Kinetic Melee

[Ultimo]

I've been thinking about Kinetic Melee (I only have one character that uses it), and I keep seeing people comment that it's in rough shape.  I'm curious to know what people might suggest to give it a bit of a buff.  Maybe someone can suggest something that will inspire the devs!

 

My thinking was that kinetic melee is based around kinetic energy.  What if the power set gained a stacking buff to kinetic energy with each usage of the powers, possibly while stealing that energy from enemies that get hit?  This could take several forms.

1. Damage could be increased/reduced, as the energy of the blows would be reduced.

2. Recharge rate could be increased/reduced, as increased energy would allow for more speed.

3. Endurance cost could be reduced/increased, as the energy to use the powers is provided by the movements of DOING them.

 

Any of these, or some combination, might make the set a little more effective.

 

What do you think?  What do you suggest?

[Major_Decoy]

Have you read what Power Siphon does?

[Championess]

As an easy quick fix I'd do the most to Concentrated Strike.  I'd trim some frames from the animtion to get it down to 2s just like they did with TF.  Then maybe even add a little more damage.

 

I'd have Smashing Blow do some -res.  The pbaoe Burst I'd maybe up the damage a smidge.

 

Alternatively and a bit more undertaking I'd assume is that ideally you'd want the set to perform at a top level the longer you're fighting a foe as your Kinetic energy would get you faster and faster as you're engaging a target.  If that's some kind of momentum mechanic making animations faster and faster that would be neat.

[Luminara]

54 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

My thinking was that kinetic melee is based around kinetic energy.  What if the power set gained a stacking buff to kinetic energy with each usage of the powers, possibly while stealing that energy from enemies that get hit?  This could take several forms.

1. Damage could be increased/reduced, as the energy of the blows would be reduced.

 

"What if Kinetic Melee did what Kinetic Melee does?"

 

And people why I'm bitey.

[Major_Decoy]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

 

"What if Kinetic Melee did what Kinetic Melee does?"

 

And people why I'm bitey.

But we could make Kinetic Melee do what it does more.

 

Turn Power Siphon into Build-up and include Power Siphon's effects into Concentrated strike?

[Championess]

I will say KM feels the best on stalkers.  Assassin Strike being a whole 1s faster than the rest during the long interrupt and still even the fastest animation of them all in fast cast easily has this as the best AS for stalkers. 

 

Having BU is real nice too although the insta recharge gimmick of CS instead of a crit from hide plus the +BU ato can make it hard to keep up with all the BU's you can pop off.  Beyond the AS KM on stalkers suffers the same long animating jazz hands that can make it inefficient in group fights.

Edited Thursday at 10:25 PM by Championess

[Psyonico]

Concentrated Strike is hot poo.  Either the animation time needs to be lowered or its base damage needs to be raised.

 

I'd love for Repulsing Torrent to actually do -damage like the rest of the set.  It also should add a stack to power siphon when used (no idea why that got skipped).

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

But we could make Kinetic Melee do what it does more.

 

Yeah, no, that doesn't address the problems KM has.  It's not even a smooch on the booboo, much less a band-aid.  Ultimo didn't stumble onto a brilliant out-of-the-box solution, he tripped over his own ignorance.  Again.

 

The problem with KM isn't the animation times, or the damage output, or the secondary effect, it's the time before effect.  Every power in the game has a period between when the power is activated and when the power actually does something.  This is for animation time before effect, and it's specifically for synchronization between animations.  So you press a key, the power is activated, the animation plays, then the power does "a thing".  KM's attacks tend to have longer times before effect than comparable attacks from other sets.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_melee.kinetic_attack.total_focus&at=scrapper

 

That's Concentrated Strike.  It has an animation time of 2.833 seconds.  It has an animation time before effect of 2.533 seconds.  Essentially, it does jack shit until the animation is nearly complete.

 

Also of note, this attack doesn't crit like other T9 attacks.  It has a flat 20% chance to reset the buff power, Siphon Power.  In theory, that's great, because it means you could build an attack chain that used CS frequently enough to keep the buff active for significantly more time than a standard Build Up.  In practice, it's shit, because you're actively slowing yourself down in an effort to nab that sweet crit reset, and because Power Siphon's animation time is twice as long as Build Up's.  So most people just skip CS and focus on the "faster" attacks.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_melee.kinetic_attack.smashing_blow&at=scrapper

 

And they're still hamstringing themselves.  Note that Smashing Blow's time before effect is 0.033 seconds longer than the animation time.  Yeah, it takes longer than the animation to get to the dealing damage part.

 

Consequently, the stacking +Damage from the buff power is slower to build and more prone to lapsing, corpse-blasting is significantly more common, and there is no "good" attack chain with KM.  It was designed for form over function, flash and dazzle instead of blood and guts, Karate Kid III kata instead of Karate Kid crane kick.  It's slo-mo Co* combat, but the slo-mo effect only affects the player character.

 

It needs the animations revised so it can use reasonable times before effect.  Simply slapping Build Up in place of Siphon Power wouldn't resolve the problems, it needs to function like a proper melee set, with attacks that land before the animations have completed.  The stalker version isn't reputed to be better only because it has Build Up, it's the quick Assassin's Strike that sells it.  It's not just fast, it also has an animation time before effect that doesn't last the entire duration of the attack.  That's what the other versions of KM need to be competitive.

[Ultimo]

I realize that's kind of what it does, but that's just one power.  I'm suggesting adding that effect to ALL the powers, and replacing Power Siphon with something else... perhaps a life stealing power, to act as a heal?

 

I realize the casting times are long, that's why I suggested making each power add a stacking buff that would speed things up.  I hadn't really considered the casting times, but I see no reason that couldn't be improved via buff... unless the casting times are hard coded into the powers?  If so, then adding a stacking damage buff would get ever more payoff for the longer casting times.

 

Again, I'm just spitballing.  I never claimed to know much about the set, and even went so far as to point out that I had limited experience with it.  I just threw my idea out there as a starting point for others to build on, or offer their own ideas.  You don't like my idea, that's fine.  Make your OWN suggestion.

 

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

Ultimo didn't stumble onto a brilliant out-of-the-box solution, he tripped over his own ignorance.  Again.

And see if you can do it without being disagreeable. 

Edited yesterday at 04:18 AM by Ultimo

[Major_Decoy]

4 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Yeah, no, that doesn't address the problems KM has.  It's not even a smooch on the booboo, much less a band-aid.  Ultimo didn't stumble onto a brilliant out-of-the-box solution, he tripped over his own ignorance.  Again.

 

The problem with KM isn't the animation times, or the damage output, or the secondary effect, it's the time before effect.  Every power in the game has a period between when the power is activated and when the power actually does something.  This is for animation time before effect, and it's specifically for synchronization between animations.  So you press a key, the power is activated, the animation plays, then the power does "a thing".  KM's attacks tend to have longer times before effect than comparable attacks from other sets.

 

Do the animations need to be changed to do the damage earlier? Is Kinetic Melee mystical enough that the damage could hit before the impact? Like the damage is done with an implosion and then your fist is drawn forwards to fill the gap?

[biostem]

IMHO, the "siphon" effect should be an inherent chance in all the attack powers, with the build-up like power making it a 100% chance while it is in effect.

[Snarky]

Maybe the Devs could make it suck less.  

[Talen Lee]

9 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

.....

This is fascinating as a demonstration of problems with the set.

I do hope it gets addressed. I like my KM characters, but I solo them almost exclusively.

[Maelwys]

6 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

Do the animations need to be changed to do the damage earlier? Is Kinetic Melee mystical enough that the damage could hit before the impact? Like the damage is done with an implosion and then your fist is drawn forwards to fill the gap?

Honestly, a long ATBE isn't the end of the world.

As @Luminara mentions it does make corpse-blasting a concern, and it FEELS SLOW... but a power that has very little difference between the animation time and the ATBE makes good fodder for the Scrapper ATO2 proc (as well as other stuff with windows like Force Feedback and the "Chance for Build Up" Gaussian and Decimation procs).

Honestly for me the bigger concern is the attack animation times in general are far too bloody long. Speed all the animations up by like 50% and KM would be far more reasonable for DPA and look much less like you're trying to fight whilst having a prolonged full-body spasm.

[skoryy]

11 hours ago, Luminara said:

Ultimo didn't stumble onto a brilliant out-of-the-box solution, he tripped over his own ignorance.  Again.

 

Since you're really bitey this morning, I'll offer another slice of pizza and see if that helps. And also suggest that maybe it's not ignorance, especially if its yet another 'suggestion' that isn't on the suggestion forum.

[Without_Pause]

I went through the numbers for Kin, and the first three attacks are more than fine. It's everything else which is so bad it should have never hit the test server. CS not being able to Crit and merely recharging PS isn't the intended win since PS is so underwhelming anyway. Claws can stack the far superior FU with no other attack in play.

[RCU7115]

16 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

But we could make Kinetic Melee do what it does more.

 

Turn Power Siphon into Build-up and include Power Siphon's effects into Concentrated strike?

Or make Power Siphon  like Follow Up.  Either option is an improvement.

[Amp Up]

58 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Honestly, a long ATBE isn't the end of the world.

As @Luminara mentions it does make corpse-blasting a concern, and it FEELS SLOW... but a power that has very little difference between the animation time and the ATBE makes good fodder for the Scrapper ATO2 proc (as well as other stuff with windows like Force Feedback and the "Chance for Build Up" Gaussian and Decimation procs).

Honestly for me the bigger concern is the attack animation times in general are far too bloody long. Speed all the animations up by like 50% and KM would be far more reasonable for DPA and look much less like you're trying to fight whilst having a prolonged full-body spasm.

Um what's going on in that gif?

[Maelwys]

13 minutes ago, Amp Up said:

Um what's going on in that gif?

"Bullshido"

And I swear I'm not making that term up.
(Although its practitioners on the other hand...) 🤣
 

https://www.facebook.com/reel/814110690846243
https://www.facebook.com/reel/740099061632099

🥋💩

[Amp Up]

29 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

"Bullshido"

And I swear I'm not making that term up.
(Although its practitioners on the other hand...) 🤣
 

https://www.facebook.com/reel/814110690846243
https://www.facebook.com/reel/740099061632099

🥋💩

Fitting name

[Ukase]

The easiest fix would also kill it thematically, I'd guess. Reduce the activation and animation times. Spending what seems like 3-5 seconds (it's much shorter) before you hit something is pretty bad. 

[Luminara]

13 hours ago, Ultimo said:

And see if you can do it without being disagreeable. 

 

When I said that you're ignorant, that was me being agreeable.

 

Ignorance is lack of knowledge.  You refuse to read power descriptions, you refuse to use City of Data, you refuse to use Mids', you refuse to do simple math, you categorically avoid educating yourself.  That is ignorance.  Willful ignorance, a deliberate choice not to know things.

 

And in light of all of the things I could say, you'll note that this is still me being agreeable.

[battlewraith]

45 minutes ago, Luminara said:

And in light of all of the things I could say, you'll note that this is still me being agreeable.

You berated the guy for no real reason and you're defending it by pointing out that you could be even more of a jerk. 

BETEO

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

BETEO

 

 

 

[lemming]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

You berated the guy for no real reason and you're defending it by pointing out that you could be even more of a jerk. 

BETEO

Well honestly, Luminara has tried in the past to help and this reaction is not just a one off thing.  It's why I rarely answer Ultima's posts because it's little point.

 

Now, with Kinetic Melee, it needs help.   I'll have to check my char with it and iirc, it's got like two powers that aren't annoying.