When you think someone is playing their AT "wrong" ...

[PaxArcana]

... don't.

Seriously, please just don't.

 

There is no One True Way, for good or ill, to play any particular archetype.  Defenders can focus on their attack powers.  Controllers can focus on their buffs and debuffs.  Masterminds can go petless.  This is all allowed ... and it absolutely dismays me that there are any people left in our community that don't understand that.  (I've just been having a back-and-forth about supposedly "playing Masterminds wrong" over in the Suggestions thread, which is what prompted this post.)

 

As long as you're not griefing other players .... do what you like.  Have fun.  People going against type, excuse me, against the assumptions of their archetype, has even inspired the creation of new archetypes.  Defenders who went for Attacks first, and buffs/debuffs last - known back in the day as Offenders - are why we have Corrupters.  Seriously, that's where the inspiration for Corruptors came from.  They aren't "blasters who can (de)buff", they are officially-canonized Offenders.

 

So when you find yourself thinking "s/he is doing it wrong" ... stop.  Ask yourself, not "isn't that wrong", but instead, "why are they playing that way?"  Heck, maybe ask them why they've chosen to play like that.  Who knows, maybe you'll decide the idea is worth checking out for yourself .... and maybe you'll even decide "HOLY CARP, THIS IS HELLA FUN!"

 

But whatever you do, don't tell anyone they're playing wrong, just because they aren't playing the way you think they're supposed to.  Because if you do ... then the only one who will be wrong, is you.

 

...

 

Thank you for listening to my TED talk.  😄 

>>> EDIT FOR CLARITY <<<

 

It seems I have been - as usual, perhaps - less than brilliantly clear in getting across my point.

 

I am NOT saying that you should never criticize anyone for any reason.

I am NOT saying that there is no such thing as playing badly.

I am NOT saying that you should just put up with whatever obnoxious behavior another player chooses to inflict on you, because oh the poor snowflake.

I AM saying, that you should not immediately leap to the conclusion that someone is playing their archetype wrong, just because they aren't playing it the way "everyone else" does, and especially not because they've chosen an unusual mix or powers, powersets, or enhancement slotting.

You should first ask why they have chosen to go in that direction, why they have chosen to try and buck the trend for their Archetype.  They may have a perfectly valid reason for being .... call it experimental, call it avant-garde, call it just plain wierd ... but, the important thing is, they may have a very good reason for how they've chosen to build their character.  Even if it's a completely silly reason - for example, "I lost a bet, this is my forfeit, I have to get it to 50.  Ugh."  That's still a reason!

 

Or maybe they don't.  Maybe they really are just completely clueless.  But, newsflash for everyone: if you start out saying "you are wrong", you stand a good chance of putting that person on the defensive.  They may then not only not listen to any advice you offer, but they may outright reject it completely.  A more collaborative tone is likely to produce much better results.  If they're a newbie to CoX ... reminisce about your own first weeks or months of play, and how much you learned.  Then, share those things with the newbie.  They're much more likely to listen to, and follow, advice given in a friendly tone, than in a derogatory or accusatory one.

Edited August 29, 2019 by PaxArcana

[Ironblade]

I prefer the point of view from Dilbert, where Dogbert is prepping Ratbert to appear on a talk show.

"Assume that everyone has read the same books you have and knows the same things you know.  So, if they disagree with you, it can only be because they are stupid."

🙂

[Omega-202]

I don't disagree with the premise, but at the same time, nobody should be guilted into or forced to stay on a team with someone not pulling their weight.  And that includes a leader politely removing an anchor from the team at an appropriate time.  I've bailed on teams with players who were just god awful and brought the whole team down because my play time is limited and it's not worth wasting it.  

 

It's rare for someone to be that bad or badly built but it does happen.  You dont need to berate them for it, but its valid to leave the team or offer suggestions if they spend 50% of the mission on the floor.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Omega-202

[PaxArcana]

It absolutely is valid to (politely) leave a team, or if you're the team leader, ask someone else to, when playstyles clash.  I, for example, dislike "zerg rush" styles of play.  So, I won't stay on a team that plays that way - or, in the vanishingly rare event I'm the team leader, if someone seems to be hellbent on playing that way, I'll explain that they just aren't a good fit, wish them the best of luck, and ask them to leave the team.

But that's the thing: the better approach to use is, "we don't fit well on the same team", rather than "you're not playing right".  🙂

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

When I pug TFs I tend to give a speech along the lines of " I dont micromanage. I trust each of you to do what you do to the best of your abilities, all I ask is dont afk inside maps if you need an extended afk to deal with something in RL. The only things that will get someone kicked off a TF team are constantly complaining. side seat leading, or trash talking another player openly. If someone has a serious issue with another in group PM me and explain to me the issue and I will try to smooth it over.  If someone is eating dirt often its because they are going off on their owna nd biting off more then they can chew because those that stay close to me are as safe as can be or worst case veng fodder to empower me and the team.

 

Dirt nappers that seek advice will get it, those who dont want it will likely not be making my list and given priority in future tfs I run.

 

But I dont hate on less adept players. If I did Id be hating on everyone. I reserve that view almost solely for those who think blasters are squishy. Get behind me tanks and brutes this blaster will protect you with the best form of defense which is laying waste with impunity at the speed of thought. No time for building fury, and nothing left to be taunting. But dont worry ill grab a cuppa when we reach an AV or Gm and let you all have some fun and feel useful;) be back in two shakes. What the thing is still alive I thought you some kind of bad arse brute!

[RubberDougie]

Every AT should fit in leadership!!!

[XaoGarrent]

2 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

But that's the thing: the better approach to use is, "we don't fit well on the same team", rather than "you're not playing right".  🙂

I know anything I say wont change this faulty way of thinking... 

 

...But let me just be blunt in saying that when a player hears this or gets this kind of reaction (as in "why do people keep quitting the team when I bring X character") from enough other players, they'll realize, eventually, no matter how much you wish to shield them from the hard, cold reality against them, that the problem is in fact in their lap. ...And they will be all the more angry at all the dishonest, patronizing people around them, even if they *are* actually too soft to handle reality.

 

People do, in fact, play their characters the wrong way, and when this happens, they deserve to be told the truth, in a straightforward manner. You say otherwise, but I know every single one of you here knows this is the truth, because I know you've all teamed with at least one Gravity Controller that puts the Troll in Controller, when they clearly don't mean to. There is no easy solution here, while you worry about hurting their feelings and scorn players who wish to correct them, you completely miss something obvious: That you're disrespecting the player in error by treating them like they're some combination of incapable of learning, too soft to face criticism and/or prefer a hugbox to reality.

Edited August 26, 2019 by XaoGarrent

[Heraclea]

This is one reason why I love playing tankers.  You either need me to tank for you or you don't.  I do everything I can to create an umbrella of protection for those teammates who want to stay inside it.   And this involves not zipping through the caves and tunnels, letting me take point, and trying to bunch up the mobs before you go to work. 

 

You don't have to.  You want to go solo a team sized spawn, you go right ahead.  You know your character better than I do.  If it works, great; I still get the XP, drops, and inf you generate.  If not, it's not my job to teleport you out of there and resurrect you.  Want to put pets in the sewer door?  Fine.  Using a choke point is a good strategy, and their HP are even more disposable than mine.  Want to immobilize everything immediately?  Well, that's controller stuff, and even God doesn't know how it all works.  I assume there's some kind of plan there. 

 

Finally, there's the likelihood that you have the best chance to live through any fiasco your teammates bring about.  This helps you be philosophical about it all. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Heraclea
run on sentence

[Ananke]

I'm really glad that my petless MM is valid.

[Mopery]

There are so many creative people who play this game, so many great character concepts, stories, costumes, and power choices. Spend your time working on your characters and playstyle, and let others do their own thing. You are not the best player ever, and I'm not either. That's not even a thing in this game, really, and this is a game. Have fun or log out. When a player asks for help, that's the time to give your opinion on how an AT/Powerset should play, or what powers you think are the best in whatever set they've chosen. Just because you can't figure out how to make a powerset or AT work for you doesn't mean someone else can't figure it out. Play your game, let others play theirs. This game isn't difficult enough to require such standards for 95%(or more) of the content.

 

There really aren't many TF's/Trials in this game that require a well built team, where careful consideration is given to what exactly will be needed to complete the task at hand(Aggro management, buffs, debuffs, damage, etc). Single AT TF's and Trials happen all the time, they're fun and can be somewhat challenging depending on which TF/Trials you are doing and what AT. Regular missions don't require much thought at all for team composition, unless you're doing them at +4 and half the team or more is Sidekicked.

 

There are proper ways of letting players know if you're picky about what kind of players you want on your team, what powersets you want or don't want on your team, and what objective you have for the team(speed, casual, badge attempts, etc.). There are also improper ways of going about it, like just saying "you're doing X TF lfm, pst" without mentioning your standards, and then kicking players who have powersets or ATs that you don't want on your team when you could have saved everyone time by mentioning it during recruitment.

 

Case in point: a player was leading an ITF a few weeks back, and simply stated "ITF lfm, pst for invite". I sent a polite tell, got invited, and upon arrival in Cimerora was promptly kicked from the team with no explanation. I messaged the leader and asked why I was kicked. The response was "I don't like Storm". They had wasted my time and didn't even give me the opportunity to alt to another character, or explain that I had KB->KD procs slotted in all the "problematic" powers. I did what I always do in situations where another player is extremely rude to me and/or wastes my time: I added them to my Global Ignore list and One-Starred them with an explanation of what happened.

 

I don't like One-Starring other players, and I don't like adding players to my Global Ignore list. This is a pretty good community overall, but when a player proves themself to be an immature jerk with a small mind and a poor understanding of the game I won't hesitate to remove them from my game world. I don't hate these players, hatred is too strong an emotion to waste on people I don't like.

[DSorrow]

The good thing about CoH is that you really have to try to make a team / character that just doesn't work. I've had teammates who played /Rad without any of the debuff toggles, /Empathy with just the heals, Corruptors with none of their secondary and so on, but usually it doesn't really matter. Most of the time I'll just 3 star the player with "questionable skills" note or something similar so I can avoid teaming with them in content where builds might be impactful.

 

However, if someone is playing their character "wrong" in the sense that they're disruptive to the team (e.g. excessive KB) or promising something they can't deliver (e.g. Tank without taunt or mez protect), I won't hesitate to let them know.

[Crowcus Pocus]

Two months ago, I have played with this energy blaster who was actually slotted for +KB on a few of his attacks. I was playing my Ice/Ice Tanker and the other two members were a Storm/DP and a Spines/Something scrapper.

 

You can tell it was bound to be a mess. The blaster and the stormy loved their chaotic toons, KB'ing foes out of paragon island, while the spines scrapper struggled to find a nice pack to feed his AoE lust.

 

Me... well, I played all sorts of weird builds back on live, so I didn't mind at all. We had a chat for a few mins and we decided how we should do things in a way that is fun for everyone. I suggested they could wait a few seconds before engaging, so I could herd and find some place where they could knock the mobs into corners while the scrapper would be happy that everything was packed nicely and waiting for his AoEs.

 

It ended up being a fun and effective team. We consistently cleared +2/8 on lvl 35ish characters. I don't recall any deaths either, except for one disgusting carnie mission that we ended up stealthing.

 

 

[justicebeliever]

4 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

I know anything I say wont change this faulty way of thinking... 

 

...But let me just be blunt in saying that when a player hears this or gets this kind of reaction (as in "why do people keep quitting the team when I bring X character") from enough other players, they'll realize, eventually, no matter how much you wish to shield them from the hard, cold reality against them, that the problem is in fact in their lap. ...And they will be all the more angry at all the dishonest, patronizing people around them, even if they *are* actually too soft to handle reality.

 

People do, in fact, play their characters the wrong way, and when this happens, they deserve to be told the truth, in a straightforward manner. You say otherwise, but I know every single one of you here knows this is the truth, because I know you've all teamed with at least one Gravity Controller that puts the Troll in Controller, when they clearly don't mean to. There is no easy solution here, while you worry about hurting their feelings and scorn players who wish to correct them, you completely miss something obvious: That you're disrespecting the player in error by treating them like they're some combination of incapable of learning, too soft to face criticism and/or prefer a hugbox to reality.

I could be wrong, but this felt like more of a "build" conversation rather than playstyle.  

 

1.) I do agree that there is room in the game for all sorts of concept characters and there isn't a wrong concept...You might not mesh well with someone else's concept, but that's already been said here, that the issue might be "we aren't meant to play together", not "you built your AT wrong".  Almost all AT's can contribute to a team successfully...maybe not to the degree you want...Maybe not enough for a "Master of" Badge...but they can contribute...If people ask for advice, give it...but if someone builds a Medbot or doesn't take a travel power, it's not wrong...

 

2.) I do agree that there are "bad" playstyles...People who draw more aggro routinely than they (or especially the team) can handle is not good.  People who don't engage in combat and support the team are not playing right.  They should be told in a courteous manner, "Hey, can you let the [tanker/brute/MM pets] go in first?", or "Let's pull in a smaller crowd instead of charging in"...If they don't want to listen, it's up to the team to decide how to handle it...

 

3.) I think there is also room for advice that can be given regarding enhancements and slotting...If a player is constantly faceplanting you may want to suggest they slot more Health, or if they are constantly out of endurance, they may need to slot more Stamina, or a few End Reduction...

[MrAxe]

My super, uber 'inf is no object' build will not feature tough or weave. I've tested it and it works. Its been in the back of my mind though how others may react due to the fighting pool being considered essential to a lot of Tanks. I'm not worried about it. I just reckon there's a chance it will come up.

Edited August 26, 2019 by MrAxe

[Myrmidon]

5 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

When I pug TFs I tend to give a speech along the lines of " I dont micromanage. I trust each of you to do what you do to the best of your abilities, all I ask is dont afk inside maps if you need an extended afk to deal with something in RL. The only things that will get someone kicked off a TF team are constantly complaining. side seat leading, or trash talking another player openly. If someone has a serious issue with another in group PM me and explain to me the issue and I will try to smooth it over.  If someone is eating dirt often its because they are going off on their owna nd biting off more then they can chew because those that stay close to me are as safe as can be or worst case veng fodder to empower me and the team.

 

Dirt nappers that seek advice will get it, those who dont want it will likely not be making my list and given priority in future tfs I run.

 

But I dont hate on less adept players. If I did Id be hating on everyone. I reserve that view almost solely for those who think blasters are squishy. Get behind me tanks and brutes this blaster will protect you with the best form of defense which is laying waste with impunity at the speed of thought. No time for building fury, and nothing left to be taunting. But dont worry ill grab a cuppa when we reach an AV or Gm and let you all have some fun and feel useful;) be back in two shakes. What the thing is still alive I thought you some kind of bad arse brute!

Squishies...

[Pyriold]

If any player wants to play their toon in a less than optimal way, for RP reasons or just for giggles, that's obviously fine. Some of those guys make up for it by being funny in chat or they really want to prove their ideas. I like it.

 

But sometimes suboptimal behaviour is not due to these reasons. Sometimes it's just a noob who doesnt know anything. Why should i take that status protection toggle on my tanker? So, when i see things like that, i offer advice. What's wrong with that?

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, MrAxe said:

My super, uber 'inf is no object' build will not feature tough or weave. I've tested it and it works. Its been in the back of my mind though how others may react due to the fighting pool being considered essential to a lot of Tanks. I'm not worried about it. I just reckon there's a chance it will come up.

+1 Influence for using “reckon” in a sentence.

[Chuckers]

1 hour ago, Pyriold said:

So, when i see things like that, i offer advice. What's wrong with that?

Nothing. I will ALWAYS listen to advice, as long as it's couched as advice and not as "Hey you dumb S*, why aren't you using X and Y?"  (I'm not saying you do that. I'm just making a point). I have some characters I am very good at playing and some that, well, I enjoy but are definitely sub-optimal. 

[DSorrow]

2 hours ago, MrAxe said:

My super, uber 'inf is no object' build will not feature tough or weave. I've tested it and it works. Its been in the back of my mind though how others may react due to the fighting pool being considered essential to a lot of Tanks. I'm not worried about it. I just reckon there's a chance it will come up.

Frankly, anyone who would unpromptedly criticize a build that works is an idiot whose opinion in that particular context doesn't really matter much. Do most Tank builds take Tough? Yeah. Is it a requirement? Hell no, with set bonuses you can be several orders of magnitude tougher without Tough (heh) than you ever could with an SO build that incorporates it, and the latter is what the game is balanced around. If it was mez protection or a taunt aura, then it would make sense to take the initiative and point it out.

 

This is coming from someone who actually spends time looking at teammates' builds. I'd probably question any melee character not having the Fighting pool only because I always take it, but if they had no problem surviving I would just stop caring.

[mousestalker]

I tend to approach other characters with a wait and see approach. Are they friendly? Is what they are doing working? And is what they are doing compatible with what I am doing? I've had less problem with novelty characters than with cookie cutter characters who do not know what to do. In my experience when some one makes unique power choices or uses they have a goal in mind which means they are thinking.

 

My last encounter with a sub-par player was a tank in a pug tf. He had all the appropriate powers and they probably were slotted correctly. What he didn't do was tank. He was the most timid tank I've seen since CoH came back. This was at level 35. My expectations are that by that level you should have some idea of how to play. Give me a blapper or a pet free MM any day of the week over a pure coward.

 

#endrant

Edited August 26, 2019 by mousestalker

[PaxArcana]

10 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

People do, in fact, play their characters the wrong way,

... you are exactly the poster child of "MY WAY OR YOU'RE WRONG" that this thread was aimed at.  Also, you completely missed the point.

 

6 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

I could be wrong, but this felt like more of a "build" conversation rather than playstyle.  

This is exactly correct.

 

Behaviors, like running ahead, aggroing adds, etc - those are, and can be explicitly labelled, as "wrong".

 

Builds are, at worst, "unusual" - like the "Petless MM" mentioned above.  Personally, I'd look at that and think "Why the heck not just play a Corruptor or Defender" ... but I would never tell the person, "you're playing Mastermind wrong".  I would ask them why they chose a Petless MM, instead of a Corruptor or a Defender.  If their reason suggests they just made a poor choice (for example, they just wanted to do buffs/debuffs and didn't understand that Defenders and Corruptors do them at least as well, plus have better HP and attacks), I'll offer advice that might improve their enjoyment of the game.  But if they say something like "I wanted to see if it could be done and still be fun" ...?  Rock on, you brave player, you.  Rock on.

If someone is having trouble with accuracy, or being mezzed all the time, then sure ... talk to them, make suggestions.  But still, don't say "you're doing it wrong".  That only puts them on the defensive, and your advice is less likely to be taken well.  Instead, offer advice.  Suggest slotting more Accuracy, picking up the mez protection power they skipped, and so forth.  Explain why those things will help.

Just, don't start off with "you're doing _____ wrong".

 

...

 

This thread arose, because I was told by someone on these forums that "I was doing Mastermind wrong", when I blithely asserted that my Mastermind wouldn't be using up his Endurance bar during a mission, once his pets were all out and Equip'd/Upgraded.  Keep in mind, on Live I played that exact build to the level cap, and .... yeah, aside from re-summoning bit at the door, I used little or no Endurance throughout entire missions.

He was Robotics / Force Field, with plenty of toggles but little use for clicky powers.  Even Deflection and Insulation shields, I didn't even always need, not once I hit level 32, not against most enemies.  (And now that those are AoE, that will be even more true than it was back on Live.)

But, noooooo ... "playing Mastermind wrong".

(They later backpedaled into "other than /FF or /Sonic", but they still held to if you're not mostly using your secondary you are playing MM wrong.)

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by PaxArcana

[XaoGarrent]

2 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

... you are exactly the poster child of "MY WAY OR YOU'RE WRONG" that this thread was aimed at.  Also, you completely missed the point.

I missed no point, your point was wrong, and you proved me correct about my initial assumption. Trying to reason with you might be a waste of time, but trying to reason with others, other that actually want to learn, isn't. And yes, those people need to be told they're doing something wrong. You're an immensely elitist, disrespectful person and you don't even realize it because the very concept that this kind of thing could go in both directions evades you. That's what *you* missed before you even made the thread.

 

5 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

I could be wrong, but this felt like more of a "build" conversation rather than playstyle. 

That's fine. I made no distinction, because the OP didn't in their initial post. Despite what they say post mortum, they said play wrong in the OP, which is non-specific and applies to both usage and build. Substitute the gravity troller example to the tank with no toggles (admittedly less common now that Stamina is inherent) and my point stay the same.

[PaxArcana]

17 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I missed no point, your point was wrong, and you proved me correct about my initial assumption.

Yep.  Either you missed it entirely, or you've proved yourself to be who this was aimed at.  Or both, both is also possible.

 

17 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

they said play wrong in the OP

I said, "play an archetype wrong".  Forgive me if I thought even the most brain-dead fool could understand that as referring to Build - to the player's choice of powersets and powers, and prioritization of which powers to emphasize during play.

 

19 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Substitute the gravity troller example to the tank with no toggles (admittedly less common now that Stamina is inherent) and my point stay the same.

Yup.  There we are: the Build Elitism on full display.

 

I don't know why anyone would play that sort of character.  But I don't have to know, or even understand, to decide not to be a dick about it.  If I saw someone playing a Tank with none of their toggles, I would not say you are playing Tanks wrong.  I wouldn't assume they were an idiot, nor that they were naive.  I would instead ask them hey, how come you didn't take any of your toggles?  If their answer indicated a lack of knowledge, I would then explain why those toggles are useful and why they might want to take them.

On the other hand, if they sounded like they knew what they were doing - maybe they've done it for the challenge.  Maybe they just finished a series of DFB runs, wanted more attacks during that, and are planning on getting all the toggle defenses in the next half-dozen levels.  Maybe they're testing a theory about something or other.  I don't know ... and until I knew their reason(s), I would have no rational basis for telling them they were wrong to do it.

...
 

It's about the approach, Xao.

And you are serving as a textbook example of the wrong approach: insisting someone is wrong, without first asking why they've chosen to do something in that way.  Thank you for that, at least.

[tidge]

10 hours ago, RubberDougie said:

Every AT should fit in leadership!!!

Is this the face-planting wannabe blapper who criticized my lvl 29 Widow for not taking the Leadership pool so that she could tank the x8 mobs with capped defenses?

[mousestalker]

All this reminds me of my early days with Repeat Offenders. When I told some friends I was playing in an all kin/ defender team they all told me that we were doomed and we were doing it wrong and that a defenders job was to be a passive little heal bot. That was some of the most fun I had on Live and it was made better by how wrong the critics were.

 

Eccentrics of Paragon, Shine On You Little Glow Worms!