Pylon Damage Thread

[Frosticus]

10 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

 

The auto containment for Controllers too (strongly helps Illusion) and the stationary nature benefits storm (Or any secondary with Rains).

 

In addition in Incarnate content the pets are equal level as well.

 

The 20% resist across the board resist does not reflect typical enemy resistance distribution.

 

No doubt the pylon has many flaws.

 

If someone has a better target I am all ears.

I remember this same discussion back on live when I first debuted my ill/cold that was crazy fast by  the standards of that time.

-containment has a pretty minor impact on the overall performance of most offensive illusion controllers, but you are correct, it skews the results

-same for many offensive controllers that don't really use their st immob as part of their chain

 

Honestly, my sav/shield stalker can rarely hit something more than a couple times before I break its morale and it tries to flee. So dps "chains" are pretty uncommon for that character outside of teams that lockdown/taunt things in place. Of course in teams I crit way more often, so who's to say what actual dps is for such a build?

 

The 20% res may as well be 0% res because it affects everyone the same. Back in the day they had a psi hole, so that made a difference. 

Yes pets get extra lvl shifts in incarnate content, so pylons are perhaps more representative of what they could do in that content. 

 

Like I said before, I take every pylon result with a grain of salt. They really don't translate that well into the rest of the game. However, they are fun and interesting. I don't think @Bopper's discovery invalidates MM's, they can do insane damage. It is just information 

[Maxzero]

8 hours ago, Frosticus said:

I remember this same discussion back on live when I first debuted my ill/cold that was crazy fast by  the standards of that time.

-containment has a pretty minor impact on the overall performance of most offensive illusion controllers, but you are correct, it skews the results

-same for many offensive controllers that don't really use their st immob as part of their chain

 

Honestly, my sav/shield stalker can rarely hit something more than a couple times before I break its morale and it tries to flee. So dps "chains" are pretty uncommon for that character outside of teams that lockdown/taunt things in place. Of course in teams I crit way more often, so who's to say what actual dps is for such a build?

 

The 20% res may as well be 0% res because it affects everyone the same. Back in the day they had a psi hole, so that made a difference. 

Yes pets get extra lvl shifts in incarnate content, so pylons are perhaps more representative of what they could do in that content. 

 

Like I said before, I take every pylon result with a grain of salt. They really don't translate that well into the rest of the game. However, they are fun and interesting. I don't think @Bopper's discovery invalidates MM's, they can do insane damage. It is just information 

 

Don't get me started on DPS rotations. When I see some 5 power multi step monstrosity I just roll my eyes.  

 

Even my VEAT with a 3 power 1-2-3 rotation feels clunky at times. 

 

I have found using and ordering powers by priority tends to work much more effectively in play conditions. Basically just use your best powers first.

 

As for MMs lately I have found their gameplay so awkward and finicky that the final output is often not work the effort.

 

When I am sitting in Ouro and LFG starts a speed ITF, LGTF or Miss Liberty am I going to bring my MM? No. A Yin TF farm? No I don't get the key Upgrade Equipment power at 32. AE farm? Nope.

 

As for Incarnate content Apex, Tin, TPN and Lamda are all a complete pain only BAF is MM friendly.

 

So my Tankers and VEAT get a lot more play in general anyway.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Maxzero

[Maxzero]

8 hours ago, xl8 said:

Can you link this anywhere?

 

It's in the thread about people crying about Dark Miasma losing Defender values for the Heal and Tar Patch.

 

They didn't confirm the details just that TW will receive adjustments in page 6.

[marcussmythe]

RE Pylons, Pets, and Procs (with a nod to Mastermind Performance)

 

I recently discovered that lore pets are applying the -Max HP debuff from the Degenerative Interface (I only have it at T3, can provide screen shots).  

 

This is news to me.  At some points, my character had 4 stacks of the proc for nearly -4K max HP on the thing, with at  times another stack or three from my Vanguard buddies.  Total was as high as -7000ish HP at some times.

IF Mastermind Pets (or Epic Pets, or Soldier of Arachnos Pets) are handing out that Proc, they could easily be crushing the Pylons HP Total.  Similarly, if Storm and other 'Pseudopets' are applying Degenderative - well, weve see insane times out of Storm, right?

 

If this is old news, Ill hush and go sit in my corner - but it was news TO ME, and interesting at that.  Its also got me wondering if we arent seeing performance that (to me) is surprising out of really-fast-attacking sets.. the faster you can toss attacks out, the more procs, the less regen and total HP to deal with (of course, this is trivial compared to just having more attackers!)

 

EDIT - Just did some testing, thank you Cortege of Excelsior.. while myself and my caraphract and my nullifeir might have 1-2 stacks each (once up to 4 for me very briefly), Cortege and all his pets and all their powers created at most 1 proc on the target.

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by marcussmythe

[marcussmythe]

Double Post Deleted

Edited June 21, 2020 by marcussmythe

[Sir Myshkin]

11 hours ago, Maxzero said:

If someone has a better target I am all ears.

Using the Pylon (originally those many many years ago) was never about it being "difficult" or anything. It was a stationary target that had a mass of HP with a regeneration rate comparable to an AV, and a set base value of resistance (to all) that made it a consistent and easy target to tackle for the purpose of calculating DPS. There were still many many builds out there which struggled with 6-7-8:00 times, some even longer, some that couldn't even manage. Part of it was build knowledge, part of it was progression of IO's.

 

Towards the end of Retail and our continuation here the challenge has become less about "can I do it" and more "how FAST can I do it?"

 

In contextual relevance to the more current topic when it comes to running targets (or variance in resistances, abilities) the sub 60/s times are crazy, but if that much damage can be produced so quickly it still demonstrates a high capacity to likely arrest a target within a five minute window even if it does rabbit on the player.

 

2 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

If this is old news, Ill hush and go sit in my corner - but it was news TO ME, and interesting at that.

Alpha should apply to any power (Primary/Secondary/Pool) in your build that could take the appropriate enhancement effect it provides. Interface should trigger off any ability that inflicts damage (and this extends to pets as they are a primarily chosen ability, and the interface is like a slotted proc ability in the pet enhancement).

 

Interface procs however have a stacked limit (I don't remember the actual number, like somewhere between 4-6? I think it's 5...) that they can be applied per individual target regardless of the "source" of the trigger. This is what prevents 24 people running into a BAF with something like Degenerative and dropping Siege or Nightstar down to 10 HP just for breathing on them. This same reason is why variation in choosing Interface abilities is so much more important as it opens up the group dynamic impact. Taking Reactive or Degenerative is fun for solo or small group purposes, but they aggressively loose their value in league play since there's a high chance four or five or fifteen other people have that same one (of two common) choice(s).

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Interface procs however have a stacked limit (I don't remember the actual number, like somewhere between 4-6? I think it's 5...)

I believe the debuffs have a max stack of 4, and the DoTs have a max stack of 8

[Hjarki]

44 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Using the Pylon (originally those many many years ago) was never about it being "difficult" or anything. It was a stationary target that had a mass of HP with a regeneration rate comparable to an AV, and a set base value of resistance (to all) that made it a consistent and easy target to tackle for the purpose of calculating DPS. There were still many many builds out there which struggled with 6-7-8:00 times, some even longer, some that couldn't even manage. Part of it was build knowledge, part of it was progression of IO's.

There really has been a bifurcation between people who are simply trying to get an objective gauge of dps and people who are actually competing on pylons. Both are certainly reasonable approaches, but we shouldn't confuse the two.

 

As noted, pet-based classes have some enormous advantages that don't tend to exist in the game at all. But even more conventional builds like TW/Bio don't turn in times really reflective of their effectiveness - the wind-up time of Titan Weapons is (mostly) meaningless on a pylon but hugely important in actual play.

[Maxzero]

43 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Using the Pylon (originally those many many years ago) was never about it being "difficult" or anything. It was a stationary target that had a mass of HP with a regeneration rate comparable to an AV, and a set base value of resistance (to all) that made it a consistent and easy target to tackle for the purpose of calculating DPS. There were still many many builds out there which struggled with 6-7-8:00 times, some even longer, some that couldn't even manage. Part of it was build knowledge, part of it was progression of IO's.

 

Towards the end of Retail and our continuation here the challenge has become less about "can I do it" and more "how FAST can I do it?"

 

In contextual relevance to the more current topic when it comes to running targets (or variance in resistances, abilities) the sub 60/s times are crazy, but if that much damage can be produced so quickly it still demonstrates a high capacity to likely arrest a target within a five minute window even if it does rabbit on the player.

 

Alpha should apply to any power (Primary/Secondary/Pool) in your build that could take the appropriate enhancement effect it provides. Interface should trigger off any ability that inflicts damage (and this extends to pets as they are a primarily chosen ability, and the interface is like a slotted proc ability in the pet enhancement).

 

Interface procs however have a stacked limit (I don't remember the actual number, like somewhere between 4-6? I think it's 5...) that they can be applied per individual target regardless of the "source" of the trigger. This is what prevents 24 people running into a BAF with something like Degenerative and dropping Siege or Nightstar down to 10 HP just for breathing on them. This same reason is why variation in choosing Interface abilities is so much more important as it opens up the group dynamic impact. Taking Reactive or Degenerative is fun for solo or small group purposes, but they aggressively loose their value in league play since there's a high chance four or five or fifteen other people have that same one (of two common) choice(s).

 

But whenever you are beating on an AV in a group (the only situation where mass Interface stacking might be an issue) what else has an impact apart from -res and -max hp? Remember whatever other Interface debuff you are aiming also maxes out at 4 stacks.

 

The only one I can think of is Paralytic for the -dam debuff.

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

 

But whenever you are beating on an AV in a group (the only situation where mass Interface stacking might be an issue) what else has an impact apart from -res and -max hp? Remember whatever other Interface debuff you are aiming also maxes out at 4 stacks.

 

The only one I can think of is Paralytic for the -dam debuff.

I think regen and dots...although regen is typically resisted in such a fight.

[marcussmythe]

8 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Interface should trigger off any ability that inflicts damage (and this extends to pets as they are a primarily chosen ability, and the interface is like a slotted proc ability in the pet enhancement).

Then what may be interesting here is that my helpful Thugs Mastermind never had more than one proc on the target pylon, despite having his full set of Thugs hammering away on it for minutes, while I could fairly casually generated 5 stacks between myself and my lore pets.  This suggests that MM pets are behaving differently than Lore Pets, and makes me wonder how APP Pets (and perhaps Soldier of Arachnos pets) are doing.

 

However, if there is a hard absolute limit of around 5 instances of the debuff on the target, it probably does not matter all that much.

[Sir Myshkin]

21 hours ago, Hjarki said:

There really has been a bifurcation between people who are simply trying to get an objective gauge of dps and people who are actually competing on pylons. Both are certainly reasonable approaches, but we shouldn't confuse the two.

While I agree with you on this, I don't feel that there's ever really been purposeful focus on creating builds specifically for the intention of taking out a Pylon.

 

21 hours ago, Maxzero said:

But whenever you are beating on an AV in a group (the only situation where mass Interface stacking might be an issue)...

I used an AV as a wide-scale small-world example, but look at it again from the grand perspective. If every AoE a single player fires off has a chance to drop an Interface effect on each thing it hits, and there's 24 players actively spamming AoE's under this purpose, you're going to get a lot of redundant impact. Even in a case of just an 8-Super team, if just one of those players alone knowingly has the capacity to get 4 stacks of their debuff, they invalidate the other 7 players by consequence. Now obviously we don't want to all shift off the idea of having Reactive or Degenerative on a team as they're just that useful, but maybe we should have better collective thought on the subject as to leaving those Interface to AT's more focused on frontal damage, and start diversifying to other Interface slots for those in Support roles. Even on the case of DoT alone, if we have an 8-stack cap, and we can achieve that with just a couple of players, I--personally--would want to still have a hand in output, so going with a more obscure Interface is going to net me not only that opportunity to for-sure be a hat in the ring, but also bring something fun for the non-AV's out there.

 

I think we've (the entire player base) been too focused on the "MAX" portion of that Min-Max ideal when it comes to each individual build and not looked at the "MAX" portion of what a team can produce. No one has attempted to take a League of players sporting Cognitive Core into an iTrial, but could you imagine just 16 people dropping AoE's that each target hit, gets hit with a 20% chance to become confused? I mean, just imagining the hilarity of the prisoner escape phase of a BAF where they just turn around and start bashing on each other instead of running away? Turnabout's fair play. And yes some of the Interface effects are more significant than others on a small scale (-Regen on tiny amounts just doesn't have much weight purple-patch or not), but we're definitely missing out on the grand-scale.

 

For me, at this point, and as has been for a while now, I've been going after the more obtuse options.

 

 

[Bierfuizl]

19 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

Then what may be interesting here is that my helpful Thugs Mastermind never had more than one proc on the target pylon, despite having his full set of Thugs hammering away on it for minutes, while I could fairly casually generated 5 stacks between myself and my lore pets.  This suggests that MM pets are behaving differently than Lore Pets, and makes me wonder how APP Pets (and perhaps Soldier of Arachnos pets) are doing.

 

However, if there is a hard absolute limit of around 5 instances of the debuff on the target, it probably does not matter all that much.

Quick test:

 

 

Most I saw in that one minute of pylon life was five. But will keep an eye on it. Even the small Spiderlings trigger degen.

 

[Bopper]

I took my Stone/SS/Soul tank out for a test run to feature its attack chain fluidity. I wanted to see what my attack chain would be when I use Base Empowerment buffs...in particular, the Increased Attack Speed (+20% recharge for 90 minutes). Afterall, I almost always grab these buffs while I'm playing.

 

The good news, I finally realized what my Single Target attack chain is. The better news, oh my I did not realize how much an extra 20% recharge could be for my Granite build. I didn't save all of my times, but two stood out. Previously, I would achieve about 4 minutes when I did not click Hybrid, and about 3 minutes when I did click Hybrid. Now, without clicking Hybrid, I am regularly getting below 3:30 times, and I hit a 3:03 and a 3:01 mark tonight.

 

I have more details posted here, but basically my attack chain was Cross Punch > Gloom > Dark Obliteration > Knockout Blow > Cross Punch > Gloom > Foot Stomp.

I used T4 Musculature Radial, T4 Degenerative Core, T4 Ageless Core, and T4 Assault Radial (not clicked). Also used the +20% Recharge buff and +17% Recovery buff from Base Empowerment.

 

Cross Punch slotted: FotG proc (-Res), Armageddon Proc, Armageddon +5 DMG/END, two Rare damage Procs, Force Feedback Proc

Foot Stomp slotted: Armageddon +5 DMG, four Rare damage Procs, Force Feedback Proc

Knockout Blow slotted: Hecatomb +5 DMG, 2 Epic damage Procs, 2 Rare damage Procs, Force Feedback Proc

Gloom slotted: Apoc Proc, Apoc +5 DMG, Apoc +5 DMG/END, two Rare damage Procs

Dark Obliteration: Ragnorak +5 DMG, four Rare damage Procs, Annihilation Proc (-Res)

 

Times:

3:01     (340 DPS)

3:03     (337 DPS)

3:26     (314 DPS)

3:49     (295 DPS)  - Ran out of Endurance when I forgot to cast Ageless a 2nd time. caused a 5 second hiatus to re-toggle armors, but I forgot to re-toggle Assault and I was slow to re-toggle Mud Pots. Safe to say this was a very bad run (actually was going amazing until the hiccup), yet still broke 4 minute time.

 

[marcussmythe]

Invuln/EM

T4 Degen Core,T4 Musculature, T4 Assault Radial (Active)

3:18, 3:26, 3:30

 

Leaning hard on lining up a Gloom-Energy Transfer-Bone Smasher-Total Focus cycle behind a Gausians Buildup and a Buildup Procced Gloom.  With luck, they both line up and you can carry two build-ups through the entire cycle - with three for the first few attacks.

 

Like most things, if it were even a little faster, it would be a LOT faster - the whole thing stumbles when the buffs have to be recast at 2 minutes.  The set suffers badly from the lack of Force Feedback and -RES - Energy Melee does not offer good proc opportunities.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sir Myshkin]

20 hours ago, Bopper said:

Times:

3:01     (340 DPS)

3:03     (337 DPS)

3:26     (314 DPS)

3:49     (295 DPS)  - Ran out of Endurance when I forgot to cast Ageless a 2nd time. caused a 5 second hiatus to re-toggle armors, but I forgot to re-toggle Assault and I was slow to re-toggle Mud Pots. Safe to say this was a very bad run (actually was going amazing until the hiccup), yet still broke 4 minute time.

I could assume as I know it still can be with the Granite debuffs, but you are double stacking Rage, yeah? Mostly a curiosity. The inclusion of Foot Stomp, do you still have a gap in there even with FF+Rech in KO Blow that you're filling, or is that a "just because"? From an AoE inclusive aspect that's still a strong display of damage either way, but if you don't need that filler you should get a reasonable bump without it in your cycle (from a ST perspective). Also try doing a couple tests with Hybrid Assault Core active if you're up for it, you should be able to brush 2:30 at a minimum if you're already overcoming into 3:00 without a hybrid active. Given how much you're compensating for the debuffs as-is, I'm curious how close you can get to what a Bio/SS can breaking under 2:00 without having Cross Punch's -Res.

 

1 hour ago, marcussmythe said:

Leaning hard on lining up a Gloom-Energy Transfer-Bone Smasher-Total Focus

Was this a Live test or Brainstorm test? Try without Total Focus. If you dove into Fighting Pool and can swap in Cross Punch by porting the character over to trial it in your build for the -Res proc (if you pick up, don't need to slot, boxing and kick, CP will be a pretty solid attack), and swap to Assault Core instead of Radial, should get better times. Total Focus is such a time-sink power when it misses and it really kills performance when there's two attacks in a single chain that are over 2.5/s in animation time and either one (or both) miss. Total Focus proc'd out and appropriately damage enhanced is probably doing... 700-800 damage (three procs on average, probably 740ish)? Energy Punch proc'd in the same fashion will do ~210 (average of one proc per hit), over 3/s total time 630 damage, at 3.5/s 735 (matching TF time). Cross Punch's damage with Boxing/Kick in the build isn't as good a DPA as Energy Punch, having the -Res proc in CP will pay out dividends to the rest of the build's abilities.

[marcussmythe]

1 minute ago, Sir Myshkin said:

I could assume as I know it still can be with the Granite debuffs, but you are double stacking Rage, yeah? Mostly a curiosity. The inclusion of Foot Stomp, do you still have a gap in there even with FF+Rech in KO Blow that you're filling, or is that a "just because"? From an AoE inclusive aspect that's still a strong display of damage either way, but if you don't need that filler you should get a reasonable bump without it in your cycle (from a ST perspective). Also try doing a couple tests with Hybrid Assault Core active if you're up for it, you should be able to brush 2:30 at a minimum if you're already overcoming into 3:00 without a hybrid active. Given how much you're compensating for the debuffs as-is, I'm curious how close you can get to what a Bio/SS can breaking under 2:00 without having Cross Punch's -Res.

 

Was this a Live test or Brainstorm test? Try without Total Focus. If you dove into Fighting Pool and can swap in Cross Punch by porting the character over to trial it in your build for the -Res proc (if you pick up, don't need to slot, boxing and kick, CP will be a pretty solid attack), and swap to Assault Core instead of Radial, should get better times. Total Focus is such a time-sink power when it misses and it really kills performance when there's two attacks in a single chain that are over 2.5/s in animation time and either one (or both) miss. Total Focus proc'd out and appropriately damage enhanced is probably doing... 700-800 damage (three procs on average, probably 740ish)? Energy Punch proc'd in the same fashion will do ~210 (average of one proc per hit), over 3/s total time 630 damage, at 3.5/s 735 (matching TF time). Cross Punch's damage with Boxing/Kick in the build isn't as good a DPA as Energy Punch, having the -Res proc in CP will pay out dividends to the rest of the build's abilities.

Ill look at that - its a live build, but its just money and respecs.

 

Hmm.  Drop Total Focus, Tactics, Manuvers.  Gonna cost me the set bonuses Im currently enjoying in Energy Punch (assuming I Proc up Cross Punch and Energy Punch).

 

Crafting another Incarnate T4 will take  while, but was on my to-do list anyway.

 

Thanks for the advice.  Ill fiddle with it on test and see if it gives enough to justify the respec.
 

Or I may just call ‘good enough’, since its all getting rebuilt when Page 6 hits, most likely. 🙂

 

Thanks for the idea!

[Bopper]

9 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

I could assume as I know it still can be with the Granite debuffs, but you are double stacking Rage, yeah? Mostly a curiosity. The inclusion of Foot Stomp, do you still have a gap in there even with FF+Rech in KO Blow that you're filling, or is that a "just because"? From an AoE inclusive aspect that's still a strong display of damage either way, but if you don't need that filler you should get a reasonable bump without it in your cycle (from a ST perspective). Also try doing a couple tests with Hybrid Assault Core active if you're up for it, you should be able to brush 2:30 at a minimum if you're already overcoming into 3:00 without a hybrid active. Given how much you're compensating for the debuffs as-is, I'm curious how close you can get to what a Bio/SS can breaking under 2:00 without having Cross Punch's -Res.

Foot Stomp is a gap filler. And I do hit double stacked rage...at least some of the time. I should record a run to see for certain, but I assume if my Hasten is perma, double stacked rage should be pretty close. I tend to be so laser focused on my rotation that I don't really monitor my attributes in real time.

 

I did do some tests with Hybrid Assault Radial, and my runs tend to be pretty consistent in the 2:35-2:45 range. I would think Radial would be preferred over Core, but not sure. Gloom, KoB, and Cross Punch could get some good benefit, but yeah, I'll definitely try it out.

[Sir Myshkin]

48 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I did do some tests with Hybrid Assault Radial, and my runs tend to be pretty consistent in the 2:35-2:45 range. I would think Radial would be preferred over Core, but not sure. Gloom, KoB, and Cross Punch could get some good benefit, but yeah, I'll definitely try it out.

With the adjustment to the damage scale, Core's +Dam has far more impact than Radial's +Proc. That really comes down to just... traumatizing levels of Tank testing.

 

If you've got Gaussian's BU in Rage then offset stack. 60's, crash for 10, then reapply Rage and get the bonus BU through Gloom, Dark, CP, KO (big fat orange numbers). Unfortunately it does require a tiny bit of focus on when the crash occurs, watching for when it dries up, and recasting Rage. Being in Granite will make it a lot harder, but on Bio/SS with the added push, and a little extra sprinkle of +Dam in a few areas, between Assault Core and Bonus Rage I could very nearly touch the damage cap for that brief instant. If you've got Perma Hasten you definitely have the ability to "double stack" Rage because I can do it with 136% global and FF+Rech firing off nearly every KO Blow.

 

Also, since the -Res proc in Cross Punch is doing about the same amount as what Evolving Armor does correction FotG is greater at -20%, depending on its consistency I do think you can break 2:30, possibly even better. When I tested Bio/SS it was without Cross Punch in the cycle adding another -Res vector, and another player posted a time in this thread somewhere with Cross Punch included and easily dipped below 2:00. For your Granite and the damage offset you'll still be behind the marker a tad bit, but I'd imagine you could easily get 300% damage going, with that BU proc getting you even higher.

 

55 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

 Ill fiddle with it on test and see if it gives enough to justify the respec.

That's what makes test so nice to have! It makes it easy to take a completed build and tweak it temporarily without worrying about investment and time 🙂

Edited June 25, 2020 by Sir Myshkin
edit: I forgot my obligatory "nerf Rage"

[Bopper]

9 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

With the adjustment to the damage scale, Core's +Dam has far more impact than Radial's +Proc. That really comes down to just... traumatizing levels of Tank testing.

I won't say anything definitive, as I would have to test it on beta and just see which works out better. However, using napkin math (excel math, honestly), you'd be surprised just how much Radial brings to the table and my numbers might suggest it's actually better than Core. However, the reason why I can't say with certainty actually has to do ENTIRELY with Mud Pots. 

 

I'm sure you're aware, but not everyone else is so I'll present this for education purposes. The Assault Radial gives your damaging attacks a 6 PPM proc and the damage from that proc will depend on the base recharge and Area Factor of the attack (similar to the design formula). For click power attacks, the formula is:

DoubleHitDMG = 0.4 x 107.0897 x 0.2 x [0.8 x minmax(BaseRecharge, 1s, 30s) + 1.8] / AreaFactor

 

where Area Factor is:

AreaFactor = 1 + Radius x (11 x Arc + 540) / 30000

 

For toggles (and pseudopets, I imagine), the damage is calculated as:

DoubleHitDMG = 0.4 x 107.0897 x 0.11 x minmax(ActivatePeriod, 0s, 2s) / AreaFactor

 

In this case, the ActivatePeriod is the activation period of the toggle (for Mud Pots this is 2s).

 

So when I crank out the numbers comparing the Double-Hit Damage from Radial with a maxed out Core (+75% damage), I get the following.

	Base	75% Dmg	6ppm Proc	diff
CP	87.22	65.42	56.01	-9.41
KoB	188.07	141.05	186.76	45.71
FS	75.02	56.27	46.92	-9.34
Gloom	78.30	58.73	97.67	38.94
DO	40.04	30.03	68.01	37.98
Mud Pots	9.51	7.13	4.28	n/a

 

I left off the difference on Mud Pots for a reason, which I'll get to later. But if we just look at the attack rotation, only Cross-Punch and Foot Stomp improve from having Core over Radial, and it's only 9 damage different. However, Knockout Blow, Gloom, and Dark Obliteration each do roughly 40 more damage. But, we also must factor in the fact that as a 6 PPM proc, Cross-Punch and Knockout Blow are 81.2% and 82.2% chance to proc, respectively. All others are easily capped at 90%.

 

So if I evaluate my rotation: CP>Gloom>D.O.>KoB>CP>Gloom>FS, we can calculate that to be an arcanatime of 12.144s. So let's call it 13s to factor in occasional gaps in fluctuating recharge. Now let's consider the 120s duration, with a 13s attack chain I can fit in 9.23 chains. Let's round that down to 9 chains to be fair...to factor in other things I might cast, which is really just Rage (Hasten and Ageless are on the same 120s duration).

 

So 9 chains of 12.144s = 109.296s, which suggests I will have 10.704s of gaps and Rage casts. That is probably more than generous to assume. But it gives me a number to use, so let's use it.

 

With 9 chains of the above mentioned rotation, we can expect the following added damage from Core and Radial (factoring 95% chance to hit and proc probabilities)

	Per Chain	9x Chains
Attack Chain Core	451.85	4066.62
Attack Chain Rad	507.89	4571.01

 

A difference of 504.4 damage over the duration of the Hybrid. Or in another words, Radial adds 12.4% more damage than Core for the attack chain.

 

Ok...so that was my motivation for choosing Radial, however as I was putting together this exercise I had to factor in Mud Pots (which I didn't really focus on before). This is where Core catches up...big time. Not only do we see Mudpots doing more damage with Core than it does with Radial, but that damage is applied every 2 seconds. HOWEVER (and I don't know if this is technically working as intended...but it's working as designed, I think), the Double-Hit proc seems to still check once every 10 seconds roughly. I did a 2 tests to see how many procs I got from Radial over the duration of the Hybrid, and those tests produced 5 and 7 procs. So I strongly suspect the probability to proc is equal to 6 x 10 / 60 / (1 + 8 x 0.15 x 0.75) = 1 / 1.9 = 52.63% every 10s.

 

So if I wanted to compare Core to Radial for Mud Pots, the numbers would suggest the following, assuming 95% chance to hit per tick every 2 seconds. Not applying the 95% chance to the proc as I think if a tick misses, it will still get a chance on a subsequent tick. So I'll assume 52.63% chance to proc every 10 seconds:

	Total DMG
Mud Pots Core	406.41
Mud Pots Radial	27.05

 

From these numbers, we can see Core GREATLY outproduces Radial for Damage Auras. By 379.4 damage! Combine this with the analysis from the attack chain and we get:

	9x Chains
Core Total DMG	4473.03
Radial Total DMG	4598.07

 

This shows Radial still outproduces, but it's only +125 damage (+2.8%).

 

So...that all is mostly just food for thought. If I had a non damage aura like Invulnerability or Radiation Armor, then Radial would have been a clear choice given my slotting and attack chain. Since I have a damage aura, it is a bit of a toss up (should still test this though). As for Bio, I don't know which is better honestly. Bio has a damage aura, so that plays a big part, but I think either would do very well.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Bopper

[Sir Myshkin]

11 hours ago, Bopper said:

So...that all is mostly just food for thought. If I had a non damage aura like Invulnerability or Radiation Armor, then Radial would have been a clear choice given my slotting and attack chain. Since I have a damage aura, it is a bit of a toss up (should still test this though). As for Bio, I don't know which is better honestly. Bio has a damage aura, so that plays a big part, but I think either would do very well.

What's interesting is seeing some raw math on what "should" be happening, versus what plays out. When I did all the Tanker testing, I did trial both Core and Radial, in fact I started with Radial because (at the time) I had started before the buff on some preliminary testing, and then did bucket loads of testing after the fact. Multiple different Melee sets, Radial always produced an average result less than Core. I didn't scour the combat logs for proc chances or success of those chances, I only had raw times to go off.

 

In the realm of Radial versus no-Hybrid, the differences in timing were often "small", 15-20 seconds, sometimes a bit more (30/s at best) in those scenarios were I was taking the Pylon down in 2:30-4:00 minutes. If I switched to Core I was shaving time much more aggressively, more consistently in that 25-30/s offset. I'd have to really dig for the posts about it as I don't have my sticky notes anymore, and its been like six months, but in a case of something like the Bio/SS testing, not using Core I was floating around like 2:40-2:25 I think, and Core turned on I could hit 2:00-2:05 without even thinking about it, Radial I couldn't break like 2:15. In those time constraints we're talking about... like 40 DPS (minimum) offset, that's definitely not coming from just Genetic Contamination.

 

I also know I'm not the only one that's ever seen that clear disparity between the two on higher-modifier damage sets as there are many over the last year who've tried both and the common theme is Core for Melee/Blasters and Radial for Support. When comparing on the Support sets Radial always tested better, and those sets get such a lower return from Core so it made sense that I'd get more from proc'ing 60 pts to 120 than trying to boost 60 pts on a bad modifier to try and get 80 or 90.

 

I'll be honest, I've never seen the math broken down, so that's curious.

[Bopper]

First off, I owe you testing. I'm sorry I haven't had time to get to it yet, but I'll try it tonight. But I love discussing theory, and I think it's fun if I can provide my thoughts now so that I can eat crow later when I know you'll prove me wrong haha. Ok, on with the show...

 

8 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

What's interesting is seeing some raw math on what "should" be happening, versus what plays out.

 

There are really so many variables in play that it is hard to say there is a definite consensus on what should be used. In general, Core might be better on DPS sets and Radial might be better on Support sets. However, I don't think it is a hard set guideline. I think it is all based on base damage of an attack, the recharge, and the AoE.

 

I looked through most of your Proc Monster Tanker thread (first 6 pages, I think), and I came across two things you tested (Bio/SS and SR/TW) that seems to merit comparing here.

 

You tested a Bio/SS/Soul build and threw in a couple of runs with Core active (but I never saw Radial active). The rotation I believe you said you used was Punch>Haymaker>Gloom>KoB>Haymaker>Punch (I assume you meant Punch>Haymaker, as a back-to-back Punch might not be what you did). I added those powers to my spreadsheet, assumed no recharge slotted, and factored in the 6 PPM Double Hit proc probability into the difference (positive diff means Radial is better).

	Base	75% Dmg (core)	6ppm Proc (radial)	DblHit Chance	diff
Cross Punch	87.22	65.42	56.01	81.21%	-19.93
KoB	188.07	141.05	186.76	90.00%	27.04
Foot Stomp	75.02	56.27	46.92	82.23%	-17.68
Gloom	78.30	58.73	97.67	90.00%	29.17
Punch	52.83	39.62	42.84	52.00%	-17.35
Haymaker	86.64	64.98	70.25	90.00%	-1.75
Dark Obliteration	40.04	30.03	68.01	90.00%	31.18

 

With your chain, Punch benefits quite a bit from Core and Haymaker slightly does too. Knockout Blow and Gloom prefer radial, but assuming a chain of P>H>G>KoB>P>H, you're looking at a net of Core only losing 18.01 points of damage over a course of roughly 10 seconds. So the 1.8 DPS loss probably does not matter given the gains you would get from your damage toggle (which gives +2.972 DPS). So in the case of the build and the rotation, I would think, Core would be very similar to Radial, with Core winning out.

 

But I'm not totally certain this was tested on this build. So I'll turn my focus to the SR/TW build that you used that compared Core with Radial. In the case of TW, the base damage is so inflated and the recharge is low, and the AoEs are large, that I would think Core should win out, but I'll run the numbers. I'll use Fast Mode for all Proc calculations. I don't know your rotations, but it might not matter. Here is a breakdown of the most popular attacks from the set:

	Base	75% Dmg	6ppm Proc	DblHit Chance	diff
CB	95.30	71.48	70.25	90.00%	-8.25
FT	128.21	96.16	83.96	90.00%	-20.59
RA	169.69	127.27	125.08	90.00%	-14.69
AoD	137.15	102.86	94.13	90.00%	-18.14
WS	72.31	54.23	34.27	55.81%	-35.11

 

As we can see, in every case, the Core is far superior than the Radial. So, the numbers you saw when comparing Core with Radial are completely believable to me. Even without having a damage aura, the fast casts of that much superior performance would likely results in much higher DPS disparities.

 

So...where does that leave us? I should test...and see. I didn't see as much of a difference with my Radial as I hoped, which makes me wonder if I just got lucky with my two near-3 minute times in a sample of maybe 6. Radial has been consistent for me, almost everything in the 2:35-2:45 range with my build, so I'm very curious if Core could break free for me a sub 2:30 time. I'll try to do a run now before dinner and try some more tonight before bed. I will definitelly keep you posted.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Bopper

[Bopper]

Ok, quick test using Assault Core:

Run 1: 2:53

Run 2: 2:43

Run 3: 3:25   (This I might throw out. There's a chance I didn't wait for Rage to wear off and I corrupted the test with an extra crash).

Run 4: 2:39

Run 5: 2:52

Run 6: 3:22   (Legit run...just didn't go well, got a rage crash when I was one knockout blow away from ending it)

 

However, I went back and looked at my Radial Times and they are actually very close to these as well.

2:37

2:43

2:46

2:47

2:52

2:54

 

So I'm starting to wonder if my non-Hybrid times of 3:01, 3:03, 3:27, and 3:33 just included two unicorn times in the span of 4 runs. I should test more without Hybrid and see what the true performance is.

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Bopper

[Sir Myshkin]

3 hours ago, Bopper said:

So...where does that leave us?

I didn't get back with this right away as I ended up having to step away for dinner and such, but I scribbled some things down and recorded a couple of sessions with my Blaster (I had earnestly wanted to test his performance anyway). In the most amount of truth I wanted something to have been different and maybe think "Hey, after that Interface fix maybe there's something else going on with Doublehit?" Sadly, no, it fell right where I expected it to (15-20/s average disparity).

 

I did come out of this with something interesting though: Everything Double Hit except Blizzard. I scrolled through my combat logs after a Pylon run looking for the notification of the proc and it was tagged on every single attack--Freeze Ray, Bitter Ice Blast, Negatron Slam, and eventually cycle in Ice Blast when my recharge dips below a certain threshold as Ageless wears off. For sake of understanding the mechanic, Ice Blast has 79% Recharge Enhancement, BIB is 59%, FRay is 0%, and NS is 46%.

 

With Core active, for whatever reason that attributed to it, I didn't consistently stay at 5 stacks, it dropped to 4 often enough that as I fast forward through the video I can see it go up and down.

 

Since -Res was in play with Achilles Heel and Reactive snapshotting consistent damage values wasn't something I could just grab without sampling, I just snagged a couple close to each other to get an idea to compare Core to Radial expectations. While saturated Negatron Slam I averaged 398, on Radial I was averaging 250+70.

 

Tangent question, the base values you listed in your charts, where are those from? I was looking in Mid's and the Mid's values are a tad lower in most cases (5-8 pts, 10 in a couple) and a couple higher (AoD as one). I checked on an empty build. I haven't looked in-game to check any of that.

 

Anyway, the Blaster, Ice/Atomic T4'd to the gills (Reactive Radial, Musculature Core, Judgement Pyre Radial, Ageless Core) Swapped between Core and Radial Assault Hybrid:

 

Baseline: 2:45-3:00 if I get knocked around too much (No KB Protection, I use Melee Core for normal game play)

 

Two runs with Assault Radial:

2:14

2:19

I started a third but Dropship

 

Two runs with Assault Core:

1:57

2:06

 

Had about 2-3 KB's each run as I recall, didn't really count, easy to ignore, but they do slow a Blaster down. I gotta say it was a weird experience running up to the Pylon and watching it melt so aggressively that Ageless hadn't even popped yet.

[Bopper]

In general, it seems we are seeing what we would expect. When your base damage values are high, Core will likely benefit more.  When your base recharges are low, Core will likely benefit more.  When your attacks are AoE, Core will likely benefit more.  Granted, there is wiggle room there. For instance, I use Dark Obliteration, which is an AoE, but it greatly benefits from the fact is has 32s recharge (30s is capped double-hit damage, so some of the recharge is wasted), and the base damage is really low (Tanker's epics are a 0.8 scale for damage, and the scale for D.O. is only 0.9). I think in the case of Scrappers, Blasters, and Stalkers you will see Core almost always win out. Tankers generally will want Core (lots of AoE), but there are situations where proc-monster builds leveraging long recharge attacks for higher proc probabilities will be geared towards desiring Radial. But if they have a Damage aura, then probably not.  In the end, I think every build will need their own analysis to determine what's best, but in general, as you said, DPS characters will generally prefer Core and Support will generally prefer Radial.

 

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Everything Double Hit except Blizzard

Woof...Blizzard is not going to do good with Double-Hit...if it's even working. First thing, it's a pseudopet, so we would have to find out if the Double-Hit effect is passed to pseudopets (and maybe pets?) when you summon them. Let's say it does, let's see what kind of damage we could expect from a Blizzard pseudopet that has an activation period of 0.2s and a 30 foot radius.

DbleHitDMG = 0.4 x 107.0897 x 0.11 x minmax(ActivatePeriod, 0s, 2s) / AreaFactor

DblHitDMG = 0.4 x 107.0897 x 0.11 x 0.2 / (1 + 0.15 x 30) = 0.1713 damage per proc.

 

How often will it proc? I think it would be this:

ProcChance = 6 x 10s / 60s / (1 + 0.15 x 0.75 x 30) = 22.857%

 

So every 10s you will have 22.86% chance at doing 0.17 damage (would that even show up as an orange number?). So yeah, Blizzard needs Core. Or they need to fix Double-Hit to use the 10s activate period if the procs are only going to happen every 10s anyways.

 

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Tangent question, the base values you listed in your charts, where are those from?

Are you referring to Base Damage or Base Recharge? I'll assume Damage, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I use RubyRed's API tool (link in sig). I might not be dead-on-balls accurate, but it should be close. I should double check in game, but sometimes the in game numbers lie. For example, Tanker's Gloom is way off (it does less damage than the 113.53 or whatever it says it does). I also used this tool to verify the Double-Hit damage formula, which is why I am using 107.0897 instead of the standard 107.09 or 107.1 we tend to see. I trust their tool is reading in the number exactly. As for mids with Titan Weapons, I wouldn't trust it...the redirected powers are needing a full sweep for damage updating.

 

If there is a number specific that you see as possibly wrong, let me know and I'll double-check. But to be certain, I'll share everything I see from the API tool (note, while typing these out, I noticed I missed the fact the Titan Weapon's with DoTs are cancel on miss, so I need to correct my mistake here):

 

(all base_values are 52.8297;  damage = base_value x scale)

Punch:  scale = 1.0,  damage = 52.83

Haymaker:  scale = 1.64,  damage = 86.64

Knockout Blow:  scale = 3.56,  damage = 188.07

Foot Stomp:  scale = 1.42,  damage = 75.02

 

Follow Through:  scale1 = 2.156,  scale2 = 4 ticks (85% cancel on miss) of 0.1 scale

damage = 52.8297 * [2.156 + (0.85+0.85^2+0.85^3+0.85^4)*0.1] = 52.8297*2.426863125 = 128.21

Whirling Smash:  scale1 = 1.15,  scale2 = 3 ticks (85% cancel on miss) of 0.1 scale

damage = 52.8297*[1.15 + (0.85+0.85^2+0.85^3)*0.1] = 52.8297*1.3686625 = 72.31

Clobber:  scale = 1.804,  damage = 95.30

Rend Armor:  scale = 3.212,  damage = 169.69

Arc of Desctruction:  scale = 2.596,  damage = 137.15

 

For the epics all base_values are 44.4882

Gloom:  scale = 8 ticks of 0.22 scale,  damage = 44.4882 x 0.22 x 8 = 78.30

Dark Obliteration:  scale = 0.9,  damage = 40.04

 

Since I did notice some wrong numbers, I will go back and edit previous posts to reflect the correct numbers.