What Primaries and Secondaries for the endgame AV's?

[mousestalker]

If you were designing your ideal defender for endgame team high end content (ie AV's) what would be your powers? Your goal would be to provide maximum effective support to your team mates. I have my own ideas but I am interested to find out what the consensus is and why.

[Auroxis]

For debuffing AV's, nothing beats Cold/Sonic.

 

For a mix of debuffing AV's and buffing your team's damage, Nature/Sonic is great if you build for perma-overgrowth.

 

That being said, high end content is more than just AV's and making AV's die faster isn't the only way to make your team better, depending on the scenario of course.

[Hjarki]

In general, the debuff-centric sets work better against AV/GM than the buff-centric ones.

 

The most important debuff is -resist. Not only does it amplify damage but it's effectively unlimited in its utility - it's basically impossible to floor -resist on an endgame AV/GM even with a full league. Storm, Cold and Poison lead the pack here, followed by Dark.

 

The second most important debuff is -regen. Unlike -resist, you can floor regen so having more -regen that necessary isn't all that useful. Thermal and Radiation are the best here, followed by Cold and Dark. This is primarily a matter of uptime (duration vs. recharge).

 

Most of the other debuffs are irrelevant (or, at best, marginally relevant) since they get so heavily resisted and you generally don't care about their effects all that much.

 

For secondary, Beam is probably the best choice since it combines the ability to usefully slot Achilles' Heel and Annihilation while also bring another -20% resist attack and a -150% regen attack. Dual Pistols has all those features except the -regen. Sonic can theoretically debuff -resist a bit better if you can run a full attack chain, but this doesn't happen often with Defenders since you need to spend time on your primary.

 

That being said, bear in mind that there is no 'perfect set'. For example, none of the secondaries above are particularly good at AE damage.

 

Of the primaries I mentioned, Storm is probably the only one you'd really want to play as a Defender.

 

Dark Affinity (Controller) is significantly better than Dark Miasma - so much so that it seems a waste to choose Dark on a non-Controller.

 

Poison works a lot better for Masterminds since it's more practical to send your pet into melee range to debuff resist than to do it yourself.

 

Cold tends to work just as well as a secondary (aside from being forced to waste a power on the mediocre Infrigidate) and all those ally buffs tend to encourage play with a pet-centric AT.

 

Radiation is more of a solo set than anything else - most of its key abilities tend to be clunky and unwieldy in a team setting.

 

Thermal is another ally-centric set that generally works better when you bring your own allies with you (i.e. pets).

 

Sets like Nature and Time can also be considered candidates. They don't have nearly the same level of anti-AV/GM hate, but they're generally strong sets that have a minor focus on dealing with solitary hard targets.

 

You should also be aware that while sets such as Storm, Cold and Dark have a lot of useful features for AV/GM fights, they're often a terrible choice for soloing AV/GM because they depend on location AE that an AV/GM will simply stroll out of. It's possible to fix this with Epic/Patron pools and Immobilize, but that requires making some serious compromises. Not only are the Immobilizes available to Defenders not particularly good, but they don't tend to be in pools/sets that you'd otherwise consider taking.

[Hedgefund]

A discussion of AV killers should include Traps.  All numbers are before adjustments to level and rank.

 

1 Acid Mortar provides 26.66% -def and -res (it's trivial to have 2 out for an AV fight, so 2x for 53.333)  Lots of proc opportunies (procortunities?) in this

1 Poison Trap offers 1000% -regen.  Also proc worthy.

1 Seeker Drone debuffs to-hit by 13.3% and damage by -26.6.  Multiply by 2x because you summon 2 at a time.

 

"But AVs will just run away from the Traps!" someone may counter.  Not if you spam Web Grenade.

 

Traps won't be the consensus answer but it's mine to the question posed in the OP.  Not by a great margin by any means, Cold and Rad are strong for this too.  Poison seems like it should be, and I can't say first-hand how it is for Defs, I've only played it on MMs which did not make me think "this is the best debuffing set for AVs/Heros".

 

As to the blast set, Sonic is my usual go-to but Water and Beam could offer interesting alternatives.  Still, Sonic will stack up an impressive amount of -res which is probably your best tool for AVs in your secondary.

[Ankhammon]

I think Naff could be higher on the list myself. What to consider with it is the sneaky advantage of end gain (and end redux) going with HoTs to leave you in the fight longer. This goes with the -dam, -tohit, +dam that are all significant and makes for a more viable then at first glance contestant for AV hunter.

[Frosticus]

While i prefer traps on a controller; the set is geared heavily toward long duration fights that require little mobility. As such it excels quite well at dropping AV's.

I will say though that some encounters can be very risky to get close enough to use poison trap (pretty slow cast time). And without poison trap in play then traps isn't that noteworthy.

[Chance Jackson]

A discussion of AV killers should include Traps.  All numbers are before adjustments to level and rank.

 

1 Acid Mortar provides 26.66% -def and -res (it's trivial to have 2 out for an AV fight, so 2x for 53.333)  Lots of proc opportunies (procortunities?) in this

1 Poison Trap offers 1000% -regen.  Also proc worthy.

1 Seeker Drone debuffs to-hit by 13.3% and damage by -26.6.  Multiply by 2x because you summon 2 at a time.

 

"But AVs will just run away from the Traps!" someone may counter.  Not if you spam Web Grenade.

 

Traps won't be the consensus answer but it's mine to the question posed in the OP.  Not by a great margin by any means, Cold and Rad are strong for this too.  Poison seems like it should be, and I can't say first-hand how it is for Defs, I've only played it on MMs which did not make me think "this is the best debuffing set for AVs/Heros".

 

As to the blast set, Sonic is my usual go-to but Water and Beam could offer interesting alternatives.  Still, Sonic will stack up an impressive amount of -res which is probably your best tool for AVs in your secondary.

IIRC Traps/Poison Trap deals unresistable -Regen making it imo the best Buff/Debuff set for soloing AVs & GMs.

[Overclock]

I think when you're talking about fighting end game AV's it's a mistake to discount Rad as being "only for soloing" or "clunky in a team setting".

 

Rad's toggle debuffs can be a pain on a team because teams will inevitably kill the debuff anchor, or knock things out of the debuff cloud.

 

That's not ever an issue with AVs though. With an AV as the anchor it doesn't matter if the anchor dies (and they're not going to die first) and they're not going to be knocked back into another spawn either. If you're solely focused on high level AV killing then you have to be willing to admit that the trash around the AVs isn't particularly meaningful. Every other AT can obliterate those just fine, and at no level has a TF ever stalled out because a regular boss was too hard for the team to get through.

 

Compared to the other AV-killing sets, Rad has a lot of advantages too:

 

Storm -> really only offers -Resist as a meaningful debuff on AVs. Completely lacks -Regen. Also the -Resist is location based so a mobile AV can waltz out of it.

 

Traps -> Again, AVs can leave the area the Traps are setup in. It's not a common problem, but unless the Rad user is foolish enough to get mezzed or run out of End, the AV's not escaping the toggle debuffs and can't escape the -Regen debuff either.

 

Cold -> Can match and exceed Rad's debuff totals but requires a boatload of recharge to do it. Without serious set IO slotting Ice will have significant gaps in the coverage its debuffs supply. This is fine if you are only interested in Perma-Hasten level builds, but even in that range Rad has a small advantage that a bunch of -Recharge debuffs won't send it's performance plummeting down into the gutter.

 

 

[Hjarki]

Compared to the other AV-killing sets, Rad has a lot of advantages too:

 

However, it doesn't have self-stacking -resist debuffs - which is why it amplifies damage much less than some other sets do.

[Without_Pause]

Rad's toggle debuffs can be a pain on a team because teams will inevitably kill the debuff anchor

 

Not an issue now as the toggle stays on. Also, I'm not saying it is #1, but Kin really should get a mention.

[Hjarki]

Not an issue now as the toggle stays on. Also, I'm not saying it is #1, but Kin really should get a mention.

 

Kinetics isn't very good against a single target. +damage buffs are generally inferior to -resist debuffs because while the latter affects everything, the former only affects the basic damage of your attacks. Furthermore, there's very limited 'upside' to such buffs. On the Defender themselves, it's very likely that you'll only be getting a 60% boost even if you're hitting the cap - which likely only translates into ~35% improvement in damage (it's better for the dps-oriented AT).

 

Against a single target, Kinetics doesn't even deliver that because you're only getting a single bonus from Fulcrum Shift. It's potentially possible you'll cap our Defender still, but you're not going to be pushing Scrappers and Brutes to the cap.

[Without_Pause]

Kinetics isn't very good against a single target. +damage buffs are generally inferior to -resist debuffs because while the latter affects everything, the former only affects the basic damage of your attacks. Furthermore, there's very limited 'upside' to such buffs. On the Defender themselves, it's very likely that you'll only be getting a 60% boost even if you're hitting the cap - which likely only translates into ~35% improvement in damage (it's better for the dps-oriented AT).

 

Against a single target, Kinetics doesn't even deliver that because you're only getting a single bonus from Fulcrum Shift. It's potentially possible you'll cap our Defender still, but you're not going to be pushing Scrappers and Brutes to the cap.

 

1. They asked about a team situation so a defender's personal damage is less a factor.

2. You didn't mention Siphon Power, Siphon Speed, Increase Density, Transfusion, Transference, or Speed Boost.

3. Siphon Power and Fulcrum also offer -dmg on their target. SS +recharge +speed/-speed. ID mez protection. SB for +recharge +recovery. Transfusion is a large area significant in terms of numbers team heal. Transference's importance can be even more significant based on if Elec is involved. Still good as is.

 

I mean sure, if we talk about half of one power for one of the people taking on an AV then any set seems poor.

[mousestalker]

To clarify, I'm interested in how I can help my team mates, not in how to solo. Sometimes helping means doing damage directly (by way of example, three ITF's back my team mates would not defeat the immunes. So I powered up my snipe and took 'em down. By some strange coincidence the bosses started dropping about then. Darnedest thing). More often it means keeping them on their feet and helping them do more damage faster.

 

How do we do that effectively?

[Hjarki]

1. They asked about a team situation so a defender's personal damage is less a factor.

2. You didn't mention Siphon Power, Siphon Speed, Increase Density, Transfusion, Transference, or Speed Boost.

 

I didn't mention them for the same reason I didn't mention such powers for other sets - they're not terribly relevant. What is relevant is the damage multiplier that can be applied by a power set - and Kinetics' drops significantly when you only have a single target (to the point where it can't really compete with debuffing sets).

 

3. Siphon Power and Fulcrum also offer -dmg on their target. SS +recharge +speed/-speed. ID mez protection. SB for +recharge +recovery. Transfusion is a large area significant in terms of numbers team heal. Transference's importance can be even more significant based on if Elec is involved. Still good as is.

 

Every set has nice perks like this. However, the aggregate of them isn't very important compared to the damage multiplier.

[HelenCarnate]

Rad/Sonic or Dark/Sonic are both great AV melters on teams.  Sometimes people forget you don't have to have dead teammates to use Howling Twilight which is -500% regen.  Your heal is stupidly OP so you can spend more time attacking but if you do need to cast a heal that is another -50% regen and then you have your Dark Servant around also casting the same heal.  Then with Tar Patch combined with Sonic attacks you can have a solid -70 to -90% damage resist debuff running if you are attacking full time.

[DSorrow]

For primaries, I'd go with Cold > Traps > Dark / Storm for the top three. Cold and Traps are pretty obvious, so I'll go through Dark and Storm a bit more in detail. Dark can stack Tar Patch for pretty heavy -Res and it provides enough -ToHit to impact AVs. There's also a bunch of -Regen between Twilight Grasp, Fluffy and Howling Twilight. However, Dark Miasma is probably better on Controllers. Storm also has great potential with stacked Freezing Rain, Tornadoes and Lightning Storms but with high recharge it becomes extremely Endurance intensive. One note for Traps, though, even if it excels in drawn out fights against AVs, it's going to feel clunky in fast paced teams because setting up your powers takes a while and besides FFG they don't follow you around.

 

Secondary is obviously Sonic Blast. Beam Rifle might also be competitive (it has some -Res and -Regen, right), but I have to admit I'm not familiar with the set.

[Rylas]

Compared to the other AV-killing sets, Rad has a lot of advantages too:

 

However, it doesn't have self-stacking -resist debuffs - which is why it amplifies damage much less than some other sets do.

 

*cough* Rad/Sonic *cough*

[oedipus_tex]

I think perhaps the most overlooked buff set in the game is Thermal. Thermal truly has it all, and while other sets can certainly accomplish faster clear times on AVs, Thermal is probably the most likely set in the game for taking any random team composition and filling a hole it was missing. It is also an incredibly survivable set thanks to the PBAoE heal (only Empathy, Radiation, Nature, Time, and Pain get one of these, and none of those is quite a match for Thermal). A PBAOE heal with Defender heal values on an AT that can cap Resistance on self and soft cap fairly easily is incredible stuff on its own. Under the new proc rules powers like Melt Armor are virtually guaranteed to trigger additional resistance procs, making the power far more valuable than it used to be. Also, Forge adds +25% ToHit to a teammate so if someone has a snipe it becomes insta-cast, which is always appreciated.

 

Soloing an AV is something quite different of course. But for teams a good Thermal is always a huge win.

 

 

[Without_Pause]

1. They asked about a team situation so a defender's personal damage is less a factor.

2. You didn't mention Siphon Power, Siphon Speed, Increase Density, Transfusion, Transference, or Speed Boost.

 

I didn't mention them for the same reason I didn't mention such powers for other sets - they're not terribly relevant. What is relevant is the damage multiplier that can be applied by a power set - and Kinetics' drops significantly when you only have a single target (to the point where it can't really compete with debuffing sets).

 

3. Siphon Power and Fulcrum also offer -dmg on their target. SS +recharge +speed/-speed. ID mez protection. SB for +recharge +recovery. Transfusion is a large area significant in terms of numbers team heal. Transference's importance can be even more significant based on if Elec is involved. Still good as is.

 

Every set has nice perks like this. However, the aggregate of them isn't very important compared to the damage multiplier.

 

+ recharge isn't very important despite the fact that it is one of the most looked for traits to get as part of being an Incarnate? You do realize it also further aids that +dmg right? Outside of groups needing a healer, Kin is one of the more asked for powersets. Gee, I can't imagine why when they bring so little to the end game. *cough* Ran two Kins to 50 on live with one being my main. I lost count of how many AVs I turned into kittens. By all means promote various debuff sets as they should be, but dismissing Kin as only having +dmg being of worthiness is comical.

[Frosticus]

. One note for Traps, though, even if it excels in drawn out fights against AVs, it's going to feel clunky in fast paced teams because setting up your powers takes a while and besides FFG they don't follow you around.

 

In my experience it is just a different approach, but can still be of comparable value to sets like storm, or dark, or similar. Where those sets would just drop their -res power and blast on a fast team I find the best power a trapper has in that situation is seekers. Get out fast and cast them right away into the next spawn to break the alpha. At which point just about anyone can leap in without worry. That may or may not be of equitable value to an aoe -res, just depends on the team.

[Hjarki]

+ recharge isn't very important despite the fact that it is one of the most looked for traits to get as part of being an Incarnate? You do realize it also further aids that +dmg right?

 

+recharge isn't very useful because it doesn't change most players' rotations - and thus doesn't increase dps. There are relatively few builds that can use incremental improvements in recharge over the recharge they already designed into their build. If you're the one providing the recharge, you can plan your build around it. But you can't plan your build around having a pocket Kinetic, so everyone just slots for the recharge they'll need. Granting them an extra +50% recharge normally isn't enough to produce a different rotation so they just end up with the same rotation - and powers coming off recharge more quickly than they actually need.

 

There are a few builds that do profit from arbitrary amounts of additional recharge up to the cap. However, they're almost always support builds. If you can multi-stack long recharge powers, even small improvements in recharge can reap dividends. But for virtually all of the dps builds, it's not very useful once the IO slotting is complete.

 

Outside of groups needing a healer, Kin is one of the more asked for powersets.

 

It's requested for farming runs, not AV/GM fights. Even then, it's normally requested for a single reason: Fulcrum Shift. While the debuff-centric sets tend to be better damage multipliers in an AV/GM fight, your Spines/Fire Brute isn't going to wait for you to lay in multiple debuff fields before engaging a spawn - and the spawn will be dead long before the weight of stacking debuffs weighs in.

 

Moreover, Fulcrum Shift allows that Brute to operate (somewhat) independently. In contrast, the debuff-centric sets require them to (a) be able to hold the spawn together in those fields (remember, melee have very small AoE radii compared to Blast sets) and (b) have the Defender with them at all times.

 

Gee, I can't imagine why when they bring so little to the end game. *cough* Ran two Kins to 50 on live with one being my main. I lost count of how many AVs I turned into kittens. By all means promote various debuff sets as they should be, but dismissing Kin as only having +dmg being of worthiness is comical.

 

Turning AV/GM into kittens isn't actually all that useful. For squishies, the damage dealt by AV/GM is meaningless compared to the control effects. For melee, their own armor sets tend to mitigate damage more than sufficiently. Probably the most useful AV/GM debuff Kinetics brings is actually Siphon Speed because the unresistable Slow can lock AV/GM in place.

 

In my experience it is just a different approach, but can still be of comparable value to sets like storm, or dark, or similar. Where those sets would just drop their -res power and blast on a fast team I find the best power a trapper has in that situation is seekers. Get out fast and cast them right away into the next spawn to break the alpha. At which point just about anyone can leap in without worry. That may or may not be of equitable value to an aoe -res, just depends on the team.

 

Acid Mortar has two significant issues facing it:

• Self-stacking. Cold, Storm and Dark all 'self-stack'. That means their primary -resist debuff can be layered on multiple times. In early levels, this isn't apparent. But when you're running perma-Hasten levels of recharge, it becomes a very significant factor. So while Acid Mortar may seem like it's comparable to Sleet, Freezing Rain and Tar Patch, it's only about a third their value in a long AV/GM fight.
  
• Clunky mechanics. The entire Traps set is an ode to great abilities with serious quality-of-life issues and Acid Mortar is no different. If you're fighting a single target, then it can be effective. Not as effective as, say, Poison, Nature, Thermal, Trick Arrow, Sonic, Radiation or Time (much less Cold/Dark/Storm). But decent enough. If you're fighting an AV/GM in the middle of a crowd on minions, those Acid grenades are frequently wasted on random minions rather than the AV/GM.
  

 

To some extent, the game can be thought of as having three stages:

• Defense stage. In the early levels, players struggle to even survive. This is where abilities like shields and various Control sets really shine because they prevent the damage that would kill even your tank.
  
• Endurance/Recharge stage. In the mid-levels and prior to IO set slotting, players struggle with their abilities not coming up often enough and finding the endurance to power them.
  
• DPS stage. After IO slotting and at level 50, players struggle to maximize their damage output since they've already solved the two problems above.
  

 

Endgame AV/GM tend to exist in that last stage, which places a premium on support sets that can be force multipliers. It especially places a premium on debuffs > buffs because buffs have a relatively low cap compared to the virtually unlimited room for debuffing resist and while debuffs affect all of your damage buffs only affect a portion of it.

[Frosticus]

 

 

In my experience it is just a different approach, but can still be of comparable value to sets like storm, or dark, or similar. Where those sets would just drop their -res power and blast on a fast team I find the best power a trapper has in that situation is seekers. Get out fast and cast them right away into the next spawn to break the alpha. At which point just about anyone can leap in without worry. That may or may not be of equitable value to an aoe -res, just depends on the team.

 

Acid Mortar has two significant issues facing it:

• Self-stacking. Cold, Storm and Dark all 'self-stack'. That means their primary -resist debuff can be layered on multiple times. In early levels, this isn't apparent. But when you're running perma-Hasten levels of recharge, it becomes a very significant factor. So while Acid Mortar may seem like it's comparable to Sleet, Freezing Rain and Tar Patch, it's only about a third their value in a long AV/GM fight.
  
• Clunky mechanics. The entire Traps set is an ode to great abilities with serious quality-of-life issues and Acid Mortar is no different. If you're fighting a single target, then it can be effective. Not as effective as, say, Poison, Nature, Thermal, Trick Arrow, Sonic, Radiation or Time (much less Cold/Dark/Storm). But decent enough. If you're fighting an AV/GM in the middle of a crowd on minions, those Acid grenades are frequently wasted on random minions rather than the AV/GM.
  

 

not sure why you quoted me as I surely wasn't talking about acid mortar considering my response was to the notion that traps really struggles in fast teams and how having an alpha breaker can be of tremendous value sometimes.

 

That said, you should take a closer look at acid mortar and how it functions. It provides approx 80 second -res debuff with a 90 second recharge and a 2.9 sec cast. It definitely "self stacks"

[Sothoth]

Also keep in mind that as a Defender, you cannot hang out in melee range of the endgame AV's, they have a lot of cones and aoes that will one shot you.

If you need to be in AOE range, you need to time it, and then get in and get out quick.

 

Your heal is stupidly OP so you can spend more time attacking

 

Oh man, that's funny, that WOULD be true if people tried to avoid fight mechanics, but sadly, they just tunnel and pew pew pew no matter how much damage they are taking, so you will always be healing and rezzing in an iTrial. Unless of course, you get lucky and don't end up with a bunch of scrubs on your team. But that doesn't seem to happen very often.

[Star Slayer]

Cold/Sonic
Rad/Sonic
Dark/Sonic

If you notice the trend here (and in this thread in general), the -Resistance debuff on Sonic is just too good if you are creating an anti-AV toon (which I also have and enjoy). When you're considering a group-friendly toon that allows your team to effectively take on AV's, you'll want to maximize the debuffs to the AV across the spectrum, so that usually entails -Resistance, -Regen, -Defense, -ToHit, -Damage (Usually in that order). Thats why you're seeing all the Cold/, Dark/, and Rad/ suggestions, as all three cover all or a wide range of these effects.

 

Underrated is usually Dark/ with the -Resistance from Tar Patch (Especially if you're stacking it with Sonic) and the -500 Regen from Howling Twilight, which I believe is still an Auto-Hit (Money!) along with the -ToHit you can essentially floor an AV's accuracy with by yourself.

 

I personally run Rad (for now), because I like that its a great utility set that includes an easy group heal, accelerated metabolism (+Dmg, +Recovery, +Speed, +Recharge, +Res Mez...MONEY!) along with the debuff toggles (which I tend to like more now that the patch has hit). If you're designing an anti-AV toon, the Rad/ toggles are fire and forget, allowing you to focus on your attack chain instead of constantly working back in your debuff powers like some of the other sets. Not that this process is THAT big of a deal, but thats simply when preference kicks in. I like to put my toggles on, then DPS the hell out of them.

 

Like some others have mentioned, even with the patch Rad/ can still be annoying if you have a fast group-killing team, but in the big-picture, if your group is killing large mob packs that easily, even with a boss, you have a good team and can just focus on DPSing the boss, as /Sonic is ALWAYS going to be useful on them.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Star Slayer

[Hjarki]

2 hours ago, Star Slayer said:

If you notice the trend here (and in this thread in general), the -Resistance debuff on Sonic is just too good if you are creating an anti-AV toon (which I also have and enjoy).

You can get roughly the same performance in practice from Beam or Dual Pistols due to the combination of their inherent -resistance attacks and Achilles' Heel/Annihilation procs - and you can do so without Sonic's painfully low damage. Keep in mind that Defenders don't get full rotations like Blasters or Scrappers - their 'rotation' is constantly being interrupted by the demands of their primary.