An Update from The Homecoming Team

[Black Zot]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

I disagree here. The most likely outcome based on how we've seen other rights holders act in the past is the other public servers are going to eventually be hit with C&D, regardless of how the negotiations with the HC team play out. It'll just be easier for NCSoft to watch and manage if there is only one authorized group, and any backlash will be far outweighed by the positive PR from the game coming back.

 

But I could very well be wrong here, and NCSoft may not care as much as the typical corporate rights holder.

 

Unlikely.  Korean corporate culture would rather see an IP die than see anyone but themselves benefit from it.  It makes the company look bad if someone else takes your stuff and makes it work where you couldn't.

 

And you don't keep a job at ANY company, from ANY country, by making your employer look bad.

[TonyV]

13 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

I totally understand your PoV, I simply have a different one, as stated.

That's totally fine, and I acknowledge and respect that. You're not yelling for my head on a platter like some people are, and as far as I know you're not spreading a bunch of misinformation, so seriously, we're good. 🙂

 

All the community has heard for years and years is 'we are in talks, it feels good', that's all we have been given now, nothing more, just the vague feelings about the deal.

All I can say to that is that I really do understand that frustration, but I promise you, I was never directly involved in previous talks.

 

In the interest of completeness, to my knowledge, there were three groups that I know of that worked on "talks" in the past. The first was Paragon Studios itself, which obviously didn't work out, and I don't think that much of anything was ever publicly revealed about their discussions. The second was a group who approached a bunch of studios to try to acquire the CoH IP and take over the game. To my knowledge, that didn't go anywhere, but I wasn't directly involved in those talks, and I don't think that crew ever dealt directly with NCSOFT, only third party studios.

 

The third, and probably most well-known thanks mostly (and unfortunately) due to some drama around it, was a group (informally referred to as "Task Force Hail Mary") who approached NCSOFT about running the game as some sort of extension of City of Titans. This is where there has been a lot of confusion because of two main reasons:

• People keep getting the Titan Network and City of Titans mixed up. I'm the owner and one of the admins of the Titan Network. We run the Paragon Wiki, City Info Terminal, a few other CoH-related sites, and Paragon Chat. We are not affiliated with City of Titans, the successor project that ran the Kickstarter campaign, other than talking about it on our forums. The Titan Network never received one cent of that money, because it wasn't our fundraiser. When they named their project, I thought it was kind of a cool homage to the Titan Network, which became a community hub after the game's shutdown. In hindsight, I kinda wish that they had named their project something else because of the confusion it's creating now. Oh well. (And for the record, I'm not disparaging them; I still hope they're wildly successful with their project.)
• Most of the discussion that happened around the Task Force Hail Mary talks took place on the Titan Network forums, because as I mentioned above, we were kind of the de facto community hub for such conversations. I posted some of the updates myself because I knew and talked to the City of Titans people, but (and this is the important part) I was not involved in those talks directly. Everything I was posting was secondhand information, and I tried to be as clear and explicit regarding the fact as I could. When the team involved in those talks announced who they were, I let them handle communications about it from there. Nevertheless, because I was posting information passed on to me, some people are still under the impression that I was involved in those talks. I absolutely, emphatically had nothing to do with them.

 

All we have gotten is flowery words in the past, that's all we have now, yet we are somehow supposed to think 'this time is different' with absolutely no data...

I mean, you have to admit that circumstances are significantly different now than they've been for the past seven years, right? I get why you may question what bearing that might have on any potential talks going on, but it's not like this just came out of the blue, in absence of anything else happening in the community. I don't want to go connecting dots that aren't necessarily connected, but a lot has changed between early April and now.

 

What HC has not provided is any reason this round of talks is, in any way, different from previous rounds, that makes this one 'better'.

Plan, people, nothing...just 'trust us' because we can prop up some servers...

I think it's important to acknowledge that no one at HC, including myself, is demanding anything of anyone. I mean, HC asks for donations to keep the hardware running, but nothing going on is contingent on that even. It's not like we're asking you to actually do anything because of this announcement. It really is just for informational purposes, it's keeping people in the loop that stuff is happening to (hopefully) turn Homecoming into somewhere where people can have confidence that the lights won't go off tomorrow. We can't promise that yet, but that's the end goal here. I guess what I'm getting at is that yes, we'd like you to trust us, but not because we can prop up some servers. It's more like trust us because... well, just because. And if you don't want to yet, that's cool, too. If you don't feel like our reputations justify that kind of faith, then hopefully we'll be able to provide some concrete evidence to justify it soon. If you want to wait until that point, that's fine, and I don't take it personally.

 

But I'm also a bit confused as to what exactly you want to know that we haven't told you.

• The plan: To get City of Heroes running in a legal manner under an agreement that allows HC to continue operating minus the threat of being shut down. Yes, there are still details in flux, but that's the big gist of it.
• The people: GM Jimmy, Cipher, me, and various representatives at NCSOFT.

There's really nothing much past that that's earth-shattering to know other than a time frame when all of this will be done. We don't have a firm one yet, and I really don't want to speculate about it because that way leads to madness. If you want to know details about our organizational structure, exactly what rights we'll have, what NCSOFT's role will be in all of this, etc., that's what I keep referring to as the minutiae that we're working out that, again, I don't want to talk about because until we have something on paper, it's subject to change. The important thing is, though, is that first bullet point above. Everything we're doing is in support of that goal.

 

I know you all want me to just shut up, so I will.

If I'd wanted you to shut up, the last thing I would have done is reply to your post. You make good points and ask good questions, ones that are well-thought-out and that I think are reflective of the community's understandable fears and skepticism as a whole, which is why I chose it to reply to.

 

Seriously, the only thing that gets me in a "shut up" kind of mood is when I see people spreading gross misinformation about me, the Titan Network, the Homecoming crew, or events that never happened. And even that's not because of any kind of ego issue, it's because it's damaging to the community and what we're trying to accomplish here.

[TonyV]

13 hours ago, CR Tempest said:

Something something people want the D.

Good god, why didn't I extend my list of hypotheticals one more letter to E? I suppose then it would be a drug reference. Are there any safe letters?

 

This is why I need a personal PR person.

[Widower]

3 hours ago, TonyV said:

Good god, why didn't I extend my list of hypotheticals one more letter to E? I suppose then it would be a drug reference. Are there any safe letters?

 

This is why I need a personal PR person.

Ooh, I volunteer.

 

As my application, I will note that you are actually incorrect. Task Force Hail Mary originally referred to attempt #2, as evinced by the oldest contents of the eponymous board on your forums. The downix attempt just happened to end up there.

[Skyhawke]

6 hours ago, TonyV said:

Good god, why didn't I extend my list of hypotheticals one more letter to E? I suppose then it would be a drug reference. Are there any safe letters?

 

This is why I need a personal PR person.

[Korbian]

8 hours ago, TonyV said:

Good god, why didn't I extend my list of hypotheticals one more letter to E? I suppose then it would be a drug reference. Are there any safe letters?

 

This is why I need a personal PR person.

I dunno Tony, I think a good running joke is just what this thread needs to lighten the mood.  Admittedly, I also want the D, but we won't embarrass Tahq. 😝

 

And I know most of you here don't know me from Eve, but I have been lurking about Titan Network Forums since long before the shutdown.  I have watched all these events conspire over the past 7 years, I have had my hopes dashed right along with the rest of you.  But Titan Network has put more heart and soul into this community than any other (public) entity since shutdown, and if there is anyone I trust to do right by us to the best of his ability, it's TonyV.

[undercoverdude]

Thank you for the amazing fun !

[Abraxus]

...and so, I remain firmly in my "good place", having never really left it. 😎

[jubakumbi]

9 hours ago, TonyV said:

But I'm also a bit confused as to what exactly you want to know that we haven't told you.

• The plan: To get City of Heroes running in a legal manner under an agreement that allows HC to continue operating minus the threat of being shut down. Yes, there are still details in flux, but that's the big gist of it.
• The people: GM Jimmy, Cipher, me, and various representatives at NCSOFT.

There's really nothing much past that that's earth-shattering to know other than a time frame when all of this will be done. We don't have a firm one yet, and I really don't want to speculate about it because that way leads to madness. If you want to know details about our organizational structure, exactly what rights we'll have, what NCSOFT's role will be in all of this, etc., that's what I keep referring to as the minutiae that we're working out that, again, I don't want to talk about because until we have something on paper, it's subject to change. The important thing is, though, is that first bullet point above. Everything we're doing is in support of that goal.

 

Close.

 

All I have been asking for this whole time is something, anything, that indicates this round has something, anything, going for it that was not there before.

It seems, the existences on the servers is 'it' in most peoples eyes.

If so, just say that.

If in fact, the only single difference in the situation is the fact the code is out and there are server running, just say, that's our only leverage.

 

I would love to hear, even in the most vague of terms, about any biz deal the HC team on this have previously negotiated.

That's all. Something. Anything.

Just some tiny indication the people involved know how to successfully negotitate a business deal between entities.

Nothing more.

Just a 'This person has been a business leader for three companies and had close some/lots/many deals between companies/corporations."

 

Some indication that the individuals with whom a ton of good will and hope has been trusted, that they do, in fact, have the skills required to properly handle the task.

 

It's the most basic question asked when conducting a business deal besides 'can both sides afford it'.

IME, when no one can or will answer this basic question, the deal is not going to work out...

 

I am not interested in the posts trying to tell me and others to 'calm down' or 'be positive'.

It has nothing to to with that.

 

This is a fundamental biz question that any typical group of biz people IME can readily answer and does so eagerly to showcase thier skills...

 

[PaxArcana]

42 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

All I have been asking for this whole time is something, anything, that indicates this round has something, anything, going for it that was not there before.

... the simple fact that NCSoft is at the table, negotiating at all, and not immediately sending out Cease-and-Desist letters to the Homecoming team or other, smaller server operators (not to mention DMCA Takedown Notices to the hosting services involved) is a huge thing.  It means, they are not 100% die-hard set on "nuke 'em all from orbit" as a solution.

 

It means that are at least willing to think about letting the servers continue to exist, in some way or other.

47 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

I would love to hear, even in the most vague of terms, about any biz deal the HC team on this have previously negotiated.

Totally unnecessary.

 

Because, remember, every great negotiator was, at some time, as green as new grass.  Every great business leader was, at some time, a raw newbie.  No exceptions.

 

And even if everything falls apart, if the negotiatiosn tank and NCSoft does go with "the nuclear option" on the servers.  What, really, would you be out?  What would you not have, that you did have a year ago, or 18 months ago?

 

Nothing, that's what.  Not a damned thing.

[jubakumbi]

3 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

... the simple fact that NCSoft is at the table, negotiating at all, and not immediately sending out Cease-and-Desist letters to the Homecoming team or other, smaller server operators (not to mention DMCA Takedown Notices to the hosting services involved) is a huge thing.  It means, they are not 100% die-hard set on "nuke 'em all from orbit" as a solution.

 

It means that are at least willing to think about letting the servers continue to exist, in some way or other.

Totally unnecessary.

 

Because, remember, every great negotiator was, at some time, as green as new grass.  Every great business leader was, at some time, a raw newbie.  No exceptions.

 

And even if everything falls apart, if the negotiatiosn tank and NCSoft does go with "the nuclear option" on the servers.  What, really, would you be out?  What would you not have, that you did have a year ago, or 18 months ago?

 

Nothing, that's what.  Not a damned thing.

Wow, I thought we were not discussing this,

Thanks for dismissing me, again. 🙂

Why you have all this hostility for me over simply wanting to know more relevent data is absurd at this point, IMO.

I am married, happily for 25 years, in case you are being mean to me to get me to 'notice' you, just FYI.

 

The fact you and others are fine with not knowing this data is irrelevent.

The fact that so many people prefer 'faith' over facts, is irrelevent.

 

Like others, I ask for data.

The data I ask for is, in fact, typical business information, used daily in business transactions and given freely by any group that values transparency, IME.

 

So, while you may be very confortable to 'just trust' a group of people you don't know, who skillsets are unknown, with the fate of a game that so many people love, some of us might, in fact, want to understand what skills they have, so we can possibly provide support to them during the negotiations!

 

Is it really so hard to understand, perhaps the whole reason I am asking the question, is so that perhaps, with the pool of people and resources I might have at hand, I could provide some help to the team during the negotiations, in some way, because I do this for a living?

 

The HC group has been happy to provide comfort and words to the emotional gamers.

Is it really so hard to understand some of us simply prefer data over 'trust us' and they we also would like to hear the words that comfort us?

 

But, you know, go right ahead and yell at me for asking questions, it is what you do, right?

[Jimmy]

35 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

The data I ask for is, in fact, typical business information, used daily in business transactions and given freely by any group that values transparency, IME.

The key thing you're missing is that nothing about this situation or negotiation is typical.

 

The specific reason we aren't answering that question is because almost the entire Homecoming team is using aliases in order to protect identities, so of course we aren't going to tell you what we've worked on previously 🙂

[_NOPE_]

1 minute ago, Jimmy said:

The key thing you're missing is that nothing about this situation or negotiation is typical.

 

The specific reason we aren't answering that question is that almost the entire Homecoming team is using aliases in order to protect identities, so of course we aren't going to tell you what we've worked on previously 🙂

Hmmm.... let me see if I can figure it out...

 

Jimmy... Jimmy.... James.... Aliases... aliases... identities... protect... invisible..... RABBIT! I've got it! You're secretly James Stewart, alive after all these years, and the rest of the HC team are your pookas!

[Korbian]

*Law and Order sound*

Names have been changed to protect the innocent.

[Bionic_Flea]

2 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

Hmmm.... let me see if I can figure it out...

 

Jimmy... Jimmy.... James.... Aliases... aliases... identities... protect... invisible..... RABBIT! I've got it! You're secretly James Stewart, alive after all these years, and the rest of the HC team are your pookas!

I can tell you with some authority that Jimmy is definitely NOT Ryan Reynolds.

[_NOPE_]

Just now, Bionic_Flea said:

I can tell you with some authority that Jimmy is definitely NOT Ryan Reynolds.

Why... because YOU are?! Hah! I've found you Ryan Reynolds! My evil plan has worked to reveal your secret anonymous alias at last!

[PaxArcana]

46 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Thanks for dismissing me, again.

I haven't "dismissed" you.

 

I've sought to debunk your claims about certain concerns as being nearly as critically important as you've presenting them to be.

 

The two are not the same.

48 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Is it really so hard to understand, perhaps the whole reason I am asking the question, is so that perhaps, with the pool of people and resources I might have at hand, I could provide some help to the team during the negotiations, in some way, because I do this for a living?

Yes, it is.

 

Because if you really and truly had that kind of experience, expertise, and resource base ... you wouldn't be approaching the matter in anything remotely like the way you have been.  Instead, you would have contacted the known principals directly, enumerated those skills and assets, and offered to apply some or all of them to the process of negotiating with NCSoft.

IOW: if you were hoping to offer your assistance as a party to said negotiations, you would have done that - and not repeatedly insist that you be given information despite lacking any particular right to have it.  Neither you nor I are investors, or even "customers", here.  If you wanted to help, you should have lead with that, not insisting that you are "owed" some particular kind and amount of information.

None of us are owed anything.  Being able to play on th eHC servers is a gift ... and the horse might be getting tired of people holding popsicle sticks and reciting "Now say AAH".

[jubakumbi]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

The key thing you're missing is that nothing about this situation or negotiation is typical.

 

The specific reason we aren't answering that question is because almost the entire Homecoming team is using aliases in order to protect identities, so of course we aren't going to tell you what we've worked on previously 🙂

Again, I specifically did not ask for specifics.

 

"This person hasd worked at three companies and brokered manyfew/lots of deals, for various business entities."

We don't even know if the people involved have ever even had jobs, or are independently wealthy from great investments.

 

No where, BTW, not once, have I stated that I or anyone is owed anything.

I have asked questions.

Probing, real life questions about tthe real world skills that the HC team may or may not have, and been attacked frm the start for having the audacity to aks them.

 

But @PaxArcana, by all means, please, please continue to villify me for having the audacity to ask public questions of a company that claims to want transparency during a volitile issue, so everyone can hear the answers, because you don't like my process of data gathering...it's really filling up an otherwise boring week...all this angst over a basic business inquiry, and people wonder why someone might not have much confidence in thier business prowess.

 

I totaly agree they need a PR position to be filled by someone qualified.

 

At this point, the whole thing has become hilarious to me, I have been sharing the story widely with my peers.

 

"Hey, can you guys give us a hint that you know how to close business deals?"

"Go screw yourself, you are not entitled to know that!"

 

Yeah.

 

🖖

Edited August 22, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling

[PaxArcana]

Just to be clear: you do realize I am not, nor never have been, part of the homecoming development team, nor even a volunteer in any capacity with them .... right?

[jubakumbi]

3 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Just to be clear: you do realize I am not, nor never have been, part of the homecoming development team, nor even a volunteer in any capacity with them .... right?

Thankfully so.

It has not stopped you from making me the bad guy though.

🙂

If it brings you dopamine, by all menas, carry on!

[PaxArcana]

1 minute ago, jubakumbi said:

It has not stopped you from making me the bad guy though.

Just because I disagree with you - even strongly - does not mean I'm "making you the bad guy".  It just means, I disagree with you.

 

To be plain: I think you are making mountains out of molehills.  Be calm.  Be zen.  Your blood pressure may thank you for it.

 

What will be, will be.  The who and how of the negotiations aren't worth worrying about - and this, coming from a guy with an actual, diagnosed nonspecific anxiety disorder.  (Meaning, I tend to worry the hell out of anything, at the drop of a hat.)  If I can be zen about the future of HC, literally anyone can.  Trust me on that.

[MunkiLord]

8 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

If I can be zen about the future of HC, literally anyone can.  Trust me on that.

How well or poorly one person handles anxiety/worry/stress/etc is in no way relevant to how another person does or can. 

 

I have no opinion on the argument at hand, but I feel I should point this out because it is important. 

[_NOPE_]

[Korbian]

Don't encourage them, PK. 😛

[PaxArcana]

35 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

How well or poorly one person handles anxiety/worry/stress/etc is in no way relevant to how another person does or can. 

 

I have no opinion on the argument at hand, but I feel I should point this out because it is important. 

I know that very, very, very well.  Like I said, i have an anxiety disorder.  A bad one.  Nearly crippling.  (Which is probably a large part of my attraction to the superhero genre, come to think of it.)

My point was that I handle stress and anxiety about as badly as is humanly possible, without being permanently institutionalized.  And yet, here I am ... feeling very zen about the future of HC.  What will be will be, and I cannot change that outcome.  Normally I'd be beside myself, an absolute wreck, at that thought.  :shrug:

So yes, if I can manage it ... then nearly anyone who isn't permanently institutionalized, should be able to as well.  🙂

Edited August 22, 2019 by PaxArcana