine your way to free stuff on some other server.

 

 

[battlewraith]

10 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Thoughts and prayers and best wishes on your future trying to whine your way to free stuff on some other server.

 

You asked a question. I answered, You apparently didn't like the response and got pissy. Go figure. 

[Triumphant]

2 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Name a successful RPG where you just get free stuff.

Well, to be fair, I don't know that this has ever been tried before (if I'm wrong, do tell me, please.  I'm curious to see what the results were.).  If I'm right in my suspicion that it's never been tried, I would interested in trying this innovative approach by adding a regular server that offers this choice, and then see whether it succeeded or flopped.

 

2 hours ago, Demobot said:

So, when given the choice, players overwhelmingly prefer the servers with "meaningless grind"? Why wouldn't they flock to Brainstorm, regardless of its status as a test server? Are they such poor, blinkered fools that they do not realize that they can be freed from their shackles? The promised land is within sight! The eschaton has already been immanentized! Players of the city, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains! 

 

Yeah... no.  This argument has been forwarded perhaps dozens of times over the years.  And we always explain that, no, actually having your Supergroups base deleted everytime the server is updated, is not a good option.  Figure out how to update Brainstorm without erasing stuff and then- yeah, for me, that could actually would be a great option.  I'm pretty sure it's not possible though, or they would already have coded it that way.

[AboveTheChemist]

1 hour ago, Triumphant said:

having your Supergroups base deleted everytime the server is updated, is not a good option.

Brainstorm hasn't been wiped in over 4 years. I've had a SG base there that entire time.

[JKCarrier]

7 hours ago, battlewraith said:

At 50 you have all your powers unlocked and the greatest variety of build options. If that's something that concerns you, then post-50 is less grindy.

 

So if I'm understanding correctly, your definition of "Grind" is "Any content where I don't have my full complement of powers". I don't think this matches most peoples' understanding of the term, which may be where some of the disconnect is in this discussion, e.g. "How can you be in favor of grind?" "What grind?"

 

Quote

I think the rewards are pretty ridiculous. You get virtually nothing from something like pvp but can be ridiculously wealthy from playing the market.

 

I think that (in this game at least) it's been repeatedly demonstrated that people who do not naturally gravitate to PvP cannot be incentivized to participate in it. At best, they'll do the bare minimum, complaining all the way about not being able to get their badges or Shivans or whatever without risking getting ganked. And the devs' various attempts to "fix" PvP to attract a wider audience just ended up annoying the part of the population that did like it. I suspect that "fixing" the game economy would have similar results: The people who don't like the 1-50 game still won't like it, and the marketeers will have their fun spoiled.

[Triumphant]

57 minutes ago, AboveTheChemist said:

Brainstorm hasn't been wiped in over 4 years. I've had a SG base there that entire time.

Great.  I hope your base never gets wiped out.  I'm not willing to take that gamble, and neither are most people who put a lot of time into their bases.

[battlewraith]

7 hours ago, JKCarrier said:

So if I'm understanding correctly, your definition of "Grind" is "Any content where I don't have my full complement of powers". I don't think this matches most peoples' understanding of the term, which may be where some of the disconnect is in this discussion, e.g. "How can you be in favor of grind?" "What grind?"

 

It's not really my definition. I linked to wikipedia earlier, here is an AI overview:

 

In video games, "grinding" refers to the act of repeatedly performing the same tasks or actions to achieve a specific goal, such as gaining experience points, in-game currency, or unlocking items. It often involves engaging in repetitive gameplay, like defeating enemies or gathering resources, to progress in the game. While grinding can be a necessary part of many games, it can also be perceived as tedious or boring. 

 

So a classic example is a lowbie mission where you would need to go out and kill 10 rats (or skulls in this case). That's fine when you're starting a new game. It gets old when you've done that task for years. Another example is having to run around to talk to contacts in order to proceed in a mission. To compensate for this aggravation, the developers made team teleport options readily available and introduced radio missions so that you could skip contacts altogether. 

 

8 hours ago, JKCarrier said:

I think that (in this game at least) it's been repeatedly demonstrated that people who do not naturally gravitate to PvP cannot be incentivized to participate in it. At best, they'll do the bare minimum, complaining all the way about not being able to get their badges or Shivans or whatever without risking getting ganked. And the devs' various attempts to "fix" PvP to attract a wider audience just ended up annoying the part of the population that did like it. I suspect that "fixing" the game economy would have similar results: The people who don't like the 1-50 game still won't like it, and the marketeers will have their fun spoiled.

 

The point, imo, is not to make people who don't enjoy certain content to like it. It's to make content that people actually do like, less grindy. 

[lemming]

11 hours ago, Triumphant said:

Great.  I hope your base never gets wiped out.  I'm not willing to take that gamble, and neither are most people who put a lot of time into their bases.

I think ATC has setup a minimum base, portals and other amenities.   Once you've set up a few of them, it doesn't take much time.   I've done the same.

[AboveTheChemist]

11 hours ago, Triumphant said:

I'm not willing to take that gamble, and neither are most people who put a lot of time into their bases.

That's reasonable. My point was more that your assertion that "having your Supergroups base deleted everytime the server is updated" simply isn't true. Brainstorm has been updated numerous times over those four years. Perhaps our definitions of "updated" differ, though.

 

And yes, to lemming's point, my base is the same barebones travel/amenities hub that I use on Everlasting and Torchbearer, and it takes 20-30 minutes to set up. I am a novice basebuilder at best so a competent base builder could probably create it more quickly.

 

I certainly understand not wanting to put a lot of time into something that could potentially be wiped tomorrow, though. If mine gets wiped, c'est la vie.

[tidge]

3 hours ago, battlewraith said:

In video games, "grinding" refers to the act of repeatedly performing the same tasks or actions to achieve a specific goal, such as gaining experience points, in-game currency, or unlocking items. It often involves engaging in repetitive gameplay, like defeating enemies or gathering resources, to progress in the game. While grinding can be a necessary part of many games, it can also be perceived as tedious or boring.

 

CoX offers so much more content variety below 50, that this ^guy^ has got a warped perception of CoX and what is grinding.  Lulz if playing the game after 50 doesn't satisfy the criteria of "gaining experience points or defeating enemies".

 

Nobody cares if a level 50 on a PUG is poorly slotted.