No Point of Suggestion (at this rate)

[LightMaster]

Between the whole “only 1% of suggestions be picked and 100% be implemented in worst way possible”, and some ideas comes off as pure junk (joke or otherwise), I feel like the suggestion forum started to become redundant with how seemingly little care the devs are about it.

 

Shouldn’t be best to simply slow down if there’s almost no point that most of these are posted given the whole “only 1% picked and 100% worst” thing? I feel like the devs and / or forum admins should also hold accountable for this blatant disconnection and comes across as out-of-touch.

 

I’m honestly surprised some people kept going despite little to no hint that any of the new ones might be picked up along the way.

[Troo]

Making suggestions is good, making good suggestions is subjective.

[Chance Jackson]

Ultimately this forum is for people to share their wants with others & to hear community feedback.

 

Besides if this forum didn't exist people would be clogging up other forums with their suggestions instead. 

[Zakur]

Frustration about suggestions being largely untouched is understandable, but there's a few things to keep in mind. You should assume good will in regards to peoples' suggestions, and people are allowed to have bad suggestions, no matter how you feel about them.

The devs are volunteers operating at a significantly smaller level than an actual game development studio, and there's a whole lot of suggestions being churned out, many of which aren't going to be suitable for the health of the game. The ones that are take months of development or more to make, and even more to polish and ensure they're fit for the game. They have to be very choosy with the suggestions they get, and they're likely to go for the ones that are attainable and have the best enjoyment-to-controversy ratio. That doesn't mean what they end up making will be the most wonderful addition that no one has a problem with, but working on any major addition to the game is a significant investment, and there's a good chance they have to commit to much of what they start on or else their already infrequent updates become even more infrequent.

You're free to criticize the ideas of others, and you're free to criticize what the devs have implemented, but you should assume good will on part of both the developers and the posters. Regardless of how much the devs listen to suggestions (and I doubt they ignore them, given that the community is what keeps this game alive to begin with), the Suggestions forum is necessary to let the interests and ideas of players be heard by the community. It's worth posting here if you genuinely have something you want to suggest, even if it's unrealistic or undesirable. Not everyone has the same understanding of development's limitations, and it's good to know whether your ideas strike a chord with others in the community or if there's things you haven't considered about said ideas. If sharing your thoughts and interacting with the community was pointless, then the forums as a whole would be.

[tidge]

There have been suggestions made by others that I advocate for (when appropriate).

 

There have been suggestions made that have improved my own thinking about both the game and suggestions I might make in the future.

[JKCarrier]

If this section of the forums bothers you, or you think it's pointless, you can always stop reading it.

[Ghost]

You took an offhand remark, made by another poster as gospel?

 
Then proceeded to get upset about it?

 

Really???

[Oklahoman]

38 minutes ago, Ghost said:

You took an offhand remark, made by another poster as gospel?

 
Then proceeded to get upset about it?

 

Really???

 

Pretty sure that was my remark, and I don't really consider if off-hand at this point. Recently, a GM counted through the 2019 posts and said they'd found 4 that had been implemented. You can go count for yourself how many posts were made in this forum in 2019, but I believe my rough count was over 1500. Let's say if the GM had kept counting they would have found 8 that were actually implemented from 2019, and let's say that a solid half of the suggestions posted were jokes or junk. That's where I'm getting the 1% (8 out of 750) - which is just a rough number, sure, but I honestly think it's generous. Let me know if you come up with a different number.

 

The other half of that is the reaction from this segment of the community to pretty much any suggestion here - "100% will be implemented, and in the worst possible way." That's been discussed at length but by and large it seems to me people don't seem to care. We know the culprits, we know the tactics, and we seem to be OK with it.

 

So, yeah, based on what I see here only about 1% of the suggestions will make it into the game, and people tend to react to suggestions as though it DEFINITELY will make it into the game, and with the worst possible implementation. 

 

[LightMaster]

6 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

 

Pretty sure that was my remark, and I don't really consider if off-hand at this point. Recently, a GM counted through the 2019 posts and said they'd found 4 that had been implemented. You can go count for yourself how many posts were made in this forum in 2019, but I believe my rough count was over 1500. Let's say if the GM had kept counting they would have found 8 that were actually implemented from 2019, and let's say that a solid half of the suggestions posted were jokes or junk. That's where I'm getting the 1% (8 out of 750) - which is just a rough number, sure, but I honestly think it's generous. Let me know if you come up with a different number.

 

The other half of that is the reaction from this segment of the community to pretty much any suggestion here - "100% will be implemented, and in the worst possible way." That's been discussed at length but by and large it seems to me people don't seem to care. We know the culprits, we know the tactics, and we seem to be OK with it.

 

So, yeah, based on what I see here only about 1% of the suggestions will make it into the game, and people tend to react to suggestions as though it DEFINITELY will make it into the game, and with the worst possible implementation. 

 

That’s where I am getting at, and thank you very much for clarifications. I avoided mentioning you specifically in the OP to avoid possible witch-hunting, which is an Internet-wide issue as far as I know.

 

I used to think the worst possible implementation meant “poorly balanced / strayed too much from concept”, I wonder what do you mean by people reacting like that.

[Ghost]

57 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

 

Pretty sure that was my remark, and I don't really consider if off-hand at this point. Recently, a GM counted through the 2019 posts and said they'd found 4 that had been implemented. You can go count for yourself how many posts were made in this forum in 2019, but I believe my rough count was over 1500. Let's say if the GM had kept counting they would have found 8 that were actually implemented from 2019, and let's say that a solid half of the suggestions posted were jokes or junk. That's where I'm getting the 1% (8 out of 750) - which is just a rough number, sure, but I honestly think it's generous. Let me know if you come up with a different number.

 

The other half of that is the reaction from this segment of the community to pretty much any suggestion here - "100% will be implemented, and in the worst possible way." That's been discussed at length but by and large it seems to me people don't seem to care. We know the culprits, we know the tactics, and we seem to be OK with it.

 

So, yeah, based on what I see here only about 1% of the suggestions will make it into the game, and people tend to react to suggestions as though it DEFINITELY will make it into the game, and with the worst possible implementation. 

 

Not attacking you, so please don’t take it that way.

 

Let’s use your number of 750 - let’s say all of those we’re excellent, top of the line suggestions.  
How many do you realistically expect to be implemented, and in what time period - keeping everything we already know in mind?

 

 

I’m just not sure of what peoples expectations actually are here.

That someone (or group) wade through 1500 suggestions a year?  
Even if they started working on implementing 100, there’s still another 1500 coming the following year.  
How could that possibly ever be managed?

To date, that would be 9000 sitting in que!

We get how many updates/changes a year?

 

I’m genuinely interested.

I see the complaint, but what I’m not seeing is not only the expectation but the “How”

 

 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Ghost

[sponazgul]

I just think there should be a suggestion forum like we have here, rather than having suggestions spread throughout the forums.

 

The other day, a suggestion post provided me game-changing information for my level 50 Praetorian - that the Belladonna Vetrano arc was available in the Crystal of Ice and Fire mission list, since blueside and redside content is offered to goldsiders even if they can't get to the mission door, but BV's are all in Night Ward. I wouldn't have discovered that if I hadn't visited a suggestion thread asking for pie-in-the-sky likely-unimplementable suggestions for goldside content.

 

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, LightMaster said:

I feel like the suggestion forum started to become redundant with how seemingly little care the devs are about it.

 

Several of the developers have stated that they read this forum daily.  One of the GMs has mentioned tagging threads for developer review.  They don't respond because it would be the worst possible thing they could do.  If they don't address every suggestion, they're accused of favoritism.  Everybody has to have that gold star developer response, or "DEBS HAET <insert drama queen identification here>!".  And if they do address every suggestion... well, they're spending all of their time talking about the work they could be doing, but aren't, because they're talking about it instead of doing it.

 

A lot of suggestions are either rehashes of rehashes or rehashes of previous suggestions, which have been discussed to the point of even people who like arguing just ignoring them; or blatantly self-serving bullshit which warrants no consideration.  Often both.  "GIMME FREE FIDDY'S".  "y u no maek Weev free?".  "I can haz moar power creeps?".  How many times should a developer be expected to answer the same questions, address the same complaints, give the same response about why something can't be done, before people are satisfied, or, call me crazy, learn to use the fucking search function?

 

And then there's the people who... display difficulty behaving like adults when they're told their ideas are infeasible for technical reasons, detrimental to others in some way, or just not happening for any reason.  Not responding is also the way they retain their professionality, since being quiet prevents them from telling players to go fuck themselves.  That's what many of them need, but not what the HC team considers acceptable from themselves.

 

Of particular note, one of the functions of this sub-forum is to act as a weathervane.  Every time someone submits a suggestion, players respond.  That allows the developers to see what the players think of something, and that guides the game's development.  If I start a thread about locking all content and characters at 50 and abandoning everything below that, and fifty people tell me it's shit for every one who likes it, they'd see that the majority hate it, and say, "Okay, not doing that.".

 

Lastly, suggestions also spark inspiration.  I posted an idea for a mastermind primary, ghosts which gradually lose HP over time, but have life-stealing attacks which they could use to stay alive.  That didn't make it into the game, but some time later, when they were buffing mastermind primaries, Necromancy suddenly had... ghosts which were summoned with Necro attacks and which despawned after 90s.  My suggestion wasn't directly used, but it triggered a moment of inventiveness that led to something that did become part of the game.  Was I attributed for that?  No, nor should I be, because that turns the whole concept of Suggestions & Feedback into a fight over who's going to get the next pat on the head from the development team, a pointless popularity contest where people participate not in the hope of improving the game, but to get that Honorable Mention, and argue over who's Honorable Mention Dick is bigger.  That's not what the game needs, it's not what the forums need and it's not what the developers need.

 

They do care, they do read suggestions, they do use some of them.  But they're not here to hand out trophies or argue with the rest of us about what they're going to do or how to do it.  This was how suggestions worked under Cryptic, it's how suggestions worked under Paragon, and it's how they work here.  This is life.  Deal with it.

[battlewraith]

The last big discussion on this topic revealed that, not only did maybe 1% of suggestions see any action, the ones that did took years for that to happen. The first example that Googly found for me took 5 years to be implemented. And this is assuming that the change that happened was actually related to the suggestion made years earlier and didn't have some parallel development. 

 

Regardless of what the devs can do or should do--the defense of the status quo here is exactly like a cult mentality. 

The god on the hill doesn't communicate with us directly. But he lets us know that he hears our prayers.

Our roles as the chosen ones is to weed out heretics (ie people with bad ideas, people that don't do research, people that just need to be told to fuck off, etc.).

We--the miniscule subset of forumgoers that camp the suggestions forum (mostly Rudra)--are the weathervane. We hold ourselves to represent what everyone wants.

Our piety is rewarded when, some day, a change happens that vaguely resembles something we asked for and we feel that warm glow of affirmation that comes from assuming that we were the reason for it.

[Oklahoman]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

Let’s use your number of 750 - let’s say all of those we’re excellent, top of the line suggestions.  
How many do you realistically expect to be implemented, and in what time period - keeping everything we already know in mind?

 

Not to dodge your question too much - after 5 years I would hope for a number much greater than 8 and realistically dramatically less than 750. I don't think of the answer to this as a number so much as a percentage (see below). Let me ask a different question - how many things have made it into the game that were never suggested, discussed, and vetted in these forums at all? And, how many of those were excellent, top of the line?

 

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

I’m just not sure of what peoples expectations actually are here.

That someone (or group) wade through 1500 suggestions a year?  
Even if they started working on implementing 100, there’s still another 1500 coming the following year.  
How could that possibly ever be managed?

To date, that would be 9000 sitting in que!

We get how many updates/changes a year?

 

I totally get the bandwidth issue. You're exactly right - there's no way we could implement every single good idea posted here (much less any of the mediocre ones, not that we'll ever completely agree on which is which). What I would like to see is, say, a consistent situation where 80% of each update could be directly tied back to suggestions (with a link to give credit) in these forums and the other 20% are surprise stuff that the devs came up with because they came up with a cool idea, or they looked at the numbers and saw some tweaks were needed for fairness, or whatever. Or, 50/50, or whatever number you like. Right now, it feels like 1% (at best) is from these forums and 99% is the surprise, and I think if we look back at those 2019 numbers we're kind of justified in that.

[lemming]

I find many suggestions helpful in understanding parts of the game.   I've definitely seen some suggestions influence other developments.

 

Though back when I was doing development elsewhere, I did leave this comment:

 

"Inserted a feature that was player requested. Now to find some chaos to put in there."

[MTeague]

From a curiosity point of view, I'd love to sneak a peek at any kind of Sprint Plan / Kanban board / Trello / JIRA that they may be using to organize who's working on what, and what theirr big-picture view going forward is. 

 

But if I were a developer?  I would tell me, in no uncertain terms,

 

 

There is just no upside for the developers to give that information to the players. A statement that someone is working on something will be carved into stone tablets, and if the idea has to be scrapped or scaled back, players will scream "But you promised!!!!!"  even if the devs were very clear nothing was ever promised. 

 

ndividually, I think most players realize this is done in the devs spare time, unpaid, and they all have other family obligations, other needs for their own downtime, and heck it's quite possible each developer can only put in 10 hours a week to this effort... if that. Or maybe they'll surprise me and they do clock in 20 to 30. I don't know. I'm sure it varies week to week, month to month. Real life happens to them, same as it happens to us.

 

But I do know that in groups, users, and particularly gamers, have the patience of an ADHD five year old on a serious caffiene trip. We're all full of the Best Ideas that Anyone Has Ever Had, and it seems incomprehensible to many why certain things have not been implemented years ago. Because we don't really know the devs, they're just faceless account names to us, and we want all the Cool New Shinies.

 

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, MTeague said:

There is just no upside for the developers to give that information to the players. A statement that someone is working on something will be carved into stone tablets, and if the idea has to be scrapped or scaled back, players will scream "But you promised!!!!!"  even if the devs were very clear nothing was ever promised. 

Reminds me of back on Live when we found out the Live devs were looking into a whip power set. There was all sorts of excitement. Then Demon Mastery came out, that was the whip set, and holy hells the outcry about not getting a real whip set! (Edit: Nevermind that before that update was launched, it was already known that the devs found whips to be not exactly friendly to the game and what it allowed the devs to do, so we were warned before the release that whips had been shifted over to Demon Mastery as the MM's three ranged attacks.)

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Rudra

[Syler]

Since getting back into CoX I've seen a lot of folks complaining about the CoX staff not doing X or ignoring Y. 

 

I know many have a strong emotional attachment to this game. When I recreated my main from Live and hit 50 I was jumping around the office like a teenager yelling hurrays. 

 

But it's incredibly unfair to the VOLUNTEER dev team that does their best to keep the game alive. They're limited to donations and I imagine they're working full time jobs to pay the bills. I don't see anyone volunteering to help the devs with coding, animation, or giving them a hefty donation to support the effort. 

 

Even if they were a for-profit team theres so many suggestions. They need to be triaged, considered, if moved on they need beta tested, tweaked and implemented. Likely even more than that. If the citation above was accurate and there were ~1500 in 2019 alone, that's a lot to sort, decide on and implement. Everyone's wish doesn't need fulfilled. 

 

I'm over the moon I get to play my favorite MMO again. Yes its janky. No its not perfectly balanced. That's fine. Its a 20 year old game being held up on a shoe-string donation-based budget by a couple of willing devs. They're the reason we can play. It does little to benefit the whole of community to hold them accountable to the standards of a full-time team. 

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Syler said:

They're limited to donations and I imagine they're working full time jobs to pay the bills. I don't see anyone volunteering to help the devs with coding, animation, or giving them a hefty donation to support the effort. 

 

Well, the donations only pay for the server upkeep and some legal stuff. None of the DEV team is paid.

And no, "hefty donations" are not a thing. Homecoming is a non-profit.

 

But, yeah, if there are volunteers out there that could work on animations and coding, the DEVs are always looking for people that can help ... and I might add, when they do get volunteers they are generally work on what they want to see in the game.

 

2 hours ago, Syler said:

That's fine. Its a 20 year old game being held up on a shoe-string donation-based budget by a couple of willing devs.

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/staff/

 

Looks like 18 DEVS, but, yeah, there is the list.

[Snarky]

17 hours ago, LightMaster said:

Between the whole “only 1% of suggestions be picked and 100% be implemented in worst way possible”, and some ideas comes off as pure junk (joke or otherwise), I feel like the suggestion forum started to become redundant with how seemingly little care the devs are about it.

 

Shouldn’t be best to simply slow down if there’s almost no point that most of these are posted given the whole “only 1% picked and 100% worst” thing? I feel like the devs and / or forum admins should also hold accountable for this blatant disconnection and comes across as out-of-touch.

 

I’m honestly surprised some people kept going despite little to no hint that any of the new ones might be picked up along the way.

Counter-Rant:

 

I have walked into the harsh sun of the Suggestion Forum.  And did not sparkle, but burst into spectacular flames.  🔥 

 

First, I now ignore nearly all feedback in suggestions.  Or, more accurately, take each subsequent post as a separate “suggestion” the poster was not brave enough to start their own thread with.  There are some exceptions for really thoughtful and on point responses. Opinions vary though, yours will be different than mine. 
 

Second, the Forum Devs do a good job of trying to keep everything sorted. They read most everything.  Do you have a genius game changing realization like, I don’t know, Arcana?  Probably will get acted on.  Do you have the ten thousandth suggestion about knockback?   🤔 Hmmm…

 

Lastly, this is an excellent place to get feedback from the community on topics.  We have some laughs.  We poke over things.  The Devs are doing the hard work.  But we are the crew schlepping thru the content and finding things.  The game code is huge, the Dev time is small, and without the audience the show would not mean as much. Enjoy the show. 

[tidge]

11 hours ago, Luminara said:

A lot of suggestions are either rehashes of rehashes or rehashes of previous suggestions, which have been discussed to the point of even people who like arguing just ignoring them; or blatantly self-serving bullshit which warrants no consideration.  Often both.  "GIMME FREE FIDDY'S".  "y u no maek Weev free?".  "I can haz moar power creeps?".  How many times should a developer be expected to answer the same questions, address the same complaints, give the same response about why something can't be done, before people are satisfied, or, call me crazy, learn to use the fucking search function?

 

But... but...  the devs will listen to me, and take my suggestion as an improvement over whatever they may have seen before and will be helped to recognize the brilliance of the suggestion! /s

 

6 hours ago, Syler said:

But it's incredibly unfair to the VOLUNTEER dev team that does their best to keep the game alive. They're limited to donations and I imagine they're working full time jobs to pay the bills. I don't see anyone volunteering to help the devs with coding, animation, or giving them a hefty donation to support the effort. 

 

WhO R yOU to GatEKEep WAHT the DeVs WoRK oN? /s

[Snarky]

i am the mayor of Paragon

---

Edited 7 hours ago by Snarky

[LightMaster]

I admit I was on a bad mood at the forums at the time of yesterday of so, so let me the one to say:

 

I understand. And I regret what I said in the OP. Especially now that I realize the number of devs, a bit smaller than I expected.

 

At the end of the day, the Suggestion and Feedback threads are only that; Suggestion and Feedback. Drama (as in, intense arguments) and off-topic arguments hurted chances of an otherwise well-built and liked suggestion, and with that in mind, I don’t think the devs want to deal with any of that.

[golstat2003]

20 hours ago, Zakur said:

Frustration about suggestions being largely untouched is understandable, but there's a few things to keep in mind. You should assume good will in regards to peoples' suggestions, and people are allowed to have bad suggestions, no matter how you feel about them.

The devs are volunteers operating at a significantly smaller level than an actual game development studio, and there's a whole lot of suggestions being churned out, many of which aren't going to be suitable for the health of the game. The ones that are take months of development or more to make, and even more to polish and ensure they're fit for the game. They have to be very choosy with the suggestions they get, and they're likely to go for the ones that are attainable and have the best enjoyment-to-controversy ratio. That doesn't mean what they end up making will be the most wonderful addition that no one has a problem with, but working on any major addition to the game is a significant investment, and there's a good chance they have to commit to much of what they start on or else their already infrequent updates become even more infrequent.

You're free to criticize the ideas of others, and you're free to criticize what the devs have implemented, but you should assume good will on part of both the developers and the posters. Regardless of how much the devs listen to suggestions (and I doubt they ignore them, given that the community is what keeps this game alive to begin with), the Suggestions forum is necessary to let the interests and ideas of players be heard by the community. It's worth posting here if you genuinely have something you want to suggest, even if it's unrealistic or undesirable. Not everyone has the same understanding of development's limitations, and it's good to know whether your ideas strike a chord with others in the community or if there's things you haven't considered about said ideas. If sharing your thoughts and interacting with the community was pointless, then the forums as a whole would be.

 

Best post on these forums I've read all year. In any part of it really, not just Suggestions forums.

[golstat2003]

13 hours ago, Oklahoman said:

 

Not to dodge your question too much - after 5 years I would hope for a number much greater than 8 and realistically dramatically less than 750. I don't think of the answer to this as a number so much as a percentage (see below). Let me ask a different question - how many things have made it into the game that were never suggested, discussed, and vetted in these forums at all? And, how many of those were excellent, top of the line?

 

 

I totally get the bandwidth issue. You're exactly right - there's no way we could implement every single good idea posted here (much less any of the mediocre ones, not that we'll ever completely agree on which is which). What I would like to see is, say, a consistent situation where 80% of each update could be directly tied back to suggestions (with a link to give credit) in these forums and the other 20% are surprise stuff that the devs came up with because they came up with a cool idea, or they looked at the numbers and saw some tweaks were needed for fairness, or whatever. Or, 50/50, or whatever number you like. Right now, it feels like 1% (at best) is from these forums and 99% is the surprise, and I think if we look back at those 2019 numbers we're kind of justified in that.

 

See some of the suggestions that have been suggested over the years I would very much hate this. And a link giving credit is a terrible idea that can lead to problems later down the line. Also that is a realistic suggestion for a fully paid dev team. It's not for a volunteer team.

 

I and many others have asked the question previously (and in this thread): how do you get the team the resources needed to make churning out suggestions into real development work a reality (at least at the level some expect of a PAID dev team).

 

Still waiting for an answer that won't get the license pulled from the team.

Edited 6 hours ago by golstat2003