page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I'm pretty sure the only reason this thread isnt a flaming dumpster fire with pitchforks and torches is because of the fact UM is better than rage in good brute hands.

 

I could complain that theoretically either choice between Rage and UM should be viable and it looks like Rage is going to be the unwanted sibling by just about everyone, but I was never one to stack Rage and am there mostly for the animations and effects while wanting reasonable damage output. 

 

Though I have to admit that as much as I've never wanted to make an SS Tanker, I am wondering just how absurd I could get following the suggestion upthread to overstack Resistance so the crash is meaningless and go for the gusto. Or....Energy Aura!

 

Just like on resistance sets, Tankers get a boost on defense values from their primary (though Entropic Aura does not seem to be boosted in Mid's and City of Data has not been updated to include Energy Aura for Tankers). And a Tanker wants to be in the midst of foes, so keeping Entropic Aura saturated should not be a problem. Toss in some Force Feedbacks in the various KB powers and I am pretty the world of perma-Hasten and double stacked Rage should not be an issue...nor Endurance since you have Energy Drain (though you should be able to swing perma-Energize, which is probably better for not needing to bother juicing up periodically). 

 

Yeah, only 50%ish DDR, but things on their butt from your KDs don't get to attack as often.

[Super Atom]

if the first rage gave more of a buff then the second one to maintain a more stable experience damage wise but not lose the crash/strack mechanic entirely it might be a bit easier to mess with but idk if ya'll tried it that way or not already and it flopped already or not lol

[ScarySai]

Fact of the matter is the crash is just overly punitive for what rage actually does, and they made it worse, especially for people not rocking a fully fitted build.

 

Like double rage ss isnt even close to top tier, so why are we hitting it so hard? Because a power dev doesn't like it?

[Luminara]

Can the 20% -Res be resisted?

[Psi-bolt]

47 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Can the 20% -Res be resisted?

 

No.

[Bill Z Bubba]

57 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Can the 20% -Res be resisted?

 

9 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

No.

 

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

Though I have to admit that as much as I've never wanted to make an SS Tanker, I am wondering just how absurd I could get following the suggestion upthread to overstack Resistance so the crash is meaningless and go for the gusto.

 

Problem solved. On both the defense and resist sides. Edit: Should probably choose the toggle when they port this to scrappers.

 

Enjoy!

Edited yesterday at 07:08 PM by Bill Z Bubba

[Zahnee]

Ran my main Tanker, Elec/SS/Soul, through some solo +4*8 PI Radio missions (my bread and butter on live). I found the experience completely unfun.

 

Rage crash destroys my Tanker. 90% S/L/E/F/C Res to 70% is insane. It brings my resistances lower than the Scrapper resistance cap, and not only do I not have Scrapper damage to eliminate packs quickly to save myself, I do zero damage outside of procs for the crashes duration. Power Sink is now used on cooldown to maintain my regen, where before it was used situationally. I'm spending significantly more time trying to survive by popping cooldowns and inspirations than dealing damage, which is massively unfun. 

 

Also gave Unleashed Might a chance, seeing as that's the direction we're being funneled to. While the Unleashed Might version of Hand Clap is great, I found the toggle completely underwhelming otherwise. Clear times are slower than the double Rage iteration, probably due to a big loss of damage to Foot Stomp and Dark Obliteration. I altered slotting in attacks to add in more +Acc due to the reduction in +ToHit from UM compared to Rage, which may have factored into some damage loss as well. I figured no crash would help my survivability, but UM was a hit to clear speed for me, which was a hit to survivability. I live by the fact that "dead enemies deal no damage."

 

As of now, I recommend not just rolling back the Rage changes, but getting rid of the -Def during the crash altogether. If you want Defense sets to play, let them play. If you want a version of Super Strength without Rage, don't force our hand, give us options. Or just remove Rage, which is what this change appears to intend to do.

 

My second suggestion would be to give Rage users the same version of Hand Clap as Unleashed Might (scaled down, obviously).

 

This was a general impression, and I'll consider running some clear speed tests to compare the two versions objectively if I have the time. Or I'll just reroll as a Brute which seems to benefit more from UM than Tanker without having to sacrifice my theme.

[Major_Decoy]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Can the 20% -Res be resisted?

 

This is, in theory, why an unresistable -20% resistance hits resistance tanks harder. If you have 0% resists and you're hit with -20% resist. You take 120% damage. If you have 50% resists and you're hit with a resistable 20% debuff, it's actually a 10% debuff, you go from 50% to 40% on a 100 damage attack, you go from 50 to 60 which is a 20% increase in damage. If you get hit with an unresistable 20% debuff you go from 50% to 30%, you go from 50 to 70 which is a 40% increase in damage. At 90% resistance, a resistable 20% takes you from 90% to 88% you go from taking 10 to taking 12, which is a 20% increase. An unresistable 20% takes you from 90% to 70%, you go from taking 10 to taking 30, which is a 200% increase.

[Psi-bolt]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Though I have to admit that as much as I've never wanted to make an SS Tanker, I am wondering just how absurd I could get following the suggestion upthread to overstack Resistance so the crash is meaningless and go for the gusto. Or....Energy Aura!

 

 

 

I was definitely able to overstack Smashing Lethal resists to the point that the crash still left me at 90%.  

 

Testing an Invul/SS tanker just to see how Rage feels compared to Unleashed Might.    It feels to me that I would prefer Unleashed Might.  I had it so Rage was doubled up for a fair bit of time and the damage boost is really nice.  But ultimately, I already miss Hand Clap's AoE damage.   As stated earlier in the thread, this is a very elegant solution.  This gives players an incentive to forgo Rage without reducing its functionality.   The changes to the Rage crash don't feel all that meaningful to me.  You're a bit weaker for a few seconds.  Just like on live that's when I chew an inspiration and move on.  

[Super Atom]

4 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

Just like on live

 

IIRC on Live the crash didn't give you any -def or -res if you stacked rage. IT was a bug they knew about but didn't care to fix cause nobody liked the rage crash.

 

Homecoming fixed it, the forums caught on fire and 6 years later here we are.

 

They said even back then they wanted to redo it and now they have. Might ❤️ 

Edited 21 hours ago by Super Atom
changed "actually on live" to "iirc on live" because it's closer to how i meant it.

[Major_Decoy]

6 minutes ago, Zahnee said:

Ran my main Tanker, Elec/SS/Soul, through some solo +4*8 PI Radio missions (my bread and butter on live). I found the experience completely unfun.

 

Rage crash destroys my Tanker. 90% S/L/E/F/C Res to 70% is insane. It brings my resistances lower than the Scrapper resistance cap, and not only do I not have Scrapper damage to eliminate packs quickly to save myself, I do zero damage outside of procs for the crashes duration. Power Sink is now used on cooldown to maintain my regen, where before it was used situationally. I'm spending significantly more time trying to survive by popping cooldowns and inspirations than dealing damage, which is massively unfun. 

 

The "I do zero damage outside of procs for the crash's duration" aspect hasn't changed from live servers, so I don't see how that changes your experience at all. It's not really material to the discussion of the changes.

 

How did you build your electric tank to have exactly 90% Energy resist and no more? If you have 64% S/L/F/C then you've got at least 120% Energy resist. On the Electric/Super Strength tank I built with the target of "perma-hasten" I'm at 89% smashing/lethal resistance during the crash and 79% fire/cold resistance, and that's with 0 stacks of Superior Might of the Tanker. Which Superior Might of the Tanker in Haymaker, I was seeing three stacks for most fights.

 

Yes, I was using Power sink and Energize the whole time, but I didn't really see any reason not to. I also wasn't using inspirations.

 

This was a build with no incarnate powers.

 

Also, not a perfect build. Arachnos was destroying me. I think a Bane spider was hitting me with a defense debuff and my defenses were in the -80% range. That wasn't during a rage crash.

[Zahnee]

I meant the current version of Homecoming, not actually live service. Sorry for the confusion. I’ll give a proper reply in a bit as well as post my build. 

[ExeErdna]

Since Unleashed Might is gonna be the safety choice. Rage needs a buff pull it up to 120-150% keep so it can double up. That crash is nasty, especially on NEWER mob types that have more debuff potential. Since if a tanker can't really recover due to a mistimed/illtimed crash during an alpha strike. That 20% hurts. It may not factor with Stone, Elec, Eng and Dark like that. Yet it puts it's own classic paring with Invincible in trouble since -20 on psi when it isn't really that high to begin with. Since this isn't about the armors like that. Rage needs to Punch Up a bit more.

[Major_Decoy]

Unleashed Might feedback:

 

The constant glow is annoying. It absolutely needs a minimum effects option. 

Handclap, probably an improvement. I have a little trouble aiming an untargeted cone. This isn't really a problem and it's fine as long as I take a moment to remember "This isn't guaranteed to something in the area of effect just because it activates" I do wish hand clap had different sound effects from Foot stomp.

 

Being able to one-shot a Malta sapper with Knock-out blow is nice. (edit: if you're wondering, my Willpower/Super Strength Tanker is rageless because Rage doesn't fit the concept)

Edited 23 hours ago by Major_Decoy

[FupDup]

In addition to reducing the def/res penalty in general, I think another angle could also be making it scale based on your AT modifiers. Bio Armor's new nerfs have the def/res penalty stronger on ATs with higher modifiers because those ATs can more easily compensate for it. Perhaps that could be employed here as well, since a Tanker can more easily eat the penalty than a Brute. 

Edited 20 hours ago by FupDup

[Biff Pow]

19 minutes ago, FupDup said:

Perhaps that could be employed here as well, since a Tanker can more easily eat a penalty than a Stalker or Scrapper. 

 

Stalkers and Scrappers don't get Super Strength. And Brute's defensive numbers get a buff in this update.

[Wavicle]

14 minutes ago, Biff Pow said:

 

Stalkers and Scrappers don't get Super Strength. And Brute's defensive numbers get a buff in this update.

Calling it now:

Super Strength will be ported to Scrappers and Stalkers, but Rage won't be an option, only Unleashed Might for Scrappers and Build Up for Stalkers, and Stalkers won't get Knockout Blow, they'll get Assassin's Knockout.

Edited 20 hours ago by Wavicle

[FupDup]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Calling it now:

Super Strength will be ported to Scrappers and Stalkers, but Rage won't be an option, only Unleashed Might for Scrappers and Build Up for Stalkers, and Stalkers won't get Knockout Blow, they'll get Assassin's Knockout.

Most likely, since I vaguely remember somebody stating that Rage was the reason for those ATs not having SS ported yet. 

[Erratic1]

59 minutes ago, FupDup said:

In addition to reducing the def/res penalty in general, I think another angle could also be making it scale based on your AT modifiers. Bio Armor's new nerfs have the def/res penalty stronger on ATs with higher modifiers because those ATs can more easily compensate for it. Perhaps that could be employed here as well, since a Tanker can more easily eat the penalty than a Brute. 

 

As my original labor of love character is an SS/Bio Brute, just imagine how much I'm looking forward to the changes. 😳

 

Right now I am crafting on Test to see about rebuilding him as SS/Willpower. 

[ScarySai]

6 hours ago, Super Atom said:

Homecoming fixed it, the forums caught on fire and 6 years later here we are.

 

This is 100% why they're nerfing rage so hard now, let's be real. They can't let anything go.

Edited 19 hours ago by ScarySai

[Psyonico]

On 12/6/2025 at 6:07 PM, Zahnee said:

You’re missing out on the full potential of an already mildly performing set.

You keep saying that SS is a mid tier set.  Ston's testing shows it as #1 for brutes on live.

[Super Atom]

Also that reminds me

 

The cone hand clap's FX is kinda weird now, while it might be too late to do now might be worth doing later. It's still a big aoe bubble.

 

unless im wrong and people think its fine idk im not a cop

[Zahnee]

Here's my main build. Got the UM version to very identical numbers, dropped Fighting, picked up and proc'd out Haymaker and Hand Clap. Switched slots in Gloom for accuracy. Everything else is nearly identical.

 

Just ran pylon tests and my Rage build is a full minute faster than Unleashed Might. Ran Arc 23935 for clear speed and Rage build was 2 mins faster than UM build. This was quick and only a couple runs of each, but its all I had time for tonight. Not sure how much more I can bash my head against a wall trying to see how this change does anything except nerf Tanker SS damage without Rage or punish both Defense and Resistance based sets for using it.

 

I invite anyone else to give it a go. I'd love to see how Unleashed Might can beat out Rage. I'd actually love to see both Rage and Unleashed Might do better. If the goal of this was to make SS not crutch on double Rage, it didn't work. It just made this set even worse on Tankers.

Edited 17 hours ago by Zahnee

[Zahnee]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

You keep saying that SS is a mid tier set.  Ston's testing shows it as #1 for brutes on live.

Firstly, I'm talking about Tankers.

 

Secondly, if you're referring to the Brute Pylon/Trapdoor Averages chart from 2023, we can't even run trapdoor tests anymore to challenge those numbers in the modern era.

 

And the kicker is that Ston ran pylon tests recently on Brute, including SS v2, which is sitting at a winning #14 on the list. But I'm still not here to talk about Brute's Super Strength, which is vastly different due to the interaction between Fury and Unleashed Might.

[Major_Decoy]

43 minutes ago, Zahnee said:

Here's my main build. Got the UM version to very identical numbers, dropped Fighting, picked up and proc'd out Haymaker and Hand Clap. Switched slots in Gloom for accuracy. Everything else is nearly identical.

 

Oh, okay. Yeah. You skipped Tough. That's cool, I try to skip the fighting pool when I can too. I don't have it on my electric/electric tank. That'll going to make the -20% crash hurt more.

 

It's what, 10 seconds of crash every 60 or 70 seconds? That's 12 or 15% of the time in crash, which does seem fairly significant. We'll say 90% to 70% is 200% more damage, 15% of the time.

 

If we don't ignore the defense portion, 90% resist, 50% defense goes to 30% on Homecoming, so you've got a 70% chance of being hit, but you're still only taking 10% of the damage. So, during the crash you go from taking 5% of the damage to 7% of the damage, which is a 20% increase in damage. 20% * 15% is about 3% more damage over the entire fight.

 

On open beta, 90% resist 40% defense so you've got a 60% chance of being hit, and you take 30% of the damage. So you go from taking 5% of the damage to 18% of the damage which is about a 260% increase in damage. which is about 39% more damage over the entire fight.

 

Yeah, I can see how going from 3% more to 39% more is a pretty significant change.

 

Edit: This is an analysis of a specific build with no defense and just capped resistances. Is is not a sweeping analysis across sets.

Edited 17 hours ago by Major_Decoy