page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[Heatstroke]

So let me see if I have this rundown ok.. I have a few SS characters

 

SS/Energy Brute who does get hit kind f hard with the rage crash might be better off with Unleashed Might. He will lose the benefit of double stacked rage but will get a touch more damage and have better survival in the long run. 

WP/SS tank probably wont notice the new rage crash penalty as much because he heals really fast in most cases. 

Shield/SS Tank might should be fine with Rage Crash as his HP cap and Defense cap is higher than the brutes. Could drop OWTS which is barely slotted pick up Ulenashed Might and the Handclap with damage which would give him three AoE attack on a tank would be nice..

Elec/SS tank looks like the odd man out with these changes to rage.. Since he has very little defense the - res would really hurt him big time meaning he might need to lean on his heals and the T9 a lot more than normal, and the new T9 IMO isnt as good as the old one. 

BUT It might be time to make that Fire Armor/SS Tank or Brute Ive been mulling about for a while with the changes to Fire Armor and SS Unleashed might.. Having a Damage Aura. Burn, Footstomp and Handclap is an AoE monster in the making !!!!
 

[Eirei07]

3 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

I have a SS/SR Brute on Test... 

 

I slotted both Handclap and Footstomp with Force Feedback. 6 slots.

 

It feels -amazing- to slap a crowd of skulls around, then footstomp before they get out of range of it. Then fight the people who didn't get knocked back with my ST chain while the others file back in.

 

I would say that the new version of Hand Clap for UM in beta is a straight up upgrade from the current version. You barely feel the loss of the PBAOE range, as the new cone is a fat 180 degree that hit everything in front of you. A kb to kd IO is no longer necessary to slot to avoid mobs being scattered everywhere, and it now has damage and benefits from damage enchants instead of dealing zero damage.

 

I think it would be great if the new version is made available to everyone who uses the powerset.

Edited December 10 by Eirei07

[ScarySai]

Hurl's the main thing that needs a change, far too slow for what it is. At least impale has a beefy DoT to justify it.

 

Hell, maybe go the funny route: Make it work like propel where you just grab random crap to throw at your target.

Edited December 10 by ScarySai

[Black_Assassin]

11 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

I have a SS/SR Brute on Test... 

 

I slotted both Handclap and Footstomp with Force Feedback. 6 slots.

 

It feels -amazing- to slap a crowd of skulls around, then footstomp before they get out of range of it. Then fight the people who didn't get knocked back with my ST chain while the others file back in.

 

 

At least you've got an option you really enjoy. Because with that slotting you'll be there a long time doing what you love most 😂

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Black_Assassin said:

 

At least you've got an option you really enjoy. Because with that slotting you'll be there a long time doing what you love most 😂

   I love Foot Stomp with no dmg procs, it's my favorite thing. 

 

-JJDracken

[Myrmidon]

8 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Hurl's the main thing that needs a change, far too slow for what it is. At least impale has a beefy DoT to justify it.

 

Hell, maybe go the funny route: Make it work like propel where you just grab random crap to throw at your target.

 

If they could pull this off (tech was the main issue when I asked for this years ago), I would use this power even if it had no damage.

[Zahnee]

If the goal is to phase out Rage, you’ve accomplished it on Brutes, but not on Tankers. This is due to how damage scaling objectively favors Brutes due to Fury. 
 

Either completely revert the Rage -res debuff or give us a bigger incentive to use Unleashed Might on Tankers. This one change functionally destroys solo Super Strength Tankers—without team buffs to prop up resistance or defense with Rage crash, or outside damage buffs to prop up Unleashed Might’s modified attacks, this is a net decline in performance without justification.
 

All iterations of Super Strength need the new Hand Clap variation. It makes no sense to lock Hand Clap’s full functionality behind the choice between Rage and Unleashed Might, unless your only goal is to phase out Rage, which deserves an elaborate explanation that we could have dialogue on. 
 

I will admit, Super Strength does have an issue on Tankers by overly relying on procs, but this does not solve that issue. “Proc bomb” Super Strength builds are still worse than other “proc bomb” builds in the current state of the game, and all these changes do is widen the gap between them. 
 

Unleashed Might needs something more on Tankers, and I’m not sure if it’s a bigger %dmg boost or larger dmg increase scales.

Edited Wednesday at 01:16 PM by Zahnee

[Steampunkette]

4 hours ago, Black_Assassin said:

 

At least you've got an option you really enjoy. Because with that slotting you'll be there a long time doing what you love most 😂

Yup! If you're not playing the game for clear time it takes a little longer!

 

Shocker, I know! That someone might want to slot for lots of KB then use Musculature Alpha to get about the same damage as someone slotting for damage by avoiding high end ED. Sure it's not the cutting edge of proc-bombing, but it's solid and enjoyable.

[PyroBeetle]

12 hours ago, Eirei07 said:

I would say that the new version of Hand Clap for UM in beta is a straight up upgrade from the current version. You barely feel the loss of the PBAOE range, as the new cone is a fat 180 degree that hit everything in front of you. A kb to kd IO is no longer necessary to slot to avoid mobs being scattered everywhere, and it now has damage and benefits from damage enchants instead of dealing zero damage.

I think that is exactly the point, that it is a straight up upgrade for using UM instead of Rage. If you are going to leave Rage in the game, and double stack Rage is still going to be a thing, there needs to be a trade off. UM, even on a Brute with all of the changes, does not exceed the outright damage that a double stack Rage procbomb character can output. Giving the new Handclap to a doublestack Rage build would just be...overpowered.

 

Really crying for the new toys and wanting to keep Rage is like saying you want to have your cake and eat it too.

24 minutes ago, Zahnee said:

Either completely revert the Rage -res debuff or give us a bigger incentive to use Unleashed Might on Tankers. This one change functionally destroys solo Super Strength Tankers—without team buffs to prop up resistance or defense with Rage crash, or outside damage buffs to prop up Unleashed Might’s modified attacks, this is a net decline in performance without justification.

 There was essentially no risk to taking and double stacking rage on a resist based character prior to these changes. This allowed them to enjoy the massive payoff for double stacking rage with rpoc bombed builds that far exceeded the damage that a tanker could and should do. There should be a tradeoff for that performance, and the risk for using rage, which is still far more effective at throughputting damage than UM, should be applied equitably across armor sets.

[FupDup]

Another idea: Make the penalty only half the size, but make it stack twice. The dev fear is double Rage, so this would let single stack Rage have some more breathing room (in exchange for less cowbell). 

[Steampunkette]

1 hour ago, FupDup said:

Another idea: Make the penalty only half the size, but make it stack twice. The dev fear is double Rage, so this would let single stack Rage have some more breathing room (in exchange for less cowbell). 

1) Half the penalty would be an even larger buff to defense builds.

2) If you manage to get two rage crashes at the same time I'm deeply impressed and curious how tredecituple-stacking rage is going for you...

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 02:57 PM by Steampunkette
(Tredecituple is 13 times. With a 120 second duration and a 10 second crash that would be the minimum value to have enough overlap to get double-stacked rage crash)

[Sovera]

Bring numbers to the table, people. Some are already doing it, but more will add more data.

 

Do a couple runs with UM, do a couple runs with the new Rage, do a couple runs with Rage on live. Bring completion time runs. This will help the devs massage the numbers.

 

Above all it will show it's not a kneejerk reaction.

 

Heck, when Fire Armor was first tweak and Burn 'fixed' I kept posting pylon times, and though I'm not going to say it changed things I'd like to think someone noticed the discrepancy between live (at the time) and beta (at the time) and tweaked the numbers up.

[FupDup]

9 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

1) Half the penalty would be an even larger buff to defense builds.

2) If you manage to get two rage crashes at the same time I'm deeply impressed and curious how tredecituple-stacking rage is going for you...

 

 

The game would have to track how many stacks of Rage you had active at the time of crash, and scale the crash based on your stacks. Obviously, getting the 10s window to line up normally is a tall order. 

[Steampunkette]

Just now, FupDup said:

The game would have to track how many stacks of Rage you had active at the time of crash, and scale the crash based on your stacks. Obviously, getting the 10s window to line up normally is a tall order. 

So -if- you manage to double stack, you would get half the penalty that regular Rage on live crashing only once gets...

 

... That seems like it's just a massive buff to Superstrength.

[FupDup]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

So -if- you manage to double stack, you would get half the penalty that regular Rage on live crashing only once gets...

 

... That seems like it's just a massive buff to Superstrength.

Double stacked Rage would get the current proposed 10/20 penalty, which is definitely harsher than live in most cases. Single stack would get 5/10. 

[Steampunkette]

8 minutes ago, FupDup said:

Double stacked Rage would get the current proposed 10/20 penalty, which is definitely harsher than live in most cases. Single stack would get 5/10. 

It is not harsher than live. It is MASSIVELY less harsh than live... depending on spec.

 

Right now, on live, a Defense spec character at Softcap goes to taking 400% additional damage in rage crash. From 10% of incoming damage to 50%.

 

A Resistance spec character at 90% resistance on live takes 20% extra damage. Going from 10% incoming damage to 12%.

 

Post-patch, the Defense character will drop down to 220% extra damage, from 10% to 32%.

 

Post-patch, the Resistance character will shoot up to 230% extra damage. From 10% to 33%.

 

It's only "Harsher" if you've been using Resistance builds to avoid the crash increasing your damage taken by any meaningful amount. Otherwise it's less harsh than it was, before. It not only halves the penalty for Defense builds, it creates parity between build types, increasing build variety.

[Gobbledigook]

Would it not be better if Rage lowered max health by a percentage instead of defense/resistances? That way everyone would be hit equally.

 

I would rather that Handclap became the cone damage attack and hurl stayed single target with a 1.5 second activation time like Dom's version. That way the aoe in the set is not all at the end of the set.

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:55 PM by Gobbledigook

[drbuzzard]

14 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

It is not harsher than live. It is MASSIVELY less harsh than live... depending on spec.

 

Right now, on live, a Defense spec character at Softcap goes to taking 400% additional damage in rage crash. From 10% of incoming damage to 50%.

 

A Resistance spec character at 90% resistance on live takes 20% extra damage. Going from 10% incoming damage to 12%.

 

Post-patch, the Defense character will drop down to 220% extra damage, from 10% to 32%.

 

Post-patch, the Resistance character will shoot up to 230% extra damage. From 10% to 33%.

 

It's only "Harsher" if you've been using Resistance builds to avoid the crash increasing your damage taken by any meaningful amount. Otherwise it's less harsh than it was, before. It not only halves the penalty for Defense builds, it creates parity between build types, increasing build variety.

 

 

You have your math wrong. Very wrong. I'm on the Unleashed Might side with you, but math is math. 

 

Say I have a tanker keeping Bobcat's attention on a Tin Mage run. She hits me for 3000 damage, and my 90% l/s resistance drops this to 300. If I have a rage drop of 20% and I was right at the cap, I now have 70% l/s resistance and I take 900 damage. That's a 200% increase in felt damage (300 +200%= 900). 

 

Ok, now the defense side of the math is a bit more complicated. Base chance to hit for a minion is 50% with a minimum of 5%. People thus build for a 45% defense softcap (leaving out incarnate play). The floor numbers vary for other enemy classes, but the 50% is the top I believe for normal play. Hence you have mitigated 90% of incoming damage when you softcap (for minions). That's how the defense/resistance parity can be calculated (we are not going to address carried debuffs and such). Current state is you lose 20% of defense on a rage crash. Thus your 45% goes to 25% defense. That means half of the damage (remember, 50% base) is mitigated and you are taking an additional 400% damage. With the change and dropping only 10% to 35%, you are taking 15% (we start at 50%) and thus are taking 200% more damage than before which is parity with the resistance sets. 

 

 

[Gobbledigook]

Or what about a 5% defense, 10% resistance and a 10-15% max health debuff instead. Or just don't allow Rage to stack and adjust SS primary attacks where needed?

 

Edited Wednesday at 04:53 PM by Gobbledigook

[aethereal]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I want to note that I'm pretty sure that a Super Reflexes or Shield Defense Tanker can trivially get to 55% in every positional defense.  Heck, since I built a Ninjutsu Sentinel in the old 0.7 modifier regime who got about 50% in all of the positionals, I'm pretty sure a Brute in the new 0.85 modifier regime can get to 55%.

 

I don't think Resistance-based Tankers can get to 110% Resistance in all the resistances, but I'm pretty sure I've seen builds where they get to 110% in several important resistances.

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I want to note that I'm pretty sure that a Super Reflexes or Shield Defense Tanker can trivially get to 55% in every positional defense.  Heck, since I built a Ninjutsu Sentinel in the old 0.7 modifier regime who got about 50% in all of the positionals, I'm pretty sure a Brute in the new 0.85 modifier regime can get to 55%.

 

I don't think Resistance-based Tankers can get to 110% Resistance in all the resistances, but I'm pretty sure I've seen builds where they get to 110% in several important resistances.

 

What about hybrid armors that stand to be double-whacked?

[drbuzzard]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I want to note that I'm pretty sure that a Super Reflexes or Shield Defense Tanker can trivially get to 55% in every positional defense.  Heck, since I built a Ninjutsu Sentinel in the old 0.7 modifier regime who got about 50% in all of the positionals, I'm pretty sure a Brute in the new 0.85 modifier regime can get to 55%.

 

I don't think Resistance-based Tankers can get to 110% Resistance in all the resistances, but I'm pretty sure I've seen builds where they get to 110% in several important resistances.

 

 

It is trivially easy for SR to get the numbers you mention since people do build for incarnate content which is 57% (probably SD as well, but I haven't looked at that as much). 

 

Getting to 110% resistance will be very set dependent on what particular damage types you are concerned with. Fire for fire, Inuvlnerability for l/s, or Electric or energy are already there. You can probably pump up l/s on most of the resistance sets to 110% by adding toughness (tanks generally don't need it anymore unless they are not a dedicated resistance set). However that will cost people their proc slots which ultimately is what this comes down to. 

Edited Wednesday at 06:27 PM by drbuzzard

[aethereal]

25 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

What about hybrid armors that stand to be double-whacked?

As opposed to the present case where they take a -20% defense?  If your defense is an important mitigation layer for you and you can't built it to unearthly levels, neither version of Rage is good for you.

[ScarySai]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

Do a couple runs with UM, do a couple runs with the new Rage, do a couple runs with Rage on live. Bring completion time runs. This will help the devs massage the numbers.

 

Completion times aren't important on a defensive test. Rage functions exactly how it did before on clear speed.

 

It's those times you get one shot by a +5 boss because you're taking 40% extra damage on a low resist character that will be a deal breaker.

 

Honestly, if the defensive crash is going to remain that harsh, the offensive one needs to go. If they ever address procs, ss with rage is the most self trolling decision in the game.

Edited Wednesday at 06:16 PM by ScarySai

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

Completion times aren't important on a defensive test. Rage functions exactly how it did before on clear speed.

 

It's those times you get one shot by a +5 boss because you're taking 40% extra damage on a low resist character that will be a deal breaker.

 

Honestly, if the defensive crash is going to remain that harsh, the offensive one needs to go.

 

The quote you got that from was replying to someone saying that UM was underpowered and everything felt slower with it.