Negative Repel

[Zepp]

I know there is a lot of discussion about KB v KD, about how these powers work (or don't) within team contexts (few people talk about the solo efficacy of the matter). That being said, there is another mechanic that I thought I would like to ask about, and that is repel. In particular, in the context of the Gravitic Melee set proposal. I was wondering if there is resistance to repel, and if there is not, whether it could have a negative value (allowing it to pull rather than push)...

[Haijinx]

Energy Aura has Mag 10 Repel Status protection.  So resistance is a thing.  No idea if it can be made to pull vs push though.  

 

 

[Steampunkette]

As it stands in the engine -Repel is just no repel. Once it hits 0 it stops interpreting it as anything. -50 repel mags are the same as 0 repel mags.

 

It would need to be coded from the ground up as "Pull". And would be intensive. 

[Zepp]

I thought it might, just floating an idea out there...

[Redlynne]

49 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

As it stands in the engine -Repel is just no repel. Once it hits 0 it stops interpreting it as anything. -50 repel mags are the same as 0 repel mags.

 

It would need to be coded from the ground up as "Pull". And would be intensive. 

As Steampunkette says, there was a ... premature optimization ... made with Repel (and Knockdown, and Restistances, and Mez in general, and ... you get the idea) such that there is no "pull" counterpart to the "push" of Repel.  The closest you can get to approximating a "pull" would be extremely(!) clunky(!) ... and would probably require doing something completely off the wall bonkers, such as doing rapid succession SHORT range (like 1ft per activation) Teleports that move the $Target closer to the Attractor, and do it repeatedly for however long it takes to draw $Targets in closer ... so as to make it look like they're being "dragged" towards a central location (almost certainly a pseudo-pet) rather than being "pushed" away from it.  And to make matters worse, that would need to be done via some sort of Grant Power status to every Foe within aura radius (subject to Max Targets limits, of course).

 

I think that you can already see how this would start getting excessively kludgy in a big way in a big hurry ... hence why there's no mechanic in City of Heroes that supports this kind of functionality.

[Zepp]

How about an aura with a 10' radius that has repel towards you? Kinda like Hurricane in reverse...

[Redlynne]

24 minutes ago, Zepp said:

How about an aura with a 10' radius that has repel towards you? Kinda like Hurricane in reverse...

DOESN'T.  WORK.  THAT.  WAY.

 

My "authority" on that subject was the Devs at the 2011 AND 2012 Player Summit.  They addressed the issue directly.

[Steampunkette]

Repel is a radiating affect outward from the creature generating the repel effect. It cannot be reversed with a -Repel effect because -Repel is 'Less Repel' until it hits 0. When it reaches 0 it becomes 'No Repel'. When it hits -1 it's still 'No Repel' because there was never a 'pull' effect created.

 

You cannot put "Repel" behind enemies or 'on the other side of them' to mimic the effect because the game doesn't have a 'Behind' function tied to PCs or NPCs.

 

You would need to create a separate type of effect "Pull" which mimics Repel's function but in reverse... it's -possible-, but it would be very time consuming, Particularly what happens when the NPC being pulled reaches the player. Does it push the player? Rotate around in a tight orbit? What if there's 12 other NPCs already crowding the PC? Does he become trapped in a 360 degree orb of NPCs?

 

It has problems, and it would take a lot of work to create the effect. But there's no way to use Repel to mimic it.

 

[Tath99]

I'm just curious:  What about Knock-Up?  What makes up, up?

 

(I understand Knock-Up to be a separate coded effect than knockback(?))

 

What about game-world gravity / falling code?  Could an NPC be coded to 'fall' in a specific direction for X amount of time?

 

 

 

 

[Leogunner]

18 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

You would need to create a separate type of effect "Pull" which mimics Repel's function but in reverse... it's -possible-, but it would be very time consuming, Particularly what happens when the NPC being pulled reaches the player. Does it push the player? Rotate around in a tight orbit? What if there's 12 other NPCs already crowding the PC? Does he become trapped in a 360 degree orb of NPCs?

 

It has problems, and it would take a lot of work to create the effect. But there's no way to use Repel to mimic it.

 

What!? No!  Obviously, the effect, when it reaches it's ultimate state, would end up with mobs on top of, or as closely as possible to on top of, the emanation source.  That would be a problem if the player couldn't move because they'd be stuck inside another mob or the mob being unable to act properly in such a state so you simply give the emanation source a close range aura (7-10ft range) that grants immunity to this "pull". 

 

This is going off of the assumption that powers can't have multiple range zones (i.e. a power that has a max range of 60ft and minimum range of 8ft therefore it shuts down upon reaching min range) so granting immunity at a certain range would be the work around.

 

I still don't understand why people don't just push for a ranged placed pet that pulses repel.  One could duplicate a kind of "pull" if you place it behind the target but it would only function to the maximum range of the pet's spherical pulse.  You can also duplicate a purview of "jedi force" abilities by pushing, pulling or sending targets sideways and such.

[Steampunkette]

47 minutes ago, Tath99 said:

I'm just curious:  What about Knock-Up?  What makes up, up?

 

(I understand Knock-Up to be a separate coded effect than knockback(?))

 

What about game-world gravity / falling code?  Could an NPC be coded to 'fall' in a specific direction for X amount of time?

Knock Up works because "Up" is not relative to the position of the model. Up is up. Down is down. If my character is laying down so their head is pointed 'south' and their feet are pointed 'north' they get thrown up in the air rather than 'up relative to the direction their head is pointing'

 

The X/Y/Z axes of the world aren't tied to characters. And a character can't be programmed to fall for a certain duration because object coding exists to create walkable surfaces. The second it reaches that surface the 'fall' ends.

[Zepp]

If Repel was worked into a 10' radius aura (event horizon) repelling towards the player with an 8-9' range, enemies would constantly be pushed towards the player without reaching the player. Because it would be an aura, it would be relative to the player, not to enemies. If negatives are null, then this seems the easiest way to create this effect.

[Steampunkette]

12 minutes ago, Zepp said:

If Repel was worked into a 10' radius aura (event horizon) repelling towards the player with an 8-9' range, enemies would constantly be pushed towards the player without reaching the player. Because it would be an aura, it would be relative to the player, not to enemies. If negatives are null, then this seems the easiest way to create this effect.

It cannot repel toward the player. "Toward the Player" is meaningless to the game's engine, for one thing, and repel doesn't work like that for another.

 

This is quite literally impossible, Zepp, without creating an entirely separate power function.

[biostem]

The best way to implement this, IMO, would be to have a power create a pseudo pet some distance away from you, that is pointed directly back at you and emanates a kb/repel toward you.  Make said pet invisible, and the net effect should be that enemies appear to be knocked or drawn toward you...

[Steampunkette]

26 minutes ago, biostem said:

The best way to implement this, IMO, would be to have a power create a pseudo pet some distance away from you, that is pointed directly back at you and emanates a kb/repel toward you.  Make said pet invisible, and the net effect should be that enemies appear to be knocked or drawn toward you...

So... Repel is a Radial Effect. Even when it's in a displaced power like Telekinesis.

 

Telekinesis puts a "Repel" effect in a circle around an NPC you pick and pushes that NPC away from you. Directly away from you. Any NPCs who get caught in the radius are also pushed -directly- away from you, but only relative to your current position. So NPCs slightly to the left and the right of the targeted NPC aren't pushed straight back, they're pushed back and left, or back and right, relative to the central NPC, because those are straight lines relative to your position.

 

If you created the Pseudopet at a distance and had it repel things 'toward you' it would need to provide a repel effect in a giant circle. And any NPC caught inside that circle would go away from the center of the circle (The Pseudopet's location) Again, relative to their position in relation to the pseudopet.

 

Which means enemies would go left and right of you, and even the enemy or enemies being pushed 'directly' toward you would continue to be pushed -beyond- you. Because there would be no way for the repel's area to have an explicit limit that is accurate to your position invariably, since it would need to be set before the power was activated.

 

And no. There's no way to put down a pseudopet that fires a cone towards you with repel in it. And even if there was, you'd still have all of the same problems (Left-right drift relative to the pseudopet, overshooting/undershooting based on the repel radius, etc)

 

It cannot be done without creating a new game mechanic called 'Pull' which would be a -massive- undertaking.

[HelenCarnate]

Does the Pseudopet have to take up the full circle, or can it be just a circle?  A Pseudopet that was a giant circle with nothing on the inside would push everything inside to the center.  After they got to the middle, they would be met with an equal repelling force from the other side. That of course would also push everything away on the outside of the circle however. 

 

And you should be able to make a Pseudopet spawn at a set distance away from you and cast a repel cone at the caster.  It may not be easy but is certainly possible and probably far easier than creating a new pull mechanic.  Now put say 12 of those at clock positions and all do the same thing and you have a circle (roughly) that pushes everything to the caster.  

 

It would have to be a short lived but strong repel to work.  If it lasted a while, the player being at the center would constantly be pushed around while the repel tried to force mobs into the spot they are standing in.

[Steampunkette]

6 minutes ago, HelenCarnate said:

Does the Pseudopet have to take up the full circle, or can it be just a circle?  A Pseudopet that was a giant circle with nothing on the inside would push everything inside to the center.  After they got to the middle, they would be met with an equal repelling force from the other side. That of course would also push everything away on the outside of the circle however. 

 

And you should be able to make a Pseudopet spawn at a set distance away from you and cast a repel cone at the caster.  It may not be easy but is certainly possible and probably far easier than creating a new pull mechanic.  Now put say 12 of those at clock positions and all do the same thing and you have a circle (roughly) that pushes everything to the caster.  

 

It would have to be a short lived but strong repel to work.  If it lasted a while, the player being at the center would constantly be pushed around while the repel tried to force mobs into the spot they are standing in.

Any creature has a point within the x/y/z axes of the game that it occupies. That point is where all emanations come from. 

 

And no. You cannot make a pseudo pet that targets it's caster with a cone. I asked Castle that question back in the day when describing a Speedster Blast powerset.

[Redlynne]

I count SEVEN times people have been told by Steampunkette and myself that THIS ... DOES ... NOT ... WORK.

 

Still waiting for people to accept the answer that's been repeatedly given, rather than just drop it on the floor (again) and pretend they didn't understand what they were just told.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

Any creature has a point within the x/y/z axes of the game that it occupies. That point is where all emanations come from. 

 

And no. You cannot make a pseudo pet that targets it's caster with a cone. I asked Castle that question back in the day when describing a Speedster Blast powerset.

Are you sure about that?  You're saying a pet can't cast a cone on the caster but I see no reason why they couldn't if pets can, indeed, cast cone powers.  I see that Necromancy's Lich pet has the power Tenebrous Tentacles which is a cone, right?

 

If you want to make the pet cast a cone on the summoner, you'd just need to code that as its only power.  A buff on the summoner and a repel to any foe between it an the summoner.

 

...or can pets also not cast targeted buffs?

 

23 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

I count SEVEN times people have been told by Steampunkette and myself that THIS ... DOES ... NOT ... WORK.

 

Still waiting for people to accept the answer that's been repeatedly given, rather than just drop it on the floor (again) and pretend they didn't understand what they were just told.

Well, I like to think creatively.  I don't just take people's words without some kind of evidence.  Not calling someone untrustworthy, but you might not have been looking for the same answers if we're just comparing hypothetical suggestions.

[Number Six]

Let me clear up a few things.

 

There are 3 relevant character attributes in the game engine: Knockback, Knockup, and Repel. These can have a numerical value added to them by power effects (what we tend to refer to as an 'attribmod').

 

Positive magnitude on these effects do exactly what they say -- the higher the magnitude the further the knock distance (or repel speed).

 

Negative magnitude on them produce no visible effect, but serve to counteract positive magnitude from other effects. This is how Knockback and mez protection function -- by starting you off at a negative number that must be pushed past to get the attribute above 0.

 

So that's why negative repel isn't a thing, because negative repel is actually repel protection.

 

That said, we don't need hacky pseuedopet workarounds. The Issue 25+ engine has a revamped powers system with a bunch of new features that have not yet been utilized by many, if any powers. One of features of the new framework is the ability for any effect (or mod) to take arbitrary extra parameters, which makes it easier to implement variations. There are plans for some point in the future to leverage that to add vectorized knockback and repel. That would take the form of an extra parameter on Knock and Repel effects that powers could use to set the direction of force to apply. The default of course would be along a line from the source to the target -- exactly how KB and Repel currently work. But there are a lot of possible options that could be set including a reversal of that, and various other vectors relative to that one, or to world space.

 

Such a feature would essentially make the Knockup attribute obsolete, as it would be redundant with Knock with a vector of straight up. One other interesting thing this would enable is the possibility of powers that deliver high-magnitude knockdown.

[Redlynne]

Insert World of Cardboard Speech here ...

[Zepp]

Thank you number six, you are not a number, you are a free man!

[Haijinx]

This is kind of cool.  And suggests a better option on the horizon than just converting KB to KD

[Steampunkette]

48 minutes ago, Number Six said:

Let me clear up a few things.

 

There are 3 relevant character attributes in the game engine: Knockback, Knockup, and Repel. These can have a numerical value added to them by power effects (what we tend to refer to as an 'attribmod').

 

Positive magnitude on these effects do exactly what they say -- the higher the magnitude the further the knock distance (or repel speed).

 

Negative magnitude on them produce no visible effect, but serve to counteract positive magnitude from other effects. This is how Knockback and mez protection function -- by starting you off at a negative number that must be pushed past to get the attribute above 0.

 

So that's why negative repel isn't a thing, because negative repel is actually repel protection.

 

That said, we don't need hacky pseuedopet workarounds. The Issue 25+ engine has a revamped powers system with a bunch of new features that have not yet been utilized by many, if any powers. One of features of the new framework is the ability for any effect (or mod) to take arbitrary extra parameters, which makes it easier to implement variations. There are plans for some point in the future to leverage that to add vectorized knockback and repel. That would take the form of an extra parameter on Knock and Repel effects that powers could use to set the direction of force to apply. The default of course would be along a line from the source to the target -- exactly how KB and Repel currently work. But there are a lot of possible options that could be set including a reversal of that, and various other vectors relative to that one, or to world space.

 

Such a feature would essentially make the Knockup attribute obsolete, as it would be redundant with Knock with a vector of straight up. One other interesting thing this would enable is the possibility of powers that deliver high-magnitude knockdown.

The amount of happy in me over this is OVER THE MOON.

 

I was wrong! I admit it, happily, and I will sing Leandro's praises to the stars.  This is wonderful and I eagerly await seeing some of these new mechanics that have been added!

Edited September 3, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Zepp]

oooh... vectored knockback,.. KB mag 4 to the left of caster 0.2s delay, KB mag 6 to the right of caster... TK may actually start to feel like TK... repel on hurricane being adjusted so it is at a 30 degree angle from horizontal so they are lifted slightly by the repel... Remove KB from Tornadoes and add a vertical repel to them... so many possibilities...