Traps tweaks and changes.

[Doomguide2005]

      Acid Mortar - having two out is easy.  More against a static target is doable. 90 sec recharge, 60 sec duration. It fires at one target and debuffs up to 16 foes in an AoE (8ft rad.) around that target.  The range to that initial target can be 100ft.  The potential resist debuff, without a -resist proc, is 26.6 per mortar.  The debuff lasts 20 sec, the mortar will fire every 6 sec.  Get the spawn(s) to bunch up (corner pull, at the edge of caltrops, etc) and the relatively small AoE will likely get everyone.

     Seeker Drones - trivial energy damage, random mag 2 stun (25%), not at all insignificant damage debuff.  If both hit it's an AoE debuff of over 50% to damage.  They also carry a pretty healthy To Hit debuff of -6.65% and a perception debuff.  All debuffs last 40 sec.

     Part of the problem is the multi-function and complex nature of several of Traps' traps makes how and what they do difficult to suss out (see the above two) unless you either spend a lot of time testing or digging thru sources like CoD.  They are not just a pseudo pet patch you drop.   Combine that with less Traps players than say Storm the knowledge of what and how those traps do their thing is not as widespread as how Freezing Rain works.  And there's still plenty of threads with questions in them about FR.

     

[arcane]

But to be fair, 8’ radius or less on anything feels lame once you’ve tasted that 10+’ life.

[Doomguide2005]

41 minutes ago, arcane said:

But to be fair, 8’ radius or less on anything feels lame once you’ve tasted that 10+’ life.

     Yeah it's small and even a small change in radius would be a much larger area covered.  Then again you can get two out and placed and cover a much larger area that way.  Would i object no but it's not strictly needed either unlike Time Bomb improvements for which the word need is not nearly as much of an overstatement.

 

There's also the fact it fires multiple times.  While you can't target a specific foe it will tend to hit multiple targets each generating their own AoE which while likely overlapping probably also cover a larger area as the mob moves around or is killed off.

 

Edit:  as an example of the complexity I mentioned I've only guesses of how AM selects targets

Edited May 5, 2021 by Doomguide2005

[oedipus_tex]

I kind of like Traps as is but Time Bomb should probably create some kind of aoe patch effect in the style of Oil Slick or Burn patches so even if the timing is slightly off you don't completely miss out on the damage. 

[Communistpenguin]

If any change is made to Web grenade, I would suggest making it something like a "Grenades" power, with the switch ammo mechanic. Ammo options could be Web Grenade, Stun Grenade, and Regular Grenades. Or maybe just make Web Grenade a small aoe? I like the idea of making Mine into a throwable mine field. Maybe give Seeker Drones a blinding component? Time Bomb needs to be completely overhauled. Maybe Move Minefield up to the final power, and create a Bean Bag cannon similar to acid Mortar in that its a placeable pet, but make it do stuns. 

[kikyoku]

A lot of the issues in traps are due to a lack of direction. Is it DPS? The top three powers deal AoE damage, two of them are Superior and Extreme. Is it Control? It has an AoE semi-hold, a slow, and an immobilize. Is it Support? It has a regen boost, a defense boost, and a variety of debuffs.

 

Many of the decisions in the past to balance traps involved nerfing the damage, since Time Bomb was too powerful for a support set. But the main issue is at the core of the set's powers: they are slow.

 

If you are solo, you can spend a full minute setting traps, and then waiting to recover Endurance, and then pull the enemy group to you. But in that time, you could have just fought them normally. I've gone through the whole process, mistimed Time Bomb, and then just pummeled them with attacks anyway (on a Traps/Water Defender). Caltrops + Poison trap just locks them in a debuff field and helpless while I work my way through. FFG and Triage Beacon keep me alive, but no better than, say, Plants or Force Field, and those are more consistent.

 

If you are on a team, you have to go a spawn ahead to lay out traps, but good luck timing Time Bomb correctly. The other placeables can't be done at the group in question, since they trigger in presence. It seems like a lot of this is left over from old-school CoH, where pulling enemies out in small groups was a real strategy. I have yet to be on a team in Homecoming that didn't just steamroll 99% successfully.

 

So Trip Mine and Acid Mortar are fine on paper since you can double down, but other builds are just running in and wrecking face in the time it takes you to prep. If, for instance, Storm Summoning required you to hang around for 30 seconds while you whipped up a good cold front before activating Snow Storm, no one would use it.

 

I'm not saying Traps can't be "The Solo Defender Build", or the "Slow and Steady Build", but the slowness needs to be either mitigated or made up for. Time Bomb is a Nuke that takes 20 seconds? Fine, make it drop everything in the spawn. Otherwise you could just do it normally. You can stack 3 Trip Mines and ruin an NPC's day? Fine, but make it go fast or the Blaster is gonna snipe them first.

[Replacement]

19 hours ago, Arbegla said:

 

I guess I don't see the definition of 'trap' the same way you do, so I'm having a hard time seeing that angle. I see a 'trap' as any device, stratagem, trick, or the like for catching a person unawares. It doesn't have a location aspect to it at all, just that the person triggering it doesn't know it is there. Using my definition, the only powers that really fall into that strict definition is caltrops, Poison Trap, Trip Mine, and Time Bomb. Everything else is very noticeable, and/or able to be targeted.

Expanding to use the definition of powers that directly affect enemies while regarding position has you include Triage Beacon and Acid Mortar, but still leaves Web Grenade, Seeker Drones, and FFG as powers that have no regard for position. Seeker Drones will actually follow you around (though they are kinda slow) until they detect an enemy, and then they explode.

The FFG isn't really a single target bubble buff, and other like powers (things that mirror Dispersion Bubble) are all toggles. Both Sonic, and Force Field have the same power as a toggle. Allowing the FFG to still get destroyed, like a Prestige Pet, still gives it a 'trap' like feel of being a secondary object that is providing the buff, without it just spontaneously exploding at the wrong time. Like I said, if the FFG blows up, and then you get mez'ed, you can't resummon it right away, and the 'notice' that it is about to expire isn't very clear. The animation itself isn't bad, its more the 'mid-combat experience' that I'm worried about. Another thing to consider, is that the Sky Raiders Force Field Generator has no duration, its a permanent pet. Why are the players version self-destructing?

 

All fair. To me, everything else supports the tactics of those more direct booby traps (in design moreso than in typical play) but it's super ok that we have different reads on the set.  But I do feel updates to the set should make an attempt to emphasize an actual "trapper" playstyle, including all related tactics.  

 

So this is why I propose things like giving Triage the Faraday Cage treatment, where it may as well be mobile, but still keeps the playstyle themes intact.  It still achieves the goal of being more mobile, without sacrificing on the theme any more than ffg already does (it also frees up more power budget for other tweaks).

 

Sidenote: location stealth on Triage would be super interesting for orchestrating Ambushes, especially with AM being unafraid of aggroing new groups while you lie in wait.

[Arbegla]

I see traps as a jack of all trades, master of none powerset. It had a little control, a little buff, a lot of debuff (which blends nicely with the buffs), and some damaging components.

 

In practice however, the damage components (Trip Mine and Time Bomb) are hard to use in a group, and very hit or miss even solo, as you can set up a death zone, and still have to mop up mobs. On a Mastermind especially, they simply aren't worth the time or endurance to use, as you have an entire primary for damage, and the interruptible aspects make the powers really hard to use in the heat of battle.

 

Having said that, the complimentary nature of the buffs and debuffs can't be overlooked. Triage Beacon providing +regen, Seeker Drones providing -tohit and -dmg, Acid Mortar providing -def and -res, Poison trap providing -regen and FFG giving +def and mez protection allows you to affect multiple sides of the combat formula in ways that other sets don't really have access to. -resistance and -damage have a very neat interaction as they boost the others effectiveness, making the combined debuffs much more powerful than their individual sums. The +regen allows you to passively heal up the severely reduced damage the Seeker drones caused, and the combination of -tohit and +def gives you a very nice cushion, before considering any other powers you have. You also have protection from the big Mez powers. The -regen from Poison trap will floor any AV/GMs regen, even with their massive resistance, and the -resisance makes all your attacks hit hard. The ability to stack the debuffs further, by having multiple Acid Mortars (with enough recharge, and careful use of Burnout, you can have 4 Acid Mortars out), and multiple Seeker Drones (the debuff value is PER drone, so you inherently get double the value just using it, and the debuff lasts a long time, so if you can get your recharge down, you can 4x stack it) makes the set have a really high upper bound on its debuff power. Its a very complimentary set, but in order to understand what it is actually doing for you, you need to do some research into the combat formulas, and how different buffs/debuffs interact with each other, which most people just don't do.

 

Because the set really doesn't look that powerful at the surface, I can understand people skipping certain powers that seem lackluster (Seeker Drones come to mind, and I thought I saw someone that actually skipped Acid Mortar, Triage Beacon is another frequently skipped power) but once you understand what the powers do, and how they interact, it can really make a huge difference. The set also works amazingly with minimal proc-ing, as you can put a Panacea +hp/end proc in Triage Beacon, and have it almost act like a HoT with some additional endurance boosting, Acid Mortar can take up to 2 -resistance procs (if you're a MM) and we all love proc-trops. The FFG is also a great place for the scaling +resistance set, or a LOTG mule. 

 

 

[Herotu]

On 11/12/2019 at 1:15 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

The main issue with traps is that the game is way too mobile for the powers in it. They rely on setting up a fort and having enemies constantly around you, but we go from mob to mob they dont keep coming to us.

 

Adding more mobility to stuff like the triage beacon or throwing the bombs would be great.

Is the mobility due to powercreep that's occurred since the game was new?

 

I remember that many encounters had to be prepared for, with dedication to repeatedly buffing (boring!), herding (fun for tanks) and suchlike.

[Arbegla]

29 minutes ago, Herotu said:

Is the mobility due to powercreep that's occurred since the game was new?

 

I remember that many encounters had to be prepared for, with dedication to repeatedly buffing (boring!), herding (fun for tanks) and suchlike.

 

I swear I'm going to write up a guide on how to play traps with mobility.

 

It can easily be a stationary set, but there is only 1 (maybe 2, I can't remember if Time Bomb is interruptible) power that you can't 'toe-bomb' with, and 'toe-bombing' can be done as your opening move. Heck, my favorite thing to do, is throw Seeker Drones into a group, then while the Drones soak the alpha strike, I toe-bomb a Poison Trap, leading right into Acid Mortar. By the time the Poison Trap triggers, the Drones have exploded so any mobs that aren't held, are debuffed, and then I'm already dropping Acid Mortar, which fires immediately, and debuffs the group of mobs that are now choking/vomiting. If I'm in a group, the group has probably cleared most of the mobs, and thus the Acid Mortar is only targeting the remaining boss, and I move onto the next group, letting my teammates mop up whatever is left. If I'm solo, I play a Bot/Traps mastermind, so my pets are clearing things pretty quickly already. I might drop a Caltrops on top of the Acid Mortar, just so mobs don't try to melee it, giving it some time to get the debuffs off, but all in all tactics don't change, though on a team I'm probably not sitting in bodyguard mode the whole time, so its faster to kill things.

 

The initial hold of Poison Trap is autohit in a 25ft radius, its mag 3, and the pulse fires right after the cloud forms, which can stack with the initial hit, so there is a good chance you can hold the boss in the group as well. Its better than a controllers AoE Hold, as the recharge is also fast enough that you can do this every single group. And that isn't counting the 3-4 second forced animation of the vomiting that Poison Trap can cause. It might not be a 'hold' but the mobs can't do anything else but empty their stomachs during that animation, so its just as powerful.

 

Yes, Trip Mine and Time Bomb can be used to create a death zone, but until they give /traps the /device treatment, I honestly think those powers are best skipped on a Mastermind. A defender/corruptor/controller might get more mileage out of them, but from what I've seen so far, they are pretty lackluster powers in general.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Arbegla

[arcane]

Yeah, Traps is plenty playable with mobility and toe-bombing, but I do tend to just have more fun with the set when using it to set up bigger death traps - so I tend to play it pretty slowly with long setups when I’m soloing and only speed up on teams. Wormhole or Fold Space synergy makes this particularly satisfying because you can wipe out entire spawns including bosses (alas only level 53 though) with one AoE TP if you give yourself a bit of setup time.

[Judasace]

I've played traps to 50 a few times - Traps/Bots MM on live and BR/Traps Corr on HC. The only time I don't like playing it is on "Speed TFs" which I usually avoid anyways. There are some times that it isn't the best, but on missions where you're going to be standing in one place fighting for a while - lke at the end of certain TFs/SFs, it's really quite good.

[JayboH]

Acid Mortar is one of the best powers in the set.  Perhaps the reason it has a lower debuff is because the thing fires 10 times in an AOE that also does damage.  You can proc that thing up and that's 10 shots loaded with like say 5 procs in it.

 

Personally even though I wouldn't mind this set getting some love, I would much rather have time spent on Poison.

[kikyoku]

So I've noticed a lot of opinions are based on what AT you are playing, which makes sense.

 

I have a Defender, which makes a lot of the DPS redundant. Not that I don't love luring enemies into a death trap, but in the time it takes to set up, I could just use my secondary. Defenders (and presumably Corruptors) benefit most from the buffs and aggro management. I saw someone say they use the Seeker Drones to eat alpha, which is a wild idea.

 

Controllers I would guess are the ones benefiting from the DPS the most.

 

Masterminds have probably the best position here, since their pets can take aggro while they run around and plant traps. They can make the best use of the set in general.

 

That does speak a lot to the sets versatility. The problem with being Jack of All Trades is that anything you can do, someone else does better. On a team of 8 there are very few situations where Traps contributes meaningfully. It shines in long, static AV fights, as Judasace mentioned. It could also be good in situations where the team is getting overwhelmed, as it is very good at stopping anything that moves.

 

The problem in the first scenario is that it's not very good against AVs themselves. The effect of the debuffs shouldn't be understated, but everything in the set is focused on groups. That isn't a flaw, per se, because it is pretty good at handling ambushes and adds.

 

The second scenario is kind of limited. First of all, that's what Controllers are for, to limit aggro until the team moves on. Most control sets have AoE shutdown abilities that can buy a few extra seconds. So if you're a controller, traps is redundant, and if you're not, a controller could do it better. Second, it can't do it in reaction to the aggro, you have to predict that another group is coming and come up with a strategy to halt it. Because of the way NPC groups move, you are very likely to have one random minion blow your motion-based traps before the main group reaches it, and you don't have the eternity it would take to set the time bomb after the fight starts.

 

In the second situation especially, you would pretty much be better off sticking to your team and providing your faster support, as well as DPS/Control.

 

And something I would like to reiterate, because I feel like we're talking across purposes, is that Traps is not a DPS set. An ability doing lots of damage is not necessarily a good thing here. That's Devices. I love using it to solo and I think the damage output makes it unique as a support, but the main focus needs to be auxiliary to killing things, ie. "How does this make the team survive longer and the enemies die faster?"

[Arbegla]

12 minutes ago, kikyoku said:

The problem in the first scenario is that it's not very good against AVs themselves. The effect of the debuffs shouldn't be understated, but everything in the set is focused on groups. That isn't a flaw, per se, because it is pretty good at handling ambushes and adds.

 

I'm not sure we're playing the same set if you think that /traps isn't good against the AVs themselves.. /Traps has the most powerful -regen power in the game. Its twice as effective as /rads (Lingering Radiation is only -500% regen), and lasts 10 seconds longer, if you can keep the AV in the cloud, which web grenade lets you do, as AVs don't have much resistance to immobilize. -1000% regen means that even with AV resistance, you are going to floor their regen, with 1 power. Then Acid Mortar stacks if you have multiple out. So the more you have, the more you can multiply the debuffs, and the MM version at least takes two -res procs, giving you an insane upper bound on -resistance debuff. With burnout, you can get 4 Acid Mortars going.. that's before you consider the -damage from the Seeker drones lowering the damage you take (and the -resistance making the -damage even more powerful)

[kikyoku]

Y'all are schooling me so hard on traps.

 

I'm starting to think the biggest flaw in the set is the descriptions. This set plays so differently from everything else but allows for unique strategies.

 

I do stand by most of my initial tweaks though, and I think the set needs updating to keep up with the faster pace the game is at now.

[tidge]

A couple years later, and I will add that my MM prefers that the FFG is a summonable (limited life) object as opposed to a toggle. I wouldn't want him to have to spend the Endurance tax to maintain it, and aside from some occasionally issues with paths/corners it will pretty much stay with me. Keeping it as a summon makes it feel much more like the rest of the (Mastermind) secondary.

[arcane]

Poison Trap alone makes the set actually one of the best against AV’s since it does easily perma *1000% -regen*.