Focused Feedback: Rage

[Errants]

5 hours ago, Cooltastic said:

Rage Revamp: Tweaked a bit from my earlier post with a better understanding of what I was trying to go for hopefully.

 

So this is how I personally feel the power should work based on it's theme, while giving players the ability to manage it however they like. Also boosting SS's damage potential slightly(when and if you want to push it.)

 

First: Lower the cooldown on Rage from 4mins to 3mins. This allows the ability to get double stacked for about 30secs with roughly 95% recharge slotted. With Hasten you will be able to keep double stacked for even longer. With IO set bonuses added in you'll be able to triple stack Rage for a good amount of time. I'd like to see a build that can maintain ALMOST maintain perma Triple stacks if they want to go all in on Rage.

 

Secondly: Change the +80 Dam/+20 To-hit to +60 Dam/+15 To-hit per stack of Rage. The First stack will provide slightly less than live, but makes up for it in the end if you want to pursue the max offensive potential of the ability. On live you can perma Double Stacked, which comes out to +160 Dam/+40 To-hit. With the suggested alterations, while triple stacked, you will be able to reach +180 Dam/+45 To-hit.

 

Third: Remove the penalty at the end of Rage altogether and replace it with this step 4.

 

Fourth: Your first stack of Rage comes with no negative effects, just a straight buff. Your second and third stacks will have stacking negative effects that will be applied to your character for as long as you maintain the extra stacks of Rage. These are -7.5%Def/-15%Ell/-15%Res or -10%Def/-20%Ell/-20%Res(Which ever feels more fair for the added damage/acc boost in return.

 

Fifth: Make the End cost of 25% get spent upon activation of each stack.

 

These are my proposed changes to revamp this power in a way that should make the majority of players happy. Those that want to manage a single stack can still do so and save slots in the process by not needing to slot Rage for Recharge, can instead slot +To-hit to make up for the lower single stack amount. Those that just want to have fun stacking Rage will still get to do so, by setting it to Auto and letting what may come happen. Lower damage Tanks who's defenses are stacked may be more inclined to triple stack because they can afford the negative effects easier. Higher DPS brutes may prefer to manage single or double stacks as to keep they're survivability up, allowing them to make use of their designated Rage Slots elsewhere. These changes help open up builds slightly more for Super Strength.

 

These changes would make rage feel more in line with what it sounds like thematically. As your rage grows you are able to dish out more and more damage. But rage is hard to control, so as it grows it also makes you less focused on protecting yourself. The player gets to manage their character concept this way as well. Superman types would be more of a focused Rage. Hulk types would be more careless and only concerned with SMASH! 

 

Well, that's that as they say. Hope I've described things well enough to give this some serious thought over. 

Something like this - Make Rage reckless. Extra damage comes at a cost.

[csr]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The solution for Rage is obviously more stacks of Rage.  😞

 

Maybe the "crash" of Rage is that when it wears off everyone on your aggro list gets it.

[Vanden]

I think having to be careful with your Rage use so you don't crash is very thematic; after all, characters with super strength in fiction often have to be careful not to injure or destroy the things they interact with.

[summers]

24 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I think having to be careful with your Rage use so you don't crash is very thematic; after all, characters with super strength in fiction often have to be careful not to injure or destroy the things they interact with.

 

How often does Superman or the Hulk collapse into exhaustion in the middle of a fight? Every 60 seconds or so?

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, summers said:

 

How often does Superman or the Hulk collapse into exhaustion in the middle of a fight? Every 60 seconds or so?

Hulk does turn back into Banner when he calms down.  

[Major_Decoy]

5 hours ago, DMW45 said:

...why are they listening to min-maxers?

Because even min-maxers are people who play the game? Their opinions aren't invalid just because they don't play the same way you do?

[Cawshun]

12 hours ago, Haijinx said:

They are the ones standing in the way of a crashless easy to use perma-buildup for SS

 

The version on beta offers a crashless, easy-to use perma rage. You're literally getting what you want, while those of us that want rage to continue being a unique and fun risk-reward mechanic get that too.

 

6 hours ago, csr said:

Double stacking Rage with the crash isn't really much of a bonus.  Especially for Brutes.  Even a solo Brute is often running at 350% Base damage with one stack of Rage.  Let's say we have an Incarnate Brute that solos at 400% damage with a 60s double stack.  So, he does 480% damage for 60s (half the time), 0 for 10s and then 400% for 50s.  Net average 407%, up from the 400% from single stacked Rage and a 2% DPS buff at the cost of crash every 120s that hits Def/Res fairly hard.

The closer you get to perma-stacking and the lower your base damage%, the more value you receive. My Bio/SS tanker I made for testing is at 118.5% damage bonus with one stack, 198.5% with two. With perma double stack that's an average 167% damage bonus for a 41% dps increase over the base buff. Sure when taking group buffs in to account, especially with a kin, that % will drop, but the point is that while solo, it is a significant bonus.

[Myrmidon]

14 hours ago, Haijinx said:

However there are vocal advocates who want MORE than a perma build up, they want to be able to have long overlap periods of TWO buildups. (30+ seconds typically)

 

Maybe we can start up a program for the Stacking Junkies and they can finally have the help they need.

[Annapuna]

Not sure if the following was already suggested as an option ( the thread has grown large very quickly):

 

Do I find the current crash annoying? Yes, I like many others will fire off attacks without noticing that I won't be doing any damage to speak of.

Does the crash need to go? No. But it should not be made worse.

In the parts of this thread that I did read through there were many discussions about getting rid of the crash vs making the crash worse or nerfing/changing the damage in some way or another.

I basically like the Rage power as it is but I can understand that perhaps a compromise needs to be somewhere as there are too many different opinions. So perhaps another possible change suggestion:

How about giving rage a 'chance' to crash. For example:

  1 stack of rage active:   No crash when it expires

  2 stacks of rage active: 75% chance of crash (the current crash values?)

  3 stacks of rage active: 100% guaranteed crash with a even tougher crash value

 

More damage should come at a price and this variation would be one that I can accept. Values can be changed of course but you get the idea.

 

AP

[Tersival]

I find it strangely heartening to see so much debate since it suggests the issue being examined is so close to balanced that there is no clear winner. 

 

My only request is that if the rage recharge rate is what determines a crash or not, please make it so that ONLY my build effects my rage recharge rate. I can handle needing to avoid stacking rage to avoid a crash. If I have to then change my play whenever I team up with someone with Speed Boost that becomes a right royal pain and a disincentive to teaming up. 

 

Yes I could talk to Null the Gull to ignore speed boost but that’s another disincentive because I loose all the other benefits of Speed Boost that I currently enjoy. 

[Haijinx]

Null the gull speed boost only affects the run speed portion

[Captain Citadel]

Can we have a compromise? Remove the crash but reduce the overall effectiveness of the power so 2 stacks of Rage is equivalent to maybe 1.5 or 1.25? And don't let it stack past 2?

Super Strength's damage output is garbage compared to other sets, particularly Titan Weapons, but those other sets don't have Rage. That's why I don't like the crash, because I get 50 seconds or so of good damage on a Tanker and then I get 10 seconds of zero appreciable damage, followed by average damage at best with one stack. I can mitigate the other parts of the crash, but the -999% damage feels awful. It might match the whole "Hulk turning back into Banner" theme, but I'm sure far more characters are themed after Superman, or some other Super Strength character who isn't cyclically losing all their powers.

Honestly, if I could turn Rage into a toggle or avoid taking it altogether (without reducing my "superhuman strength" to "gently shoving things with a feather pillow") I would. And I really don't like this idea that the only option for avoiding the crash is to micro-manage the power because I made my global recharge too high. I didn't do it to stack Rage, I did it to make better use of my two best powers, Knockout Blow and Foot Stomp.

[Rathulfr]

2 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

I made my global recharge too high. I didn't do it to stack Rage, I did it to make better use of my two best powers, Knockout Blow and Foot Stomp.

Good point!  I'd prefer to see all of Super Strength's attacks buffed and Rage nerfed accordingly, instead of the accidental/incidental recharge buff crash penalty.

[Haijinx]

10 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Good point!  I'd prefer to see all of Super Strength's attacks buffed and Rage nerfed accordingly, instead of the accidental/incidental recharge buff crash penalty.

This would be nice.  

 

My wish would be to slow the recharge of jab and punch to mirror stone melee (and thus increase damage/dpa based on the rec/dam formula)

 

And increase the damage of hurl a bit. 

 

Then go to single rage refreshing instead of stacking.  

 

Of course this would push SS way past stone melee, which would be an issue.

 

But as far as SS goes, it would move its benefits from high recharge closer to what other sets get.  

 

As long as double rage exists they would be crazy to address the lackluster powers in the set .. 

 

Which is ironic, since the double rage advocates use those as the rationalization for double rage.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Haijinx

[Sniktch]

Hurl got an indirect damage boost for tankers at least because it now uses the melee scalar.  That's always been its biggest problem - both Brutes and Tanks have abysmal ranged damage scalars.  Its actual base damage is not as bad as so many make it out to be, it's just foot-shot by a 50% scalar on Live.

 

*edit* Misthunked - the ranged scalars on both ATs got bumped, not Hurl got switched.  Still, a big buff for it already.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Sniktch

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Tersival said:

I find it strangely heartening to see so much debate since it suggests the issue being examined is so close to balanced that there is no clear winner. 

 

My only request is that if the rage recharge rate is what determines a crash or not, please make it so that ONLY my build effects my rage recharge rate. I can handle needing to avoid stacking rage to avoid a crash. If I have to then change my play whenever I team up with someone with Speed Boost that becomes a right royal pain and a disincentive to teaming up. 

 

Yes I could talk to Null the Gull to ignore speed boost but that’s another disincentive because I loose all the other benefits of Speed Boost that I currently enjoy. 

 

[Myrmidon]

Rage’s recharge not being affected by Speed Boost (or other +Speed powers) solves the issue with the Stacking and actually makes this work as intended.

[Captain Citadel]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

Rage’s recharge not being affected by Speed Boost (or other +Speed powers) solves the issue with the Stacking and actually makes this work as intended.

It doesn't solve the issue of people like me who slotted LotG into their build to benefit Foot Stomp and Knockout Blow, and took Ageless as their Destiny-slot Incarnate power to benefit their team because it refills their endurance bars. I can take the recharge directly out of Rage and still be way over the double-stack threshold. Making high recharge bad on an auto-cast power because it becomes too easy to double-stack (which we will be penalized for not avoiding now, instead of just being penalized for using the power at all which is already bad) is extremely counter-intuitive and unfun.

[DMW45]

5 hours ago, Cawshun said:

The version on beta offers a crashless, easy-to use perma rage.

That's the thing.  It's not easy to use.  It's an annoyance tax.  Skillsets should not have built in annoyances that punish you if heaven forbid you get two seconds of stacked rage.

Edited September 13, 2019 by DMW45

[Cawshun]

11 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

 Making high recharge bad on an auto-cast power because it becomes too easy to double-stack (which we will be penalized for not avoiding now, instead of just being penalized for using the power at all which is already bad) is extremely counter-intuitive and unfun.

Well that's user error for setting it to auto cast and ignoring the mechanics of the power. Take it off auto cast and press it every two minutes, problem solved. Frees up your auto cast to be used on another power too. 

 

2 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Rage’s recharge not being affected by Speed Boost (or other +Speed powers) solves the issue with the Stacking and actually makes this work as intended.

What isn't working as intended? If rage overlaps at any point, both will crash. If there's no overlap, there won't be a crash.

 

4 minutes ago, DMW45 said:

That's the thing.  It's not.  It's an annoyance tax.  Skillsets should not have built in annoyances that punish you if heaven forbid you get two seconds of stacked rage.

So don't recast rage early. If monitoring the buff for when it falls off is an issue for many players, maybe another way to monitor buffs needs to be looked in to before resorting to reworking a power.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Cawshun

[Captain Citadel]

3 minutes ago, Cawshun said:

Well that's user error for setting it to auto cast and ignoring the mechanics of the power. Take it off auto cast and press it every two minutes, problem solved. Frees up your auto cast to be used on another power too.

Another power like what, Hasten? That I don't have? I don't have any other powers worth being able to auto-cast. It''s not user error, it's an annoyance tax.

[DMW45]

5 minutes ago, Cawshun said:

Well that's user error for setting it to auto cast and ignoring the mechanics of the power. Take it off auto cast and press it every two minutes, problem solved. Frees up your auto cast to be used on another power too. 

 

What isn't working as intended? If rage overlaps at any point, both will crash. If there's no overlap, there won't be a crash.

So overlapping powers is bad now?  Are we going to see a crash on Perma Hasten, or Perma Dom?

[Cawshun]

15 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

Another power like what, Hasten? That I don't have? I don't have any other powers worth being able to auto-cast. It''s not user error, it's an annoyance tax.

Do you slot gaussian's proc in rage? If so, having it on auto is already a bad idea, as you're more likely to waste the proc. Armor sets like Shield or SR can make use of the auto cast on their CC protection, you mentioned ageless which could be worth auto casting depending on the situation. Personally I wouldn't run SS without hasten and I run a +rech proc in FS as well, but that's personal preference on how I like SS to feel.

 

15 minutes ago, DMW45 said:

So overlapping powers is bad now?  Are we going to see a crash on Perma Hasten, or Perma Dom?

When did I say overlapping is bad? I just said if you don't want to crash, don't overlap. I plan my SS builds around the crash, that way I have a way to deal with it when it happens. 

Hasten doesn't really stack, and requires significant investment in +recharge to get to the point of being up permanently. I'm not as familiar with dom because I don't like the archetype personally, but I don't recall it stacking. Even if it does, it also requires massive investment to have it stacked for any meaningful amount of time. As you've already stated, it doesn't take much investment in rage to stack it. With a really heavy recharge build you could even triple stack it if you wanted, which is definitely not possible with your examples. Removing the crash and the stacking would require massive overhauls of SS damage numbers, which in the end would still result in a nerf to the set's damage potential, as numbers would have to be tuned around an average.  TL;DR: Apples and Oranges.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Cawshun

[Sniktch]

Hasten has a crash, two in fact - -END and -Recovery, and stacking does not negate either of these.  Hasten doesn't need a further crash because the power cannot self-stack for any appreciable time, UNLIKE Rage.  PermaDom is an outlier that the live devs never fixed but should have, and again does not self-stack,

 

Rage has a crash because 2 minutes of Build-up at launch was way too strong not to have one - it was just -END then.  Various permutations and forumite mobs got things changed, always with the yell of "Give us X and we'll take any downside!"  followed by the new downside drawing howls for blood.

 

If Rage is going to be 'get, set, forget', then it SHOULD be a toggle - my main issue with trying to change Rage to no-self-stack-but-still-click is that it's sophistry to claim you're not breaking the cottage rule in doing so.  If you're gonna do it, then damn it, DO it, openly and honestly, and own the choice - and the fallout.  At the very least, we can stop having the weekly Rage rage threads.

 

Personally, I think the proposed is the best compromise we're gonna get between current and toggle - if folks WANT to double-or-more-stack, they can - their call, their choice.  And their responsibility to deal with the consequences of that choice.  Same for if they want to just sleepwalk-auto it.  If they want to pay a smidge more attention, then they can avoid the crash entirely - just can't get double-Build-up at all times, either.  Of course, it's still gonna spawn a million wrathful whines from folks who just can't NOT touch the stove even after getting burned a dozen times, but at this point in my life, I have exactly zero fucks left to give for the physical and emotional well-being of that portion of the populace.

 

Is it the best solution?  Hell no.  But it's likely the best solution we're gonna get, so I can live with it. 

[Captain Citadel]

Domination actually does stack with itself, I've got like 40 seconds of it on my ice/fire build. Hasten doesn't stack, but it still has fairly forgiving penalties. I don't even mind the end crash on Rage so much, especially as we're getting more endurance in the patch. What I can't stand is the -999% damage debuff. That part needs to go.

At this point though, I'd rather the devs just admitted what they really want is for Rage to not stack anymore, and rebalance the damage output of SS to be competitive with other sets while under perma-single-stack Rage with no crash.