Implement MM on-summon buffs to prevent pet deathloops.

[Shin Magmus]

   I completed the the new Zoe Langston TF on Advanced Mode, blind, 2-man with my friend as usual.  Since MMs have been "buffed" in this patch I decided to do it with my MM.  We did finish, but the entire TF is incredibly anti-MM and the last mission in particular has the most forced, unavoidable, autohit, wide-ranging AoE dmg I think I've ever seen in this game; It is overwhelmingly anti-MM.  This highlights a significant problem, because while you can theoretically be allowed to play the game while maintaining perfect uptime on 90% Res buffs and supported by tons of Regen buffs and heals, the instant a pet dies once you are no longer allowed to play.  There is no safe area, no gap, no time to realistically resummon a pet and be able to apply your Upgrade Powers and any other buffs to the pets before they die again.  This is the MM pet deathloop.

 

   The MM pet deathloop can occur in other content, but it's never been as prevalent and completely unbeatable as it is in the Zoe Langston TF.  I'm not exaggerating for comedic effect, it's "literally unplayable" unless you run away from the encounter and summon somewhere else, far from your team and the actual battle.  You can try to teleport back to your team and perfectly time some Barriers + Wild Growth + World of Pain etc. and maybe your pets won't die in less than 2 seconds, maybe... big maybe.  So, since this last update started to address MM issues, I would like to make a suggestion for further improvements.

 

Holy Mission: To Defeat the evils of Mastermind Pet Deathloops

   All MM Henchmen should have a buff on summon that works like a hyper-condensed version of Barrier Destiny, with short-lived depreciating buffs.  The purpose of this power is to give any MM player just enough time to cast 3-4 powers on their MM reliably: both Upgrade Powers and then either some shields/buffs in their secondary (Deflection Shield) or Barrier Destiny.  The detailed information of this power is below:

 

"TENACITY"

   Henchmen are the strength of the Mastermind, and cannot be so easily defeated.  We get knocked down, we get back up again.

+18% Damage Resistance (All) / +9% Defense (All), unresistable, for 3 seconds (90% / 45%)

+18% Damage Resistance (All) / +9% Defense (All), unresistable, for 4 seconds (72% / 36%)

+18% Damage Resistance (All) / +9% Defense (All), unresistable, for 5 seconds (54% / 27%)

+18% Damage Resistance (All) / +9% Defense (All), unresistable, for 6 seconds (36% / 18%)

+18% Damage Resistance (All) / +9% Defense (All), unresistable, for 7 seconds (18% / 9%)

 

🙂 Being allowed to play the game is much more fun than not being allowed to play the game.🙂

 

 

[Bionic_Flea]

56 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

We get knocked down, we get back up again.

 

I approve, but only if we call the power Chumbawumba.

 

Also, there seems to be a logical inconsistency in your post.  You stated that you completed the ZTF on an MM with only one other person and later stated that the MM deathloop makes the ZTF completely unbeatable.

[Shin Magmus]

59 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

I approve, but only if we call the power Chumbawumba.

 

Also, there seems to be a logical inconsistency in your post.  You stated that you completed the ZTF on an MM with only one other person and later stated that the MM deathloop makes the ZTF completely unbeatable.

   My friend solo'd the final fight on his Brute while I did nothing but give him World of Pain and Painbringer.  We are strong players, even with my character neutered and almost completely ineffective, he was more than capable of defeating the multiple Nemesis AVs.

[golstat2003]

Agree with this suggestion. 
 

I’ve never been in favor of newer content made in a way that neuters entire ATs.

 

Single mission changes to make powers like confuse less effective in certain encounters to avoid one player cheesing an entire encounter/TF? Fine, makes sense for obvious reasons.

 

Entire ATs being made ineffective? No, no thanks.

 

This suggestion seems like a good idea if the encounter makers want to keep having things like unavoidable zone wide death traps and the sort. LOL

[nyttyn]

Yeah, I fully agree pets need some way to be immune for a bit while being raised, make upgrades automatic, or even both. There's nothing you can really do when you're stuck in the failure vortex. 

 

The task force kind of invalidates stuff in general, I did it in a trio with two friends and the fact that I brought a tanker was totally moot since the TF was full of auto-hit stuff or attacks that completely ignored aggro or did a massive AoE. 

 

Really poorly designed TF. 

[arcane]

Can’t say that “was trying to duo advanced mode content” was the best way to start making a case. I don’t know that anyone should reasonably expect success under those conditions. That said the proposed idea might still be a good one.

[Captain Fabulous]

Patience, young padawan.

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Patience, young padawan.

   While we wait, an AT is relegated to being a useless sack of shit: a half-strength Defender with no attacks.  But it's okay because MMs are "strong" on really easy content that presented no challenge, and we can't buff them too much or they might be OP on easy content.

[Captain Fabulous]

28 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

   While we wait, an AT is relegated to being a useless sack of shit: a half-strength Defender with no attacks.  But it's okay because MMs are "strong" on really easy content that presented no challenge, and we can't buff them too much or they might be OP on easy content.

Hyperbole much? Settle down Beavis.

[srmalloy]

6 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

We get knocked down, we get back up again.

So you're Weebles, then...

[Arbegla]

On 11/29/2025 at 11:05 AM, Captain Fabulous said:

Patience, young padawan.

I'll second this but also add that I solo'ed the ZTF on my bot/traps MM and while it wasn't in advanced mode, I was able to complete it in a pretty decent time (about 2 hours) and that's with clearing all of the maps and looking for hidden easter eggs (also reading each of the new mobs 'About' sections because I like new stuff) 

 

I did not experience any deaths until the last mission, where there is a LOT of AoE from long range snipers in hard to reach areas. This seems intended and I loved the use of actual 'Sniper' mobs being placed in hard to reach areas as it really leveraged their AI. I think I died a total of 4 times, but one of them was due to the 'CRUNCH' cuz I just walked off the edge without thinking about it. I did notice the pets are immune to CRUNCH already which is a nice bonus.

[Ghost]

It's a wonder anyone still plays this game.

I think every last AT and powerset has been declared "completely useless" at least once.

🤔

[Lockely]

While I don't agree that MMs are "completely useless" once we get into the Failure Vortex as nyttyn so succinctly put it, I do agree that our contributions are greatly diminished as all we do once we fall into that state is either keep refreshing buffs on the party (because we're trying to get our minions back up and running), or fall back and actually contribute nothing while we reset. That being said, some encounters force us into the Failure Vortex and there's not a whole lot we can regardless if we force a reset or not.

[arcane]

21 hours ago, Ghost said:

It's a wonder anyone still plays this game.

I think every last AT and powerset has been declared "completely useless" at least once.

🤔

There are people on my global list that do nothing but make dozens of fire blast/ice blast/battle axe/bio armor/cold dom/kinetics/nature/marine characters over and over and over. No harm done if they want to play that way but it’s clear to me that there is a decent size population of generally good players that has no idea what average performance looks like in this game.

[Fira]

I agree that pets need some form of AoE mitigation during respawn to prevent fail spiral, but as I've ranted on Discord, it really goes beyond that.

 

I'm not getting into a 50 pages long post, but MM pets are generally speaking stupidly weak in AoE hostile environments, not just during resummoning. It's only way more telling during resummon because Aura IOs might not be active, Resistance isn't up, and your barriers aren't stacked. 

 

MMs are the only AT that can get hit 7 times per attack. Any EB/AV can nuke pets that aren't Res stacked with 10% clamped Hit chance hitting 6 targets (do the math). Pets need some kind of AoE mitigation, the likes of which have apparently ALREADY been put in some places like iTrials (personal experience, to be confirmed) in Live days.

 

Give pets AoE mitigation, and balance it out by nerfing bodyguard damage transfer, because that part, on the other hand, is completely busted.

[Arbegla]

36 minutes ago, Fira said:

Give pets AoE mitigation, and balance it out by nerfing bodyguard damage transfer, because that part, on the other hand, is completely busted.

 

I'll definitely second the fact that pets need more AOE defense (or flat out immunity, as is the case in some iTrials and task forces) but please don't nerf Bodyguard mode, as MMs have the lowest base HPs of any of the other ATs. MMs have to work really really hard to get above 1000 hitpoints, and most don't even have that.

[tidge]

I think there are two dominant effects:

 

1) Server-Client and Game resolution of aura applications (for everything, including Bodyguard, Supremacy, damage dealt, etc)

 

2) Player expectations being incompatible with "how to play"

 

The first might be able to be mitigated for "death spirals" of henchmen getting clobbered before they have finished animating on summons, but it surely isn't some broad mitigation of "AoE damage"... For example, the henchmen could have a "complete immunity" for a duration equivalent to the animation time... but that would have to be a special sort of immunity that allows them to start benefiting from buffs/auras/Supremacy/fishcakes. I'm not sure this is possible, or if it wouldn't immediately be susceptible to the same complaints we already get.

 

 Alternatively... MMs have to adapt their strategies vs content, which is something that almost no other AT must do. Standing toe-to-toe with something that has a base ToHit of 75% means that you had better have the henches at 25% better defenses than they have against even con minions.... or maybe not summon them where they are likely to get hit by AoE.

 

Obviously the content designers have limited tools to make things harder, but considering Destiny Barrier exists... we are almost certainly going to see more auto-hit enemy powers.

[Fira]

18 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

I'll definitely second the fact that pets need more AOE defense (or flat out immunity, as is the case in some iTrials and task forces) but please don't nerf Bodyguard mode, as MMs have the lowest base HPs of any of the other ATs. MMs have to work really really hard to get above 1000 hitpoints, and most don't even have that.

 

Sorry, to clarify, i'm suggesting making it so pets take more damage through bodyguard to offset their increased resilience to AoE damage. I agree the mitigation on MM side should stay unchanged, it's a separate matter.

[Fira]

 

38 minutes ago, tidge said:

Alternatively... MMs have to adapt their strategies vs content, which is something that almost no other AT must do. Standing toe-to-toe with something that has a base ToHit of 75% means that you had better have the henches at 25% better defenses than they have against even con minions.... or maybe not summon them where they are likely to get hit by AoE.

 

I don't want to sidetrack this post more, but you're operating off a faulty assumption regarding relevance of Def. 

 

In a situation where a Def Capped player tanks with their HP pool and toggles and barely survives an AV hit (10% hit chance) and can expect to recover until next hit, the 6 Def Capped Henchmen have neither luxury, meaning statistically 0.6 of them will get one-shot every time.

 

Edited yesterday at 05:23 PM by Fira

[Jacke]

On 11/29/2025 at 12:51 PM, srmalloy said:

So you're Weebles, then...

 

Can't be Weebles.  They wobble, but they don't fall down.  😺

 

 

[tidge]

8 hours ago, Fira said:

I don't want to sidetrack this post more, but you're operating off a faulty assumption regarding relevance of Def. 

 

In a situation where a Def Capped player tanks with their HP pool and toggles and barely survives an AV hit (10% hit chance) and can expect to recover until next hit, the 6 Def Capped Henchmen have neither luxury, meaning statistically 0.6 of them will get one-shot every time.

 

 

MMs don't have to have all of their henchmen standing in the same place. This is part of what I meant when I wrote:

 

9 hours ago, tidge said:

Alternatively... MMs have to adapt their strategies vs content, which is something that almost no other AT must do. Standing toe-to-toe with something that has a base ToHit of 75% means that you had better have the henches at 25% better defenses than they have against even con minions.... or maybe not summon them where they are likely to get hit by AoE.

 

I get it... not every solo MM encounter with an AV or GM plays like scrapper-lock is a winning strategy. I've got some MMs that can do exactly that... but for some content I expliciltly have to pay more attention to what the henchmen are doing.... and for the content where I can play the MM like a scrapper/blapper/contrapper... I *still* have to pay attention for when things begin to go pear-shaped.

 

Put another way: The game can be exceptionally easy for some ATs and builds. The game isn't harder for MMs. (EDIT: Unless you seek out content specifically to make it harder... but that is true for most ATs)

 

Edited 16 hours ago by tidge

[dangeraaron10]

Personally I'd go a step further and implement something World of Warcraft has had for their pet classes since its second expansion: Avoidance.  Pets resist 90% of AoE damage.  

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, dangeraaron10 said:

Personally I'd go a step further and implement something World of Warcraft has had for their pet classes since its second expansion: Avoidance.  Pets resist 90% of AoE damage.  

 

This. I don't mind encounters have to be more complicated due to things like Barrier.  With that said there should be options to not add annoyance to playing a certain AT just because of that.

 

Annoy me (me as in general player) enough and I stop playing that primary/secondary/AT. Surely that is not what the devs intend?

 

EDIT: Whether we like it or not players don't stop playing their MMs (or any non Armored AT) at 50, and will continue trying to bring that AT into hard mode, itrials, incarnate content etc. Either the content designers keep in mind how each encounter can affect certain ATs (I think this is too much of a burden on encounter creators) or things are put in place that help out those ATs in those certain encounters.

 

EDIT2: With that also said I'm not sure I agree that the baseline here should be one player and one MM being able to 2-man a Advanced mode version of a TF. A TF on regular settings, sure. But Advanced mode is a specific setting that makes specific assumptions about difficulty. Advanced mode has been out in the game long enough now that I think all players should assume there is going to be things in them that any 2 man team is not expected to always be able to overcome. Let's keep it real on player expectations side also.

Edited 6 hours ago by golstat2003