Forager

Lol... I'm saying that's precisely the reason NOT to mention it. The people mentioning it don't know either.

Dang... sorry. You think I'm talking about them irking me? I'm not. They don't. They're irrelevant to me personally. This type is fairly easy to dispute, argue against or dismiss. They are preventing lively, productive discussion because of their effect on the forum... on the other posters who might not have the ability or tools to do that.

They don't. I've consistently repeated that I'm suggesting guidance and coaching, opinions and suggestions, rather than rules. I've said it over and over, despite the intellectually dishonest claims otherwise. You've read, quoted and reacted to those posts.

If that's how you want to describe it, sure. It's a problem. I'm describing a problem. It's possible that something that isn't against a rule can still have a negative effect. Would it be helpful for you if I reiterated once again that I understand that you are allowed to do this? I feel I've said this to you a few times and you are just sort of rewording your... objection? I have explained myself to you specifically more than once, so maybe we can just move on? You are allowed. You're allowed. You are totally allowed... You don't have to tell me that again. I know that you're allowd. We ALL know you're allowed.

That's great general advice. It doesn't address the concern that I am raising, though. My concern is that a small, vocal minority is chasing away people who would like to engage in fun, lively and productive conversations about their ideas and suggestions. I believe that is something that can be improved. Reporting them is not a solution because, generally, they're not breaking any rules. They're just being pedantic and negative. If you made a rule against that, you'd be pretty busy. Ignoring them is not a solution because they will still have a negative impact on the forums. My proposed solution is guidance and coaching from leadership.

That is my target. That is the Idea Police. Their purpose is to say no. They start from there. It's a handful of posters who have demonstrated an easily discernible pattern. And I understand good faith, but the best faith that can be offered is that they don't know that what they're doing is obstructive, destructive... and just kinda dumb. That's why I started with the oft-repeated "dev ability" defense. Sometimes they lead with that when it's an obvious one (destructible environments, voice acting), but they always run there when they can't defend their objections (proc chances listed in-game). I think if a person they would believe would just say "yeah that's dumb, you shouldn't do that" it would be a step toward better discussions. Again: this isn't about what is allowed, it's about what is smart.

Yeah, I'm not talking about what people are "allowed" to do. Whoops! Yeah I figured. I think if that were a more widely held and known opinion, discussions would improve.

Ok?

Currently, yes. I hope that changes. A private option would not fix the problem because the problem is the lack of lively discussion.

Yeah... gosh... I feel like we're talking in circles here. I'm saying that maybe they don't realize it, maybe they don't understand it, maybe things could improve... It's a suggestion. I'm suggesting something. I'm saying that something sucks, and suggesting ways it could be better. Maybe this thread has captured the problem, in a way

Yeah agreed. I left that a little open to interpretation. Was posting while you were.

I think I found the hiccup for some of you. When I said That could easily be interpreted as "Only positive feedback" or "you have to give a reason." That was not my intent. I'll try to be a little more clear. When I say "shooting down ideas" I mean approaching a suggestion with the purpose of finding things wrong with it and making no attempt to think up solutions. You can do that. You totally can. Lots of people do this. What I'm saying is that it's dumb. It discourages suggestions, ideas and discussion. It's the accountant's job.

It seems to be a common misinterpretation.

I get that. That's great. That's cool. I agree. I read it. People can think ideas suck and even post that. I apologize if anything in my post gave an indication to the contrary. I said the difference is subtle, but it is not semantics. It betrays the mindset of the person. I accept it wholeheartedly in good faith. We are talking about people who say "no" to suggested badge because they don't want to get it. In the best possible faith, that person is an obstacle. That is zero things. You're confused. You can do whatever you want. Again, sorry for any confusion. Yeah, it's pretty stupid, right?

The PBAoEs could use whirling hands for style and Tornado for the lulz

Of course. Ok? Dealt with. Maybe you're confused. Do you think I'm suggesting that people not post? Far from it. I'm arguing for education, not censorship. I think that the people who do this don't know how stupid it is. I think if a dev said "yeah that's stupid" but in a nice way, the people that do this stuff might believe it and rethink their methods... because a dev said it. These types love citing a dev. Net result: more people posting more opinions.

Yeah, and it can be ignored pretty easily. My quarrel isn't with that sort of post.

Weird, because it isn't relevant to my suggestion. I've read it. I understand it. What I'm saying here, in this thread is that there are posters who fundamentally misunderstand what a suggestion means and how to discuss it. It's a related, but different thing. I'm suggesting a few bullet points to help the people struggling, so they can stop being such an obstacle to discussion.

I suspect that post was made in an attempt to address some of this behavior, but it's a little too optimistic, in my opinion.

Not to us. And that's what I'm asking them to weigh in on. My guess is that if they were honest about it is they would say something like "Yeah... we really don't need you to do that... and you probably shouldn't... because you have no idea what you're talking about." They might try to be nicer about it.

It's a super weird thing to do... and people treat it like it's their job. It would be one thing if they were experts of any kind... but then again a person with expertise typically hears potential and looks for solutions, rather than poke holes. Professionally, people that default to shooting things down are often called slugs because they're trying to avoid work... but these folks aren't even the ones doing the theoretical work.

Right. I'm not saying it's prohibited. I'm saying it's stupid. Right. I'm not talking about your feelings. I'm talking about your wild, uninformed guesses about their feelings. Who told you that? Lol.

This subforum has earned a reputation for being a shit place to post ideas. It is suffering from an artificial, user imposed sanction on interesting or productive conversation. Can we get a dev or mod opinion on any of these points? It would go a long way to fostering discussion here. 1. The dev's time and ability is an uninteresting and unhelpful talking point that comes up in a ridiculous number of threads. The people who cite it rarely have any idea what they're talking about and use it as a catch all way to "vote" no. 2. We are not voting. Posters will often reply something akin to "I'm ok with it..." or "it's a no..." like they're voting. The difference between voting no and saying what you don't like about an idea is subtle, but important for discussion. 3. Shooting down ideas is just not a thing. The only person who should be shooting down ideas is the person paying for them. Conversations with naysayers are short, unproductive and not very fun. You can like or dislike an idea, but if you can't think of a way to improve upon an idea and don't want to try, you should not be part of the discussion. There's a handful of very confused posters that don't understand these things and they are ruining conversations and discouraging people from posting their ideas. I don't know that they'll necessarily understand any of this, but a tidy mod opinion on it couldn't hurt. If the ideas flow freely, you're more likely to hear a good one.

So what usually happens when it doesn't work?

Good news. You don't have to. That's not a thing you ever have to do. It's not a thing that needs doing and if it becomes one, you aren't the person that has to do it! This is tremendous! What a load off your plate. We had no idea you thought this was something you were supposed to do!