MAKE ENDURACE A NON ISSUE

[baster]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I currently have a Soldier of Arachnos on the Crab Spider branch. (Eventually I'm going to bring back my Bane Spider branch Soldier of Arachnos too.) I also have a Widow of Arachnos. And with some enhancements, never had a problem with endurance. I love those characters. They are great fun to play. The Crab Spider is level 50, but the Night Widow is only level 34. And neither has any mentionable downtime. Maybe instead of calling for endurance to effectively go away and only new players to respond, you actually listen to a few vets and let us help you.

I'm glad to hear it gets better at 50 for the endurance hogs. I would imagine it does.

It doesent change my experience thus far playing Axe/WP even with 3 slotted stam with lol 25 sos and recovery 3xsloted with lol 25 sos the ones that don't diminish with leveling. And 1xend reduce sos in all my attacks. I still blow through end much to fast using my top 3 attacks on cooldown. 

I know I'm only in my 30s and no doubt it will get better at 50 with time and investment.

 

What I'm saying the progression should not be hindered by not being able to use an enjoyable rotations on cooldown by lack of resource but rather by the fact that  you are just less powerful then a lvl 50 seasoned fully invested character due to the fact that you just don't have the set bonuses, top of the line damage, accuracy, recharge, props, D#, resists etc..  there is enough holding you back without having to hinder the game enjoyment by not being able to fully utilize your offensive, defensive and any utility/cc toolkit once acquired due to lack of any resources.

[baster]

23 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

CoH isnt going to grow if you get your way and it isn’t going to die if you don’t get your way. 
 

HC has made some imo mind meltingly stupid decisions and even THOSE have barely moved the needle. This game will continue because quite simply a lot of people are diehards for it. 
 

Outside of HC straight up quitting theres almost no way it’ll shut down.

 

Also there’s four ways to solve end even before teaming and quite a few have been said already but to add:

 

-Ageless

-Carry blues

-Slot quintessential +End and recov IOs

-Survival amps.

 

I'm currently I'm my 30s and just got my top offensive power maybe a level ago. 

Not sure if all the endurance problems solvers are applicable pre 50 but I look in to it. So ty.

 

As I said to the other gentleman I think there is enough power ups to look forward to at 50 and far beyond building and perfecting your character ( i assume as I don't yet have a 50 ) that there is no need to hinder the 1--50 leveling process with extensive endurance taxation that prevents you from being able to use your enjoyable rotations incorporating your newly acquired powers whether offensive,  defensive taggles, utility toolkit etc.. 

Which would make the gaming and leveling experience much more enjoyable .

 

 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, baster said:

I'm glad to hear it gets better at 50 for the endurance hogs. I would imagine it does.

Okay, first? I didn't say it got better at 50. My Night Widow is only level 34 and does not have endurance issues. Second, it doesn't get better at 50. You have to make a build that works, not just reach some magic level where everything fixes itself. That is part of the game.

 

1 hour ago, baster said:

It doesent change my experience thus far playing Axe/WP even with 3 slotted stam with lol 25 sos and recovery 3xsloted with lol 25 sos the ones that don't diminish with leveling.

You have a WP character. I'm just going to say any endurance issues are with your build. Also, SOs diminish with leveling. That is their thing. It is IOs that don't diminish as you level, always retaining their listed benefits. So your comment is very much leading me to believe your character is suffering endurance issues because you sorely need to update your enhancements. (Edit: At level 30, your level 25 SOs are red. They stopped giving you any benefits at level 29. They were barely giving you any benefits at level 28. Update your SOs.)

 

1 hour ago, baster said:

And 1xend reduce sos in all my attacks. I still blow through end much to fast using my top 3 attacks on cooldown. 

That is not going to help you. Especially with your top 3 attacks. You need to slot your powers with an understanding of how much endurance they will eat versus how much you intend to use them. So now I know full well it is your slotting that is the issue.

 

1 hour ago, baster said:

I know I'm only in my 30s and no doubt it will get better at 50 with time and investment.

Again, my level 34 Widow of Arachnos (Night Widow branch) has no endurance issues. My level 50 Soldier of Arachnos (Crab Spider branch) hasn't had any endurance issues since the late 20s or early 30s. My Soldier of Arachnos (Bane Spider branch) character back on Live that I keep putting off bringing back to start new characters to try instead never had any endurance issues post level 24. It is entirely your build that is causing you problems.

 

1 hour ago, baster said:

What I'm saying the progression should not be hindered by not being able to use an enjoyable rotations on cooldown by lack of resource but rather by the fact that  you are just less powerful then a lvl 50 seasoned fully invested character due to the fact that you just don't have the set bonuses, top of the line damage, accuracy, recharge, props, D#, resists etc..  there is enough holding you back without having to hinder the game enjoyment by not being able to fully utilize your offensive, defensive and any utility/cc toolkit once acquired due to lack of any resources.

This is strictly a player-made problem. Even if you only have 1 character, you can turn off xp and go clear missions, especially via Ouroboros, and/or street sweep until you get the drops you need to equip your character or the inf' you need to purchase the enhancements you need to equip your character. If you have multiple characters and any are level 50+? Then gathering resources to outfit your other characters is simpler.

 

Edited Saturday at 08:56 PM by Rudra

[Ultimo]

I think we're kind of arguing around the issue.  We're trying to make reference to specific builds and such, when what we're really talking about is a design choice.  Some think the design is fine as it is.  Some think the design is too disruptive to the gameplay.  I don't imagine either side of the discussion is likely to move much, and really, it's not like it matters anyway.  After more than 20 years, I rather doubt they would change anything, at least not significantly.

[baster]

42 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Okay, first? I didn't say it got better at 50. My Night Widow is only level 34 and does not have endurance issues. Second, it doesn't get better at 50. You have to make a build that works, not just reach some magic level where everything fixes itself. That is part of the game.

 

You have a WP character. I'm just going to say any endurance issues are with your build. Also, SOs diminish with leveling. That is their thing. It is IOs that don't diminish as you level, always retaining their listed benefits. So your comment is very much leading me to believe your character is suffering endurance issues because you sorely need to update your enhancements. (Edit: At level 30, your level 25 SOs are red. They stopped giving you any benefits at level 29. They were barely giving you any benefits at level 28. Update your SOs.)

 

That is not going to help you. Especially with your top 3 attacks. You need to slot your powers with an understanding of how much endurance they will eat versus how much you intend to use them. So now I know full well it is your slotting that is the issue.

 

Again, my level 34 Widow of Arachnos (Night Widow branch) has no endurance issues. My level 50 Soldier of Arachnos (Crab Spider branch) hasn't had any endurance issues since the late 20s or early 30s. My Soldier of Arachnos (Bane Spider branch) character back on Live that I keep putting off bringing back to start new characters to try instead never had any endurance issues post level 24. It is entirely your build that is causing you problems.

 

This is strictly a player-made problem. Even if you only have 1 character, you can turn off xp and go clear missions, especially via Ouroboros, and/or street sweep until you get the drops you need to equip your character or the inf' you need to purchase the enhancements you need to equip your character. If you have multiple characters and any are level 50+? Then gathering resources to outfit your other characters is simpler.

 

They are in fast IOs as you say. Not SOs I'm still learning to defrinciate, and are working perfectly fine. Still not well enough to adress the out of whack hoping nature of this power set making the leveling experience less than enjoyable. 

 

I also have 38 Arachnos Firtunata and the endurance issues are not nearly as bad. It's actually quite fun to play that one for the most part.

 

As stated. Thete is no good damn reason to hinder the basic use of all the powers one aquires throughout progression of leveling. It's terrible game design, mechanics, outdated, emersion braking, dissipointing and outright not enjoyable.

 

You like it cool.

I do not.

We can agree tk disagree. 

Personally I hope they change this by either lowering endurance usage of at least the worst offenders significantly or outright removing endurance from the game by converting it to some other temp proc resource etc.. for example once your bad fills up you can chose to unleash it and supercharge your abilities to do double damage for 15-30 seconds, or crit for 15-30 seconds or double dot tics or whatever. Imagination is the limit.

 

Still love the game.

Still going to play it.

Still going to log out in frustration playing some sets in 30s and rolling something else.

Good day, cheers. Love you all. Have fun. See ya in thr game once I have the time to actually log in and play it.

[Kaika]

I absolutely dislike end management, I feel it's archaic is extremely annoying, and just ends up being something you have to deal with rather then something enjoyable. Most modern MMOs no longer have this kinda all or nothing resource management unless its core to the classes play-style. However CoH was made with endurance in mind, You can't just remove it without throwing any semblance of balance out the window. I find the stronger offensive sets tend to be a big end hogs because better powers tend to use more endurance faster. End is a nuisance that you still have to deal with but in dealing with it you sacrifice resources that could go to other things, whether that be activation time, slots, powers, or mental capacity. Without it the game would be missing something at it's core that would likely boil over the balance, which is already tipped heavily in the players favor. I think end is in a very good spot at moment, if you never want to deal with it there are myriad ways to basically negate endurance as a concept, at just about every point in the game if you're resourceful, but you have to spend time/money/focus on that, that could go elsewhere which is a nice tradeoff. 

 

Long story short end isn't going anywhere because its a core part of the game, like it or not. Removing it as a obstacle would further empower players more then they already are as they would no longer need to spend time/resources manage it.

Edited Saturday at 09:54 PM by Kaika

[El D]

The problem of this thread is that's fundamentally impossible to 'agree to disagree' a core mechanic. Endurance is factored into every aspect of gameplay for CoH - every power that provides some measurable effect on the outcome of combat has an endurance cost that is factored against everything else it does; damage, recharge time, stat boosts or debuffs, everything. If there is no endurance cost, such as the case with auto-powers or inherents, the effects and detriments are adjusted to account for that. Endurance is literally one of the core pillars upon which players engage with the game world and powers are designed around. Saying 'I hope some day they'll do a massive rework for endurance or remove it entirely' is akin to suggesting 'they should remove the dice rolling from D&D and replace it with something else.' The HC devs can't just do a 'find and replace' with a whole separate mechanic without possibly breaking how the game functions and bricking every character in it. Even if removing endurance and forging a suitable replacement mechanic was somehow successful, that'd still require every player to do respecs for every character they have across every account. The forums already get inundated with gripe threads when specific sets get bespoke reworks - removing endurance would be Homecoming nuking the playerbase from orbit with the force of a thousand exploding Enhancement Diversifications.

 

Also, to reiterate, the game was built with endurance being a core mechanic in-mind. That is why it offers players so many ways to manage it (as many others in this thread have already pointed out). It is entirely possible to build any character in this game to function continuously in active combat outside of fighting enemies that use endurance drain/-recovery. My go-to while leveling is two Endurance Reduction in every attack/control power and armor toggle, at least one in any teammate buffs, and one in every travel power/sprint/etc. Add in a 'chance for +Endurance' proc in Stamina and Health and then coast to 50 without any issues. Always slot end. reduction first at lower levels and toss in accuracy/damage or defense/resistance as you get more slots. It gets even easier if a character's build uses lower level IO sets, as the set bonuses can build up as they progress.

Edited 13 hours ago by El D

[Ghost]

I’m sorry but there is absolutely no way you are having Endurance issues with a WP toon.

Show us a screenshot of your build, so we can help you.

Edited yesterday at 12:18 AM by Ghost

[Kaika]

13 minutes ago, Ghost said:

I’m sorry but there is absolutely no way you are having Endurance issues with a WP toon.

Show us a screenshot of your build, so we can help you.

I have toons that can run out of end on ageless, you can 100% end up in this situations with some setups/play-styles, without it being a deliberate misplay.

[Ghost]

34 minutes ago, Kaika said:

I have toons that can run out of end on ageless, you can 100% end up in this situations with some setups/play-styles, without it being a deliberate misplay.

OP is claiming he runs out on every mob - that takes some serious effort to do.

Is he running hasten already?

Is he doing any damage with his attacks?

Does he have unnecessary toggles on during battle?

 

Who knows, because instead of giving us info to help, so far all he’s done is tell us an Ax/WP can’t sustain End as good as his Fortunada can - which makes no sense to me.

 

 

[Oubliette_Red]

I find End management in CoH far less annoying than farming for gear that other MMO's require you to do. In CoH I can upgrade my "gear" with a click of a button if I'm still rockin' SOs. I also don't have to forego the armor drop I just got because it's fugly.

[Steampunkette]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

OP is claiming he runs out on every mob - that takes some serious effort to do.

Is he running hasten already?

Is he doing any damage with his attacks?

Does he have unnecessary toggles on during battle?

 

Who knows, because instead of giving us info to help, so far all he’s done is tell us an Ax/WP can’t sustain End as good as his Fortunada can - which makes no sense to me.

 

 

The only way I can imagine running out of End every fight:

 

1) Only damage slotting for attacks.

2) Only defensive slotting for defense.

3) Only Control slotting for controls.

4) No slotting for support.

 

With 0 Accuracy slotting they whiff most of their attacks wasting the end cost entirely.

With 0 End slotting they burn end hard and fast by using their biggest attacks and work their way down to the weaker ones.

 

That'd leave most characters huffing and puffing after one spawn.

 

... oh my god. Do you think they came back from, like... quitting in Issue 2 before Enhancement Diversification? What if they're 6-slotting damage and stuff?!

Edited yesterday at 02:37 AM by Steampunkette

[MTeague]

39 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

... oh my god. Do you think they came back from, like... quitting in Issue 2 before Enhancement Diversification? What if they're 6-slotting damage and stuff?!

 

I do not.  Page 1, first post, 2nd paragraph, @baster said:

 

On 6/27/2025 at 10:01 AM, baster said:

Example Axe with WP secondary. 

Both stamina and whatever the name of the WP power power that increases endurance recovery, I have both slotted with SOs all my Axe attacks are slotted with SOs endurance reduces and I still blow through it within  1.5-2 rotations and unable to attack. What ta he'll? How is this enjoyable?, finally you get your top powers only to not be able to use them because the endurance costs are do out of whack?

 

(color change to gold is mine for highlighting purposes)

 

Possibly that's hyperbole?  But I'm going to at least take the man at face value there.  Now, I do wonder if @Rudra is onto something, and his SO's are outdated and providing him with no more benefit at all. Without an actual screenshot, that's simply unknown, this way or that.  But enhancements doing nothing for you, does feel, on Willpower, with Stamina and Quick Recovery slotted with SO's, the only way this can happen, is if his enhancements went obsolete on him, OR, if the man is constantly facing off against Freakshow Super-Stunners, or Sappers, or a bunch of Mu Mystics, or other mobs that drain the HECK out of your End. 

[Ultimo]

5 minutes ago, MTeague said:

 

I do not.  Page 1, first post, 2nd paragraph, @baster said:

 

 

(color change to gold is mine for highlighting purposes)

 

Possibly that's hyperbole?  But I'm going to at least take the man at face value there.  Now, I do wonder if @Rudra is onto something, and his SO's are outdated and providing him with no more benefit at all. Without an actual screenshot, that's simply unknown, this way or that.  But enhancements doing nothing for you, does feel, on Willpower, with Stamina and Quick Recovery slotted with SO's, the only way this can happen, is if his enhancements went obsolete on him, OR, if the man is constantly facing off against Freakshow Super-Stunners, or Sappers, or a bunch of Mu Mystics, or other mobs that drain the HECK out of your End. 

I have a Brute, Super Strength/Willpower, with both Stamina and Quick Recovery fully slotted, AND one endurance reduction in every power.  He STILL runs out of endurance OFTEN.  Now, that's not when he's fighting a typical gang of bad guys, 3-5 guys.  It's when he's got to fight MORE than that... probably in large part because Super Strength has only one area effect attack, meaning he has to take them all out one at a time.  Perhaps Axe is the same?  I've not used that set, but I have used War Mace, and I assume they're similar.

 

I'm not saying endurance shouldn't be a consideration, but it shouldn't be the centerpiece of every fight.  It's a lot more fun just zapping the bad guys than it is calculating whether or not I can afford to attack more than once a minute.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

AND one endurance reduction in every power. 

That isn't enough. It's fine for the low level powers, but not the high level ones. Especially if you are doing what the OP said and only using SOs. For both Foot Stomp and Knockout Blow, a single equal level SO reduces their END cost to 12.22 END. Haymaker is still 5.63 END with a single equal level SO. And with just a single equal level recharge reduction SO, you're throwing that 5.63 END every 7.5 seconds. Then you add in the other powers just from the Super Strength set, and we haven't even gotten to WP's four toggles yet. Quick Recovery nets you 0.5 END/sec out of the box and Stamina nets you 0.41 END/sec. Even if you 6-slot endurance modification SOs into both Stamina and Quick Recovery, you only pushed yourself up by 1.51 END/sec. for your recovery. (You also faceplant into ED.) Slotting endurance reduction trumps slotting endurance modification every time.

 

(Edit: So, yeah, you saying you fully slotted Quick Recovery and Stamina just tells me you wasted enhancement slots.)

 

Edited yesterday at 05:24 AM by Rudra
Edited again for grammar. And again to correct "slam" to "plant".

[baster]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

 

I do not.  Page 1, first post, 2nd paragraph, @baster said:

 

 

(color change to gold is mine for highlighting purposes)

 

Possibly that's hyperbole?  But I'm going to at least take the man at face value there.  Now, I do wonder if @Rudra is onto something, and his SO's are outdated and providing him with no more benefit at all. Without an actual screenshot, that's simply unknown, this way or that.  But enhancements doing nothing for you, does feel, on Willpower, with Stamina and Quick Recovery slotted with SO's, the only way this can happen, is if his enhancements went obsolete on him, OR, if the man is constantly facing off against Freakshow Super-Stunners, or Sappers, or a bunch of Mu Mystics, or other mobs that drain the HECK out of your End. 

LMFAO, TX bouth of you, I needed that haha

[lemming]

Ax is a bit end heavy at times, but paired with WP, it's tough to run out.  My invulnerablity tank had to slot for end reduction, but once they hit 50, whatever.

 

Just ran a Ax/WP scrapper around FF on beta against +1 & +2 mobs. Using SOs.  Only time end was an issue was if I left my travel powers running. Maybe it would be worse against freaks.

Edited yesterday at 05:26 AM by lemming

[Steampunkette]

If an attack is under 5 endurance I don't slot an End Reduction SO.

 

5-8, I slot one.

 

9-15 I slot two.

 

15+ I slot two... but I don't use that power except as either an opener (Nukes) or incredibly sporadically (AoE Holds)

 

If you slot a single End Reduction SO into all your attacks, then that's a big problem, yeah. You need to scale based on the power's needs.

[tidge]

The OP has stated that they are using every power, as much as possible... so I'm thinking;

 

1) Sprint and Athletic Run are toggled on at all times.

2) They've taken some or all of: Hasten, Tough, Weave with those clicked/toggled as often as possible.

 

For the VEATS, they're probably running a whole lotta toggles.

 

Keep in mind: at low levels, toggles still burn the same amount of endurance but provide relatively little extra enhancement (of whatever)... and that enhancement values scale with level... which often makes running toggles like Tough (or any low-level Resistance power IMO) not that critical to run solo (when at low level)... and is also the reason why IO pieces like +End, +Recovery are kind of a big deal to slot ASAP.

[arcane]

Yeah I mean just think about it. If you make endurance a non-issue for new or bad players, you’re gonna make the actual good players way too OP.

[skoryy]

Endurance issues

With willpower

 

Really?

 

Yeah, the only thing I can think of is to shut off Sprint and Run. Things will become a lot easier. You don't need to get to the next mob that fast.

[Ukase]

On 6/27/2025 at 7:56 PM, baster said:

That said I'm sure everyone played WoW at one point in their gaming carrier

Not me. CoH is the only MMO I've played, unless you count Risk Online and chess as MMOs. (I don't count the week after CoH shut down that I tried Champions online.) 



As far as endurance goes, different AT's and powersets will have different struggles with it. The key is to actually know how much end your attacks cost you, compared to your ability to recover it. This is why I pursue Atlas Medallion as soon as reach level 23. 

I monitor endurance recovery and end usage. I aim for a different of  2% or more. And this is with all toggles on. But, it's a blaster, so it's already like a cheat code. 

Now, as easy as these solutions to end management are - that doesn't make them fun for everyone. But - there are parts of the game that aren't terribly fun for me, either. But, I deal with it to play the other parts of the game. 

I think you have to pick your battles, and given all the solutions available, I don't see you winning this one. 

 

 

[Forager]

Wait until OP finds out about hit points...

[Ghost]

32 minutes ago, Forager said:

Wait until OP finds out about hit points...

Dear Devs,

Its just not fun for noobs when in the middle of a battle, my HPs suddenly drop to 0 and I die.

It shouldn’t be this way.  This is about having fun, and dying is certainly not fun!

 

If you don’t believe me, ask other noobs.  Don’t ask vets because they have billions and never die (which is also not fair, I mean fun).

 

Thanks in advance for removing HPs from the game.

 

Signed,

OP

[Maelwys]

On 6/27/2025 at 3:01 PM, baster said:

Endurance is far to much of an issue, it takes away from make enjoyment big time especially in low to mid levels as you aquire your last few powers. 

 

Insufficient endurance recovery has not been "far too much of an issue" since 2010.

 

High endurance consumption can however be a slight issue for some builds whilst levelling up. Assuming that you're not using the usual IOs and not using START or Base Empowerment buffs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

Example Axe with WP secondary. 

 

Battleaxe is certainly an endurance heavy powerset.

However Willpower is one of the strongest sets for raw passive +recovery.

 

Realistically you should not be having any endurance consumption issues on a Willpower, even a low-level Axe/Willpower, unless you are running multiple travel power toggles and/or have completely neglected Endurance Reduction slotting in both your defensive toggles and your attacks.

 

This sounds like a build problem. As such I'd very much recommend posting an enhancement screen screenshot (or a /buildsave ) and letting us know what toggles you're running constantly.

 

It's true that at level 50 there are additional things (like Alpha slot and Destiny abilities) which can drastically boost recovery and/or endurance reduction, but there are very few builds that actually require them. And the worst offenders are min-maxed VEATs with multiple procbombed low Cast Time attacks and sky-high global recharge, not a SO'd melee AT with zero global recharge and Quick Recovery.