Are Blaster attack damage procs worth it?

[Bopper]

On 8/20/2019 at 9:01 AM, TheAdjustor said:

The likely reason is that the pseudo pet tick rate of 3/sec is what is being used for the calculation of the proc rate not the 90sec recharge time.

Pseudopets are certainly disappointing in that regard. I should correct you on one thing though, the ActivatePeriod used is from the Proc enhancement itself, not the power. So 10 seconds is used for the Proc probability calculation.

[Haijinx]

The problem with building for resist is blasters lack status protection.  

 

Though i suppose you could do a /martial with the sorcery pool.  

 

Or play a Sent. 

 

 

Defense offers status avoidance at least. 

[TheAdjustor]

3 hours ago, Obitus said:

(It should also go without saying that soloing large crowds as fast as possible isn't the only valid approach to high-end gameplay or a high-end build.  Someone who focuses more on, say, single-target damage isn't playing a joke build just because it may not farm as fast as your Blaster, which is built around Drain Psyche and PBAoE damage - and as far as I can tell, little else.   In any case, the joke's on you if you think that even a highly optimized /Mental Blaster farms noticeably faster than a farming build with robust anti-scatter mechanics, like Brute taunt auras.  Yes, you have more burst AoE damage; no, that burst AoE damage isn't enough to drop +3 or +4 bosses in one or two rotations, not even close.  I spent a lot of time messing around with farms on a Fire/Mental back on the live servers; billions of INF spent, and the inescapable conclusion was that there's a reason farmers favor Brutes or even Controllers over Blasters. A Blaster can work, but it's sub-optimal.)

 

 

This. I farmed an enormous amount on my arch/ment on live, the only reason it was viable back then was that purple recipes were commanding prices in the low hundreds of millions to mid hundreds of millions.  Before the end I recall Apocalypse pieces going for around 600 million.  The fact that those recipe drops overwhelmed everything else  you could gain by farming made blaster farming at -1x8 with no bosses a very good use of time in the game.  As a blaster could kill a spawn as fast as their self buffs and nuke recharged, and a minion had as much chance to drop a purple as a boss.  Even so you would want to select the enemies for no mezz battle maiden warriors and freaks before they got the super stunners were good examples.  It took a very expensive build to get into that game and a lot of use to make it pay off, you were still likely faster with a proper fire/kin controller to get the job done.  Once AE hit though there was just no comparison. You could build a cheap (mostly SOs) Fire tank and pop him in the middle of an ambush farm and just laugh and laugh.

[TheAdjustor]

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

Pseudopets are certainly disappointing in that regard. I should correct you on one thing though, the ActivatePeriod used is from the Proc enhancement itself, not the power. So 10 seconds is used for the Proc probability calculation.

That's interesting, I have to double check against the Area Factor, but when I was testing on test, rain of arrows and glue arrow were lucky to get 1 proc against 10 or so mobs.

[Bopper]

46 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

That's interesting, I have to double check against the Area Factor, but when I was testing on test, rain of arrows and glue arrow were lucky to get 1 proc against 10 or so mobs.

Both have a 25 foot radius, so for a 3.5 PPM proc, the probability to proc on each tick (every 10 seconds) would be 15.3%. I don't know how long the duration of the pseudopet is, so if it's less than 10 seconds, then you probably only have the one opportunity to Proc.

[HelenCarnate]

6 hours ago, TheAdjustor said:

That's interesting, I have to double check against the Area Factor, but when I was testing on test, rain of arrows and glue arrow were lucky to get 1 proc against 10 or so mobs.

Vs 6 mobs from combat log on test.  This is only 1 shot, not multiple and leaving out all the tics for the sake of space.  2 Damage procs with smashing and energy damage.  Not sure why the Impeded swiftness proc doesn't list the target but here is what came up.

 

Your target takes 157.84 points of bonus smashing damage!

 Sticky Arrow: Your target takes 157.84 points of bonus smashing damage!

 Sticky Arrow: You blast Champion Swiper for 205.2 points of bonus energy damage!

 Sticky Arrow: You blast Juicer Freak for 205.2 points of bonus energy damage!

 Sticky Arrow: Your target takes 157.84 points of bonus smashing damage!

 Sticky Arrow: Your target takes 157.84 points of bonus smashing damage!

 Sticky Arrow: Your target takes 157.84 points of bonus smashing damage!

 Sticky Arrow: You blast Champion Smasher for 205.2 points of bonus energy damage!

 

 

 

Rain of arrows vs a large spawn of freaks (13).  Only room for 1 damage proc but threw in KD for fun.  Actually I could have put in the ATO in there but forgot until after the test.

 Rain of Arrows: You blast Metal Smasher for 214.52 points of bonus energy damage!

 Rain of Arrows: You blast Juicer Freak for 214.52 points of bonus energy damage!

  Rain of Arrows: You knock Juicer Freak off their feet with your Ragnarok: Chance for Knockdown!

 Rain of Arrows: You blast Stunner Freak for 214.52 points of bonus energy damage!

 Rain of Arrows: You knock Juicer Freak off their feet with your Ragnarok: Chance for Knockdown!

 Rain of Arrows: You knock Stunner Freak off their feet with your Ragnarok: Chance for Knockdown!

 Rain of Arrows: You knock Metal Swiper off their feet with your Ragnarok: Chance for Knockdown!

 

Now they do not proc as often as the same procs in say Explosive Arrow but they proc a lot more often than 1 time vs 10 mobs.  

 

[Bopper]

53 minutes ago, HelenCarnate said:

Vs 6 mobs from combat log on test.  This is only 1 shot, not multiple and leaving out all the tics for the sake of space.  2 Damage procs with smashing and energy damage.  Not sure why the Impeded swiftness proc doesn't list the target but here is what came up.

 

Your target takes 157.84 points of bonus smashing damage!

 Sticky Arrow: Your target takes 157.84 points of bonus smashing damage!

 Sticky Arrow: You blast Champion Swiper for 205.2 points of bonus energy damage!

 Sticky Arrow: You blast Juicer Freak for 205.2 points of bonus energy damage!

 Sticky Arrow: Your target takes 157.84 points of bonus smashing damage!

 Sticky Arrow: Your target takes 157.84 points of bonus smashing damage!

 Sticky Arrow: Your target takes 157.84 points of bonus smashing damage!

 Sticky Arrow: You blast Champion Smasher for 205.2 points of bonus energy damage!

 

 

 

Rain of arrows vs a large spawn of freaks (13).  Only room for 1 damage proc but threw in KD for fun.  Actually I could have put in the ATO in there but forgot until after the test.

 Rain of Arrows: You blast Metal Smasher for 214.52 points of bonus energy damage!

 Rain of Arrows: You blast Juicer Freak for 214.52 points of bonus energy damage!

  Rain of Arrows: You knock Juicer Freak off their feet with your Ragnarok: Chance for Knockdown!

 Rain of Arrows: You blast Stunner Freak for 214.52 points of bonus energy damage!

 Rain of Arrows: You knock Juicer Freak off their feet with your Ragnarok: Chance for Knockdown!

 Rain of Arrows: You knock Stunner Freak off their feet with your Ragnarok: Chance for Knockdown!

 Rain of Arrows: You knock Metal Swiper off their feet with your Ragnarok: Chance for Knockdown!

 

Now they do not proc as often as the same procs in say Explosive Arrow but they proc a lot more often than 1 time vs 10 mobs.  

 

How much recharge was slotted in the powers and of the 13 freaks you attacked, how many were actually hit? The number of procs on Glue Arrow has me thinking...

[HelenCarnate]

No recharge slotted, only global.  This  can be done while still using 5 slots of Positrons Blast as only 1 of those has recharge and instead of that IO use Impeded Swiftness Proc.  All the mobs in the Rain of Arrows AoE were hit at least once as the only ones left standing were damaged but I did not bother to look at the to hit logs to see if there were any misses.

Edited August 22, 2019 by HelenCarnate

[Bopper]

Just now, HelenCarnate said:

No recharge slotted, only global.  This  can be done while still using 5 slots of Positrons Blast as only 1 of those has recharge and instead of that IO use Impeded Swiftness Proc

I personally haven't played the set and I haven't tested it, so do you know if that is typical proc performance for Glue Arrow? It sounded like TheAdjustor''s account was rarely getting procs (although I don't know his recharge), however you got 8 out of 12 opportunities to Proc. I'm trying to determine which powers that summon pets use ActivatePeriod and which ones use Recharge Time. Your tests could be very helpful in determining that.

[HelenCarnate]

22 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I personally haven't played the set and I haven't tested it, so do you know if that is typical proc performance for Glue Arrow? It sounded like TheAdjustor''s account was rarely getting procs (although I don't know his recharge), however you got 8 out of 12 opportunities to Proc. I'm trying to determine which powers that summon pets use ActivatePeriod and which ones use Recharge Time. Your tests could be very helpful in determining that.

Yes, I hit several groups just to make sure I didn't just get super lucky.  Sometimes it proced a little more often, sometimes a little less.  I think the issue may be that the numbers are hard to see in large groups and people also forget that it is pet damage and they forget to include that in combat log as it is not normally on by default.  With Glue Arrow, it will show the proc on the initial hit, but because all the other damage is done by pets. Those procs do not show in the combat log unless you include pet damage.  With Rain of Arrows, all the damage is pet damage so those procs will never show unless you include pet damage.

 

Edit to add

Oh and if you manage to get enough global recharge for perma hasten that can get Glue Arrow recharging in around 15 seconds.

 

And also add.

Also there are not 12 opportunities to proc.  Since the power lasts for 30 seconds that is 36 (2 procs, x 6 targets x 1 chance every 10 seconds).  Some of those were from the middle and end of the list of damage ticks.

Edited August 22, 2019 by HelenCarnate

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, HelenCarnate said:

Yes, I hit several groups just to make sure I didn't just get super lucky.  Sometimes it proced a little more often, sometimes a little less

You have inspired my next test. I think I picked up a pattern that should be easy enough to determine, which will hopefully clarify how to calculate the different powers that summon pets. So thank you.

[HelenCarnate]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

You have inspired my next test. I think I picked up a pattern that should be easy enough to determine, which will hopefully clarify how to calculate the different powers that summon pets. So thank you.

Just leave pet damage off and leave on only your damage remove all the other clutter like to hit rolls and rewards.  Then change the chat tab on the bottom window to only shows pet damage.  Fire an attack and you can figure it out by which window the damage shows up.

[Bopper]

Just now, HelenCarnate said:

Just leave pet damage off and leave on only your damage remove all the other clutter like to hit rolls and rewards.  Then change the chat tab on the bottom window to only shows pet damage.  Fire an attack and you can figure it out by which window the damage shows up.

Certainly. I have to do that every time I make a new character on Beta. I wish chat tabs could be saved, but oh well. It only takes a few seconds to make a new tab.

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

Certainly. I have to do that every time I make a new character on Beta. I wish chat tabs could be saved, but oh well. It only takes a few seconds to make a new tab.

Can't they? There is a chat saving option in the Windows option.

 

Slotting procs into glue attacks and stuff is just hmmm for me. I mean, perhaps as a filler. But as rule if I'm AoEing something I'm throwing damage AoEs, not CCs. Controllers, sure, it is their job to throw CC and the ones playing controllers relish it.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Sovera

[TheAdjustor]

This is profoundly odd I just logged on to test to double check to see if I had screwed up my testing or the patch from between when I tested and the most recent post had changed anything

 

You launch a Rain of Arrows!
Rain of Arrows: HIT Test Dummy! Your RainofArrows power had a 90.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 4.28.
Rain of Arrows: HIT Test Dummy! Your RainofArrows power had a 90.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 36.21.
Rain of Arrows: HIT Test Dummy! Your RainofArrows power was forced to hit by streakbreaker.
Rain of Arrows: HIT Test Dummy! Your RainofArrows power had a 90.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 60.74.
Rain of Arrows: HIT Test Dummy! Your RainofArrows power had a 90.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 65.24.
Rain of Arrows: HIT Test Dummy! Your RainofArrows power was forced to hit by streakbreaker.
Rain of Arrows: HIT Test Dummy! Your RainofArrows power was forced to hit by streakbreaker.
Rain of Arrows: HIT Test Dummy! Your RainofArrows power had a 90.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 79.26.
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 75.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 90.10.
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 90.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 94.10.
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 90.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 99.11.
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 90.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 90.65.
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: You hit Test Dummy for 92.48 points of lethal damage!
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 75.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 81.59.
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 75.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 88.89.
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 75.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 92.22.
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 75.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 91.08.
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 90.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 90.84.
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 75.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 83.79.
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 75.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 93.39.
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 75.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 82.83.
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 75.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 98.19.
Rain of Arrows: MISSED Test Dummy!! Your RainofArrows power had a 75.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 95.09.
Rain of Arrows is recharged.

Test Dummy is the name of my test mob, it's a boss with no attacks no defenses and no resistances. Easy enough to create in the AE and provides a nice baseline for testing.

 

Rain of arrows had no enhancements except the Positron's chance of energy damage and there were 11 mobs in the group I shot.

 

I repeated the test three times and had exactly one proc

Rain of Arrows: You blast Test Dummy for 71.74 points of bonus energy damage!

 

Something is amiss here. Also for some reason the to hit chance of Rain of Arrows is fluctuating between 90% and 75%, why that is happening is baffling.

Edited August 22, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[HelenCarnate]

That is odd with 14 misses vs 11 mobs.  No idea what the issue there is.  Rain of arrows seems to not proc as often but I am normally seeing at least 1 proc pretty regularly but missing that often will certainly throw off the results.  That one I would only recommend a proc if you need it for a 6th slot set bonus.  Glue Arrow on the other hand seems to proc far more often.  Even the initial first damage ticks seem to hit more often with the same group but still not as often as a normal AoE attack.  Also stuff will likely be dead fast enough with usual attack chains to not allow the full time to get the maximum number of procs. 

[Bopper]

4 hours ago, TheAdjustor said:

Test Dummy is the name of my test mob, it's a boss with no attacks no defenses and no resistances. Easy enough to create in the AE and provides a nice baseline for testing.

 

Rain of arrows had no enhancements except the Positron's chance of energy damage and there were 11 mobs in the group I shot.

 

I repeated the test three times and had exactly one proc

Rain of Arrows: You blast Test Dummy for 71.74 points of bonus energy damage!

Have you tried testing outside of AE? Try Rikti Monkey Island in PI perhaps.

 

Also, I might be (probably am) wrong about saying Glue Arrow has a 25 foot radius. The Trick Arrow version does, but Tactical Arrow version might use a 15 foot radius. 

[TheAdjustor]

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

Have you tried testing outside of AE? Try Rikti Monkey Island in PI perhaps.

 

Also, I might be (probably am) wrong about saying Glue Arrow has a 25 foot radius. The Trick Arrow version does, but Tactical Arrow version might use a 15 foot radius. 

 

Did further testing in the AE and managed to deduce the problem

 

 

It's a couple of bugs in rain of arrows. The chance to hit turns out ROA just doesn't get Archery's inherent accuracy of 1.15. The fluctuating accuracy is from the fact Eagle Eye is on a .75 second tick and apparently the pseudo pet has it expire oddly.  The same thing happens for tactics.

[Bopper]

A follow up to the Glue Arrow discussion, I tested the defender version (posted results in PPM Guide) and can confirm the initial cast acts as a single target attack, followed by a summoning of the glue patch that offers 3 ticks of proc opportunities using the ActivatePeriod formula. The defender Glue Arrow uses a 25 foot radius, but I believe the blaster version is 15, so its glue patch should have a higher probability to proc. Also, since the glue patch doesn't use recharge and the cast has such a long base, feel free to slot recharge. It should still maintain same performance (max on cast).

[TheAdjustor]

7 hours ago, Bopper said:

A follow up to the Glue Arrow discussion, I tested the defender version (posted results in PPM Guide) and can confirm the initial cast acts as a single target attack, followed by a summoning of the glue patch that offers 3 ticks of proc opportunities using the ActivatePeriod formula. The defender Glue Arrow uses a 25 foot radius, but I believe the blaster version is 15, so its glue patch should have a higher probability to proc. Also, since the glue patch doesn't use recharge and the cast has such a long base, feel free to slot recharge. It should still maintain same performance (max on cast).

The blaster is in some way different. I just tested Glue arrow with 1 acc and a Positron's Blast Chance of Energy Damage  against 16 targets the highest number of hits was 4 on the first hit and least was 0. I'd have to slice and dice the combat log for a better estimate but it looks like 10% chance.

 

Just a few notes

 Power Type:Click Target Type:Enemies Power Range:60.00 ft. Effect Area:Single Target Attack Types:AoE

There is the description of the blaster glue arrow also the blaster version seems to have a 10 target cap. need to test more to verify that.

Edited August 28, 2019 by TheAdjustor
added information

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

against 16 targets

How are you controlling the test? If glue Arrow for blaster is only 15 foot radius, it could be difficult to hit all 16. When Justin server is back to a true test server, I can look at the blaster version. It's quite possible it's meched very differently.

[TheAdjustor]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

How are you controlling the test? If glue Arrow for blaster is only 15 foot radius, it could be difficult to hit all 16. When Justin server is back to a true test server, I can look at the blaster version. It's quite possible it's meched very differently.

Oh I have a custom boss in AE that has no defenses or attacks just boss HP.  I just aggro a couple of groups onto me and then move away leaving me with an aggro limit worth of mobs around me and then fire it at the closest.

Edited August 28, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[natewest1987]

On 8/16/2019 at 11:56 AM, MunkiLord said:

What are the chances of all those procs firing though? Will it average out to be more or less damage?

And hitting for full damage. 

 

On 8/16/2019 at 2:34 AM, TheAdjustor said:

Well taking an example from Archery

Ranged Shot,  3 level 50 damage IOs :  272 damage,  (12 second base recharge time)

Ranged Shot  2 level 50 damage IOs and Gladiators Javelin Chance of Toxic,  Apocalypse Chance of Negative,  Sting of the Manticore Chance of Toxic,  Blaster's Wrath Chance of fire:  610 damage

 

272 or 610 is it significant ?

 

Or another one from  Ice Blast Freeze Ray VS the old king of Ice Blast, Bitter Ice Blast

Bitter Ice Blast: with 3 Damage IOs : 283 damage 215 DPA

Freeze Ray: 5 procs 1 Acc/Dam  approximately 600 damage and 500 DPA

 

 

Is it worth it ? To me it certainly seems not only worth it but so important as too completely overturn how you play the character.

 

 

I mean... this all kind of depends on what proc options exist per given spell and whether or not you want to load all your good ones in a specific power or if you want to spread them out.  Also, atleast on the first example you’re using two unique procs.  So it’s not really fair to say that across the board procs are fundamentally worthwhile.  If you go about having to put more commonly resisted proc options in powers then your mileage is gonna vary a lot vs someone who slots toxic / energy / fire.  For one, you can only get away with sticking that extra ranged toxic in there because of the sniper set compatibility.  That doesn’t transfer to most abilities and

[Sovera]

Yes, listen, if you want to test the worth of it just roll a character on justin and test it with and without procs against a pylon. Gut feelings aren't very accurate.  On my Sentinel the triple proc version downed a pylon in 4 minutes. The same build but replacing the procs for a normal slotting did it in six minutes.

[TheAdjustor]

10 hours ago, natewest1987 said:

And hitting for full damage. 

 

I mean... this all kind of depends on what proc options exist per given spell and whether or not you want to load all your good ones in a specific power or if you want to spread them out.  Also, atleast on the first example you’re using two unique procs.  So it’s not really fair to say that across the board procs are fundamentally worthwhile.  If you go about having to put more commonly resisted proc options in powers then your mileage is gonna vary a lot vs someone who slots toxic / energy / fire.  For one, you can only get away with sticking that extra ranged toxic in there because of the sniper set compatibility.  That doesn’t transfer to most abilities and

If you spread your procs out, with a few exceptions  you won't even notice they are there and it's especially true for single target powers. Procs fire inversely according to the amount of recharge you have in your  power. More recharge equals less procs per activation (global doesn't count). With the exception of some holds almost all blaster single target powers start out cycling to fast to get the cap.

 

Taking fire as an example

Flares  Rech = 2.18 s cast = 1.118 s  cycle time ~3.3  s cycle time  a 3.5 PPM proc that does 71 damage will contribute an additional 7 damage damage or so here if you have

compare to blazing bolt Rech = 12 s Cast time (no idea what the proc will use but going with the slow mode) = 4.84 combined cycle time ~17s so a 3.5 PPM proc that does approximately 63 damage here

 

The above are just done off the top of my head and meant to be illustrative.  The next step is building for global recharge to amp up the overwhelming effect the procs have on damage output of that ability.