page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[Psi-bolt]

1 hour ago, Player-1 said:

Hello everyone,

 

Pulling this version of Super Strength back was my call as the feedback highlighted some deeper design issues with the kit and its interactions with non-set powers.

 

I want to take a bit more time to really highlight the feeling of being Super Strong and shore up the shortcomings of the existing powers in a way that is not frustrating to play. 

 

This will be coming back on the next cycle, which should be here much sooner thanks to taking it off of the current patch.

 

Please reconsider adding Unleashed Might.  This very long thread has mostly been people complaining about Rage (and mostly not the changes on test).  Let UM go live and then take your time with Rage.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just replace rage with UM and be done with it.

[PoptartsNinja]

Put me in the column of people who were really interested in seeing Unleashed Might. "Rage" as a concept is better represented by Brute fury anyway.

Just give Super Strength the full overhaul it's needed since Issue 1, and make sure it has a consistent design intent. We've already got best-in-show single target and DPS sets, and people like Super Strength currently because of its AoE toolkit. So as long as Super Strength keeps a strong AoE toolkit I think people will still probably be ok with it.

 

... And let Hurl pull from a random selection of objects, like rocks, cars, lamp posts, crates, villain group ragdolls (if you can figure out a way to get it to 'see' the primary villain group of whatever mission you're in), and etc. Showing the set some genuine love and care by giving it something fun (even if it's only aesthetic) will help lessen the sting of loosing its crutch (especially, to maintain the analogy, if you actually rehab the set enough that it can run again).

[Lazarillo]

36 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Just replace rage with UM and be done with it.

Now, now, can't go upsetting the afk farmers by adding something that isn't designed specifically to please them...

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

Now, now, can't go upsetting the afk farmers by adding something that isn't designed specifically to please them...

Do you think maybe that's why they're so upset over a minor penalty that can be cured by a single tier 1 inspiration? Because you can't use that inspiration if you're AFK?

 

That makes more sense than anything else I can think of. Man, I hope that you're wrong. I hope that the devs aren't taking the opinions of AFK farmers into account when balancing powers.

[Zahnee]

Here’s a simple solution for the next go: increase the damage scalars for Unleashed Might on Tankers. Most of these arguments have been off course but there’s a common theme that UM is better for Brutes due to Fury, but worse for Tankers. 
 

The Rage changes are unpalatable for defense, resistance, and hybrid sets. If that change is the only compromise for the crash, we’re better off focusing our energy on the alternative: Unleashed Might. UM has had great support from the Brute side of the house and people who already disliked the Rage crash, but it cannot get my support from a Tanker perspective until it’s competitive with other sets. In this state it just simply is not. 
 

It’s well known in the community that Super Strength is not a top performing set, but most of us still pick it because of theme (I love the over-emphasized animations) and find a way by stacking Rage, procs, Cross Punch, and epic attacks to make it suck less.

I don’t think it’s possible to fairly balance UM and Rage. The moment you make UM too strong Rage becomes irrelevant. But if UM isn’t strong enough, people will fight to keep Rage as it is or to remove the crash altogether.
 

Just make UM better for Tankers and I wouldn’t care if you deleted Rage from the game. I would probably actually help support it for the betterment of Super Strength.

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

Now, now, can't go upsetting the afk farmers by adding something that isn't designed specifically to please them...

Sorry, on what planet are people using SS for AFK farming?

 

That aside, UM would be better than Rage anyways if you were going to use SS for AFK farming. I know you're hurt and looking for someone to lash out at and blame based on your last few comments in this thread but AFK farmers ain't it chief.

Edited Saturday at 12:39 AM by macskull

[Indystruck]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

Now, now, can't go upsetting the afk farmers by adding something that isn't designed specifically to please them...

 

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

Sorry, on what planet are people using SS for AFK farming?

 

Yeah that's... lol. Like, taking the powerset that would want Rage AND an AoE damage power on auto to AFK farm. If anything the toggle form would be better for AFK farmers! Then you don't have to worry about needing two auto casts!

 

Listen, I see you want to demonize the people who took the cool thing away, but, you should. Just not do this. It's silly.

[Bill Z Bubba]

42 minutes ago, Zahnee said:

Here’s a simple solution for the next go: increase the damage scalars for Unleashed Might on Tankers.

 

Yea, buff tankers even more after they had to roll back the prior buffs. That makes perfect sense!

[Biff Pow]

I thought Unleashed Might was fine on Tanks. Damage seemed a little below Rage but Hand Clap more than made up for that.

[Zahnee]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Yea, buff tankers even more after they had to roll back the prior buffs. That makes perfect sense!

I’m not asking for a Tanker buff, I’m asking for Super Strength performance to not decline by choosing Unleashed Might over Rage. 

[Jacke]

3 hours ago, Player-1 said:

Hello everyone,

 

Pulling this version of Super Strength back was my call as the feedback highlighted some deeper design issues with the kit and its interactions with non-set powers.

 

I want to take a bit more time to really highlight the feeling of being Super Strong and shore up the shortcomings of the existing powers in a way that is not frustrating to play. 

 

This will be coming back on the next cycle, which should be here much sooner thanks to taking it off of the current patch.

 

 

@Player-1, I've not been keeping up with all the discussion in this topic.  Just not up to reading that much.

 

I would STRONGLY suggest you not pull this change to Super Strength, but instead adjust and release it.

 

Because I think Unleashed Might is the change that Super Strength has needed for a long time.  I and others were looking forward to it a lot.

 

All the features of Unleashed Might I think are good.

 

As for the other changes, putting in a -Res aspect to the Rage crash seems to be the feature that most are objecting to.

 

So maybe leave Rage unchanged.  But please, give us Unleashed Might.

 

EDIT: There can be other changes done to Super Strength once it's seen how these changes impact things.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 12:59 AM by Jacke

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Zahnee said:

I’m not asking for a Tanker buff, I’m asking for Super Strength performance to not decline by choosing Unleashed Might over Rage. 

 

You only said tankers. Be specific moving forward. So now you're asking for a complete buff more than what UM already provides to all powersets that get SS, yes?

 

[Zahnee]

1 minute ago, Biff Pow said:

I thought Unleashed Might was fine on Tanks. Damage seemed a little below Rage but Hand Clap more than made up for that.

Please use some type of metric to compare and share your results. I had a full minute slower pylon time and a 2 minute slower clear speed on arc 23935 using UM.

[Zahnee]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

You only said tankers. Be specific moving forward. So now you're asking for a complete buff more than what UM already provides to all powersets that get SS, yes?

 

No, what I’m asking is for them to revisit the damage scalars specific to Tankers. Do you not understand the difference between how damage scalars affect Brutes vs Tankers due to Fury?

 

I can’t believe I spend time arguing with you when you actually believe that Tanker damage is overpowered based on your metric of a Claws/SR Scrapper having a slower pylon time than a Tanker when you 6 slot Critical Strikes. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Zahnee said:

No, what I’m asking is for them to revisit the damage scalars specific to Tankers. Do you not understand the difference between how damage scalars affect Brutes vs Tankers due to Fury?

 

I understand it completely. You've proven time and again that you don't. And you keep bringing up my slotting of Followup like it's some cardinal sin to choose set bonuses over procs like I'm the devil that I am. Hail fucking Satan.

[Zahnee]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I understand it completely. You've proven time and again that you don't. And you keep bringing up my slotting of Followup like it's some cardinal sin to choose set bonuses over procs like I'm the devil that I am. Hail fucking Satan.

It is a cardinal sin, and you should probably avoid playing Scrappers until you realize that you’re worse than a Brute if you don’t slot your Critical Strikes ATO appropriately.

[Bill Z Bubba]

17 minutes ago, Zahnee said:

It is a cardinal sin, and you should probably avoid playing Scrappers until you realize that you’re worse than a Brute if you don’t slot your Critical Strikes ATO appropriately.

 

Oh let's look, shall we? Just to prove your ignorance. In claws there is no better place to slot Superior Critical Strikes +50% crit proc than followup. Anyone not sticking in followup is an abject moron. It then supplies extra crit chances to focus and slash, should fu, focus, slash be your ST attack chain, and it also supplies extra crit to spin and shockwave should fu, spin shockwave be your aoe chain.

On top of that, it supplies +10% global recharge for all 6 pieces, needed to hit that +50% global from 5* +10% recharge, and it also supplies +4% global damage, 5% AoE defense, +15% Acc (kinda handy when you're damage buff relies on hitting) and 4% recovery.

Gee, it's almost like I don't have to rely on ageless +recovery to get the farkin job done cuz I ain't all procmostered out. And I can even exemplar to help out my SG and not be a completely useless twit while helping them get the Task Force Commander accolade.

Edited Saturday at 01:32 AM by Bill Z Bubba

[ScarySai]

Called it.

[Super Atom]

5 hours ago, Player-1 said:

Hello everyone,

 

Pulling this version of Super Strength back was my call as the feedback highlighted some deeper design issues with the kit and its interactions with non-set powers.

 

I want to take a bit more time to really highlight the feeling of being Super Strong and shore up the shortcomings of the existing powers in a way that is not frustrating to play. 

 

This will be coming back on the next cycle, which should be here much sooner thanks to taking it off of the current patch.

 

 

can you highlight the feeling of being super strong on scrapper and blaster too? stalkers too i guess if you have time. since there's a delay, or will there not be enough time in that cycle to include a proflolololfication?

 

🙏 strength manipulation

[twozerofoxtrot]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

Sorry, on what planet are people using SS for AFK farming?

<.<

>.>



¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

4 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Now, now, can't go upsetting the afk farmers by adding something that isn't designed specifically to please them...

I was actually looking forward to UM so make arbitrary number go up more faster....

[Captain Citadel]

Please just release the changes as-is. I have always hated the Rage crash. Unleashed Might is perfect.

Super Strength has needed a full rework for ages, but UM is a great first step towards that. If Rage is standing in the way of a full rework, KILL IT. 

Leave UM in there for a while, let people get used to it. Rage has fossilized to the point where a lot of people who would easily end up actually liking UM will probably never try it until you force them. Rip the band-aid off. Brute's Fury mechanic is a better version of the concept Cryptic seemed to have been going for when they first designed Rage anyway.

Unleashed Might has made playing my Invuln/SS the most fun it's been in years, literally. I'd never been able to get IO sets back on Live, so the most fun I'd had with it before this point was finally kitting out a full IO build here on HC that was almost literally unkillable and did decent damage. I'd never played a character that was so heavily resistant to all forms of damage instead of just being bulletproof, and with defenses so high that I basically dodged everything and then heavily resisted what little damage could actually land on me.

Literally the one thing left about my Invuln/SS Tanker experience that irritated me to no end was the Rage crash. Double-stacking it was fun. Hell, I eventually figured out how to double-stack it without Hasten, so I could set Rage as my only auto-power and only have to worry about Dull Pain, which I often forget to press anyway until I actually take some damage. But the 10 seconds of no damage, and sometimes dropping my toggles (because I ran out of blue inspirations or couldn't use Ageless) felt absolutely awful. So much about this game is deliberately designed to make players feel "super" that it's almost more jarring now to see a crash like that still in the game to this day.

Unleashed Might fixed all that. My character felt like he actually had Super Strength as a permanent ability, not some temporary window of immense power followed by no power and then medium power while I waited for that double-stack window to open again.

Having to rely on Mighty Judgement or Taunt as my only viable buttons during 10 seconds of no damage is very frustrating, especially as someone who only puts proc damage in my build incidentally for the set bonus, not proc-loading. Super Strength feels very weak without at least one stack of Rage up. With 2 stacks, it feels amazing, but that's because its damage is overinflated. I would rather have a middle ground in a world without Rage. If the set was balanced to not have these peaks and valleys, it would feel way more "super" than it ever has before.

[nyttyn]

Just leave Rage in as-is for legacy reasons for now and try another stab at the crash changes later, put Unleashed Might in live because it's perfectly fine, and down the road maybe give Scrappers and Stalkers Super Strength with only Unleashed Might. This is a really easy win, a lot of people want it! Which is remarkable because Super Strength is one of those hot stoves that's so hard to get people to agree on, just take the W please! 

 

Having to constantly hit Rage is the most annoying part of my Super Strength character on live and it going away would be amazing. 

[OverkillEngine]

I liked UM and was looking forward to it on my Brute because it "solved/improved/sidestepped" several issues with the SS set design:

* The Rage crash is the opposite of fun.
* The Rage crash has mechanical fairness issues.
* The base damage on SS powers being artificially low due to the assumption of Rage causes design and balance issues with other sets and pools.


The issues prompting negative feedback can be boiled own to: Rage still existed in the above state and the core issues with it intertwined with the SS set were not actually fixed. So of course no one is going to accept any negative adjustment to it if they have any intent to still use it, because nothing about what was wrong with it actually got fixed.

The set just need an in-depth rework to fix this. The attacks need to be worthy of taking, slotting normally, and using, even without Rage or UM (which are just BU analogues/variants) even when compared to pool attacks, regardless of which AT one is using the set on. Because if not we get the current situation all over again. And then a version of Rage needs to be on offer that isn't balanced using a crash.

Yes, this may require taking a poodle scoot on the Cottage Rule. That's what happens when the Cottage isn't up to code and wasn't even built to code to begin with. You've gotta do some demo work and rebuilding.

Edited Saturday at 06:16 AM by OverkillEngine

[lemming]

I think there are definitely some people that liked Unleashed Might and just stayed out of the Rage argument because we preferred a non-crash toggle.

Been putting off a respec on my regen/ss tanker since I figured it would be better to incorporate UM, instead of redoing it now and then doing it again. bleh.