Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Profit]

I was accounting for the fact it won't be perfect all the time. And many defenders won't be right by the tank when it goes off.

 

im still trying to figure out how your fulcrum shift is at 16 seconds recharge when mine has 3 lvl 50 unboosted ios and I didn't get near that number

 

also why are you not considering there won't be a mob there to fulcrum shift off for your numbers? Do you really expect blasters to wait for the almighty fulcrum shift??

Edited September 15, 2019 by Profit

[skoryy]

47 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Here's a screenshot from Pine's where it's slotted with only 2 level 50 recharge IOs (not even boosted level 50s):

I'm counting 256% recharge on 'two level 50 recharge IOs'.  I'd like to know where you got these IOs, I can use a few on my alts.

 

Now, I can get double-stacked Fulcrums with two level 50 IOs + Siphon Speed + Hasten. But that's, again, assuming you can get 10 targets twice in a row...

 

53 minutes ago, siolfir said:

There's no arcane secret to do this, either... you hit Fulcrum Shift as the first thing you do in every other spawn, and that spawn and the next one usually dies before it's recharged.

The secret is making sure everyone else is there, you hit ten targets, and nobody else who's jumped along hasn't fired off their Judgement, room clearing AoE, or whatnot.  If you're micro-managing your runs this way, I don't have a problem with this.  Just don't expect the game to be balanced around it.

[csr]

58 minutes ago, Profit said:

I was accounting for the fact it won't be perfect all the time. And many defenders won't be right by the tank when it goes off.

 

im still trying to figure out how your fulcrum shift is at 16 seconds recharge when mine has 3 lvl 50 unboosted ios and I didn't get near that number

 

also why are you not considering there won't be a mob there to fulcrum shift off for your numbers? Do you really expect blasters to wait for the almighty fulcrum shift??

My Kin/DP Def build (the actual toon is still at level 22) has 15.24s recharge on FS using +70% from Hasten (perma), +20% from Siphon Speed (I can easily get higher than that if I want to, even at 22), Spiritual Core Paragon (T4), 2 L50 IOs and 78.75% in set bonuses (2 Purpled ATO sets, 4 LotGs, 3 6.25 and 2 5s).

Edited September 15, 2019 by csr
Removed irrelevant info.

[Odhinn]

First of all I want to thank Captain Powerhouse for all the work being put into these changes and City of Heroes in general.

 

Anecdotally, on live last night I was on my tank in a duo with a controller running the patron arc to get him the Red side epic pools. At one point the controller had to step AFK and joked about me not taking out all the mobs while he was gone. We both laughed about this because I was nearly useless on my own damage wise.

 

I logged on to test and remade my Bio / Spines tank. I made the test tank level 40 as it is close to the level of the one on live. He was able to solo a couple of radio mission that would take the live version much longer to do. On test running these mission and this character solo was fun as opposed to being a slog as it is currently on live, (I have tried).

I have not tested in a large group or against AVs or Pylons or what ever else.  I have not tested with a maxed out IO / Incarnate character as I think that is less significant.

 

My Feedback: the changes on test make the Tank AT more fun to play across more play styles / scenarios and at all levels. To me tanking a huge group of mobs or giant monsters while the does their thing is fun. But, sometimes i just want to play alone or family and friends are not on. In these times I still want to play my favorite character. The changes make a big impact on the enjoy-ability of playing a tank and given this is a game that is an important factor. I would also add that the extra damage helps with survivability in smaller groups or solo. As a tank I don't always get to choose what types of damage my enemies are going to use. When mobs have a damage type you are more prone to it is important to be able to defeat them a bit quicker. I know I have had tanks fall to some damage types simply because I was unable to damage them fast enough.

 

Lastly, I truly do not understand why some people are so opposed to tanks being a bit better at dealing damage. Some of whom it seems have never or rarely posted in the tank forums.

[siolfir]

55 minutes ago, Profit said:

I was accounting for the fact it won't be perfect all the time. And many defenders won't be right by the tank when it goes off.

 

im still trying to figure out how your fulcrum shift is at 16 seconds recharge when mine has 3 lvl 50 unboosted ios and I didn't get near that number

 

also why are you not considering there won't be a mob there to fulcrum shift off for your numbers? Do you really expect blasters to wait for the almighty fulcrum shift??

I said it before (global recharge). That build doesn't have SOs slotted - my character does, though, because I haven't decided if I want to swap up the build. And then I realized it didn't really matter. Plus if I wanted to optimize my own damage I'd just end up splitting up sets to go for procs. As for considering a mob won't be there to Fulcrum Shift off of... I did say I hit it every other spawn. The second one dies too quickly.

 

19 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Now, I can get double-stacked Fulcrums with two level 50 IOs + Siphon Speed + Hasten. But that's, again, assuming you can get 10 targets twice in a row...

 

The secret is making sure everyone else is there, you hit ten targets, and nobody else who's jumped along hasn't fired off their Judgement, room clearing AoE, or whatnot.  If you're micro-managing your runs this way, I don't have a problem with this.  Just don't expect the game to be balanced around it.

Trigger FS when you get to the spawn, and don't lag behind. I don't force the rest of the team to keep up, but I don't wait for them to keep up either. This was specifically a response about keeping the Tanker at or near the cap, and they're likely to be surrounded when they jump in and get a max buff. I usually run next to or just behind the tank for the team, which is why Clarion's mez protection helped so much, and while the animation is going - before the buff pseudopets spawn - the rest of the team catches up.

[Profit]

You don't force the team to keep up or wait for them yet you think any tanker worth their salt is going to move into the next mob before the last part of the previous mob is dead ensuring team safety???

 

wow

[kenlon]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

I said it before (global recharge). That build doesn't have SOs slotted - my character does, though, because I haven't decided if I want to swap up the build. And then I realized it didn't really matter. Plus if I wanted to optimize my own damage I'd just end up splitting up sets to go for procs. As for considering a mob won't be there to Fulcrum Shift off of... I did say I hit it every other spawn. The second one dies too quickly.

Pretty sure the Homecoming devs, like the live devs, are not balancing around IOs.

 

Your argument against giving tankers a higher damage cap is invalid.

[Myrmidon]

5 hours ago, Profit said:

I personally view aggro management as a force multiplier. Keeping teammates alive, allowing them to attack more, allows more force to be pushed basically. Just my view on it though.

With you around, I just don’t have to do anything except agree.🤣

[Snakebit]

49 minutes ago, Profit said:

You don't force the team to keep up or wait for them yet you think any tanker worth their salt is going to move into the next mob before the last part of the previous mob is dead ensuring team safety???

 

wow

Thats the most optimal play...

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Bunmaster said:

On a side note about the secondary T1 powers. I don't know how the code works, but is it possible to make it non-mandatory when respeccing? As in, have it start out empty and allow the player to choose an extra power?

 

The Captain answered that a few pages back in that we will always have to choose Tier 1 in Secondaries.

 

 

 

However, that does not mean that those powers cannot be rearranged.😁

[Myrmidon]

Tested: WIllpower/Street Justice

 

With these changes, I found it to be enjoyable enough that my Brute of the same type will likely be converted over to Tanker.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, kenlon said:

Pretty sure the Homecoming devs, like the live devs, are not balancing around IOs.

 

Your argument against giving tankers a higher damage cap is invalid.

I wasn't arguing against it, I was arguing against the point being made that "a single Kinetic isn't going to cap a Tanker", and specifically the screenshots showing a no-global-recharge screenshot of Fulcrum Shift with a 30 second recharge saying "it isn't going to stack".

 

Also, bosses tend to die fairly quickly also, and can be picked off while chasing the tank as he runs to the next spawn. Because the taunt duration is longer than their lifespan.

Edited September 15, 2019 by siolfir

[Haijinx]

I think worrying about balance at the damage cap is pointless.  

 

Nothing survives at the damage cap.  A defender will be easily smoking stuff there.  

 

TBH if C Powerhouse made it 550 or even 500 for tankers it wouldn't matter much during 95% of content.

 

 

 

 

[Snakebit]

I put together an elec/sd tank and played it for about an hour in a high density battlemaiden fire farm. I chose elec/sd because I have a scrapper in that set at 50. I also have a spine/bio and I'll try that one day this week. I haven't played a tank seriously past 40 since Issue 10-ish. While I like the idea behind tanking, the vanilla implementation was always underwhelming for me, particularly on small teams and solo. 

 

I was expecting to bu+charge+Rod and then tstrike/CB for a lot of recycles and to be OOE constantly. I was expecting to be challenged at +2/8 without liberal use of inspirations.

 

I did softcap melee and had 38 on range, but other than the individual slots in powers I did not slot any endredux outside of the sets. I did not slot anything at all to stamina, health, healing, absorb, global hitpoints, and did not slot hasten at all. I had about 40% global recharge.  In other words, I was in no way min/maxed, though I did have good defenses. 

 

My expecatations were exceeded pleasently. The set on tanks takes BU+SC+LR, then maybe 3 cycles or Tstrike and whatever CB fits.  The damage is significantly better than I hoped. Endurance was very manageable, and I never fot below about 35% health even though I stayed at the aggro cap for the majority of the map. Popped small greens 2 times. Never needed a CaB. 

 

CB is freaking epic. Thunderstrike has an impact on the spawn. Even though the recharge times were really slow compared to my scrapper, the clear times were only maybe double, but I didn't have the same health and endurance issues as my scrapper. Note that my scrapper only had about 39 melee defense at 40 instead of the 50 on this slap together build. 

 

I very much like the flow of the set on a tank. It's smooth and has a margin of error. There's time to telenuke around and taunt. I was able to quickly recover from unexpected aggro and apply AOE's liberally. Very nice flow of battle. The scrapper BLAMS everything and what survives is probably dangerous so she has time/endurance/health pressure. The tank slams in and doesn't feel that pressure.  

 

I can see a lot of fun to be had as a tank with these changes.  I can see me making a lot of tank alts. 

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, Odhinn said:

First of all I want to thank Captain Powerhouse for all the work being put into these changes and City of Heroes in general.

 

Anecdotally, on live last night I was on my tank in a duo with a controller running the patron arc to get him the Red side epic pools. At one point the controller had to step AFK and joked about me not taking out all the mobs while he was gone. We both laughed about this because I was nearly useless on my own damage wise.

 

I logged on to test and remade my Bio / Spines tank. I made the test tank level 40 as it is close to the level of the one on live. He was able to solo a couple of radio mission that would take the live version much longer to do. On test running these mission and this character solo was fun as opposed to being a slog as it is currently on live, (I have tried).

I have not tested in a large group or against AVs or Pylons or what ever else.  I have not tested with a maxed out IO / Incarnate character as I think that is less significant.

 

My Feedback: the changes on test make the Tank AT more fun to play across more play styles / scenarios and at all levels. To me tanking a huge group of mobs or giant monsters while the does their thing is fun. But, sometimes i just want to play alone or family and friends are not on. In these times I still want to play my favorite character. The changes make a big impact on the enjoy-ability of playing a tank and given this is a game that is an important factor. I would also add that the extra damage helps with survivability in smaller groups or solo. As a tank I don't always get to choose what types of damage my enemies are going to use. When mobs have a damage type you are more prone to it is important to be able to defeat them a bit quicker. I know I have had tanks fall to some damage types simply because I was unable to damage them fast enough.

 

Lastly, I truly do not understand why some people are so opposed to tanks being a bit better at dealing damage. Some of whom it seems have never or rarely posted in the tank forums.

Just a question to gauge your reception of the differences between melees:

 

1. Would you play the Spines powerset on any other melee AT? Or is the changes to Tanker make the Spines set the most beneficial?
2. Are there characters you're considering remaking as Tankers? If so, why?
3. Are there any sets you wouldn't choose to play on a Tanker? If so, why?

 

 

To answer my own questions:

 

1. Haven't played Spines but I'll roll one up right now.  I would play Spines on my Stalker because I have a character and concept that only fits the Stalker and ranged crits are fun.

 

2. I actually do have a concept for a Brute that might fit better as a Tanker. The concept works for both but I want to remake the character purely because I have a good amount of Brutes and only 2 Tankers on live.  It also helps that I disliked the melee set for the live character because Savage is kind of meh...

 

3. Thinking about it, I don't really see myself using Electric Melee on a Tanker.  The set's AoEs benefit greatly from crits from Scrapper and Stalkers moreso than higher caps.  Maybe someone wants to chime in here...the AoE damage from Elec is kind of mild and criticals really makes the difference.  I'll roll one up just to experience expanded Jacob's Ladder though...

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, Profit said:

You don't force the team to keep up or wait for them yet you think any tanker worth their salt is going to move into the next mob before the last part of the previous mob is dead ensuring team safety???

 

wow

If you wait for trash to be swept, you will miss your chance to do your job, i.e. tanking Alphas.  Now you could be vindictive and intentionally go the opposite way from someone who rushed ahead of you or let them take care of their own aggro but then you're stepping all over your own principals of ensuring the safety of the team.

 

You're either knowledgeable and adaptable to your teammates needs (some might need a babysitter like you...a lot don't, however) or you box them in to your needs.  I'm pretty good at going with the flow...just got off of a team where the leader insisted I lead the charge on my Stalker despite there being a Tanker.  I think they just wanted someone to use their support skills on rather than sitting back and shooting.  Lol it all worked out and we all had fun.  Fun often means a sense of danger or struggle without actively shooting your team in the foot for it. 

[Snakebit]

11 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Just a question to gauge your reception of the differences between melees:

 

1. Would you play the Spines powerset on any other melee AT? Or is the changes to Tanker make the Spines set the most beneficial?
2. Are there characters you're considering remaking as Tankers? If so, why?
3. Are there any sets you wouldn't choose to play on a Tanker? If so, why?

 

 

To answer my own questions:

 

1. Haven't played Spines but I'll roll one up right now.  I would play Spines on my Stalker because I have a character and concept that only fits the Stalker and ranged crits are fun.

 

2. I actually do have a concept for a Brute that might fit better as a Tanker. The concept works for both but I want to remake the character purely because I have a good amount of Brutes and only 2 Tankers on live.  It also helps that I disliked the melee set for the live character because Savage is kind of meh...

 

3. Thinking about it, I don't really see myself using Electric Melee on a Tanker.  The set's AoEs benefit greatly from crits from Scrapper and Stalkers moreso than higher caps.  Maybe someone wants to chime in here...the AoE damage from Elec is kind of mild and criticals really makes the difference.  I'll roll one up just to experience expanded Jacob's Ladder though...

 

Made a short post about my hour or so on test with sd/elec. 

 

All in all it's really strong and pretty. I didn't use ladder but did use Chain. Chain is awesome.  It lights up everything. Thunderstrike is actually good as well. Hits a lot more targets and has some actual meat to it. 

 

Compared to my scrapper, it was much easier to get to the melee cap and I had higher ranged as well. I do think the scrapper would have an easier time on higher difficulties with the same defense because of the lack of a self heal and the scrapper kills all the minions now while the tank takes two more cycles to clear the minions and then 3-4 more for bosses and LTs. Even though there's only 5% damage coming from the minions, it climbs quickly with 2 bosses and the tank WILL survive longer but not long enough to clear the bosses, where the scrapper crits pull way way ahead and get it done before being overwhelmed. 

[Odhinn]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

Just a question to gauge your reception of the differences between melees:

 

1. Would you play the Spines powerset on any other melee AT? Or is the changes to Tanker make the Spines set the most beneficial?
2. Are there characters you're considering remaking as Tankers? If so, why?
3. Are there any sets you wouldn't choose to play on a Tanker? If so, why?

1: On old Live I had a Spines / Dark Scraper that was painful to play for endurance reasons. I do not remember if he got to 50 or not. I liked the idea of spines having a bit of range and having Quills. When I started with Homecoming I made a tank first (I was a tank since release) wanted to try spines on a tank when I saw it was available and decided to try Bio Armor since it was new to me as well. So yes, I have played the set on others (Including a farm brute) and no the current proposed changes were not a consideration as he was made in April.

 

2: I always want to try all sorts of tankers. My main is an Invul/SS and has been since Issue 1. Should the endurance buff to 120 stand I will unquestionably make a Dark Armour Tank.

 

3: Super Reflexes not for any game mechanics reason but because it does not fit my idea of what a tanker is. Super reflexes is more Anderson Silva than Butter Bean to me.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Just a question to gauge your reception of the differences between melees:

 

1. Would you play the Spines powerset on any other melee AT? Or is the changes to Tanker make the Spines set the most beneficial?
2. Are there characters you're considering remaking as Tankers? If so, why?
3. Are there any sets you wouldn't choose to play on a Tanker? If so, why?

 

1. I tried it in the old reality, however, I don’t think so. It’s ugly and it’s momma dresses it funny.

 

2. Definitely Dark Armor. I love the control of it, I just haven’t put the Tanker version (to join my Scrapper and Stalker) in the play rotation. That will definitely change with these changes (especially if the +End stays). My StJ/WP, Elec/Shield Brutes, possible along with my Katana/WP (Dark/Katana switch) will all find their way to my list, along with an Invul/SS again.

 

3. I will chop off both of my hands before I play Stone Armor in its current form.

[MunkiLord]

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

3. Thinking about it, I don't really see myself using Electric Melee on a Tanker.  The set's AoEs benefit greatly from crits from Scrapper and Stalkers moreso than higher caps.  Maybe someone wants to chime in here...the AoE damage from Elec is kind of mild and criticals really makes the difference.  I'll roll one up just to experience expanded Jacob's Ladder though...

Lightning Rod (Shield Charge too) doesn't crit since it is a psuedopet. But it does inherit the damage modifier of the AT, so that set will likely always be better on Scrappers and especially Stalkers since it doesn't break hide. 

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

 

1. I tried it in the old reality, however, I don’t think so. It’s ugly and it’s momma dresses it funny.

 

2. Definitely Dark Armor. I love the control of it, I just haven’t put the Tanker version (to join my Scrapper and Stalker) in the play rotation. That will definitely change with these changes (especially if the +End stays). My StJ/WP, Elec/Shield Brutes, possible along with my Katana/WP (Dark/Katana switch) will all find their way to my list, along with an Invul/SS again.

 

3. I will chop off both of my hands before I play Stone Armor in its current form.

Stone/Spines FTW

 

what does granite look like with spines, anyway?

[csr]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Stone/Spines FTW

 

what does granite look like with spines, anyway?

Hmmmm... now I want to know what Granite looks like running Ripper.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

Lightning Rod (Shield Charge too) doesn't crit since it is a psuedopet. But it does inherit the damage modifier of the AT, so that set will likely always be better on Scrappers and especially Stalkers since it doesn't break hide. 

For Stalkers, Lightning Rod doesn't unhide so it's possible to put mobs on the floor before using AS if the alpha is too rough.  Also, Thunder Strike can be used with hide to 100% crit the targeted foe.

 

For Scrappers, Thunder Strike, when it crits on any target it hits, basically gets the full crit damage as if they were critted by the smashing AND energy damage portions.

 

I've yet to make a Tanker version so I can only guess Jacob's Ladder hits more targets although someone also mentioned Chain Induction hitting more targets as well.

[MunkiLord]

I didn't realize Thunderstrike got extra for Scrappers. But that would explain why I still found it useful despite the long ass animation. 

[Sovera]

15 hours ago, Bunmaster said:

I personally think that the proposed 575% is still too much. Damage is a brute thing. Tanks should be tanks, the increases aoe and cone radius is amazing, it definitely helps with aggro.

 

Theoretically  when tanks and brutes team up, with these new changes, brutes would have less aggro. Thus less fury and damage, thus an indirect nerf. Though this is merely a theory, needs some tests first.

 

I would expand bruising , revert the modifier change back to the original, make ta cap 550% and increase the aoe/cone radius. That should keep the tanker playstyle the same. 

 

That +20 End makes 0 sense, every AT can make the claim that they need more endurance, why is the tank the special one?

 

On a side note about the secondary T1 powers. I don't know how the code works, but is it possible to make it non-mandatory when respeccing? As in, have it start out empty and allow the player to choose an extra power?

 

15 hours ago, BillyMailman said:

Can you give any more explanation why there's no willingness to look into fixing/un-nerfing bruising? Removing it because it sucks feels like entirely the wrong approach, when it only sucks because it got broken somewhere along the line. Was the nerf actually intentional in the first place? Bruising on the live servers was actually pretty awesome, and when I found out how badly it had been nerfed on Homecoming, I was actually really looking forward to hopefully being able to get it un-nerfed, not see it removed.

 

If someone wants a tank that personally does a lot of damage, well, as you yourself said earlier in this thread, there are other tank classes. You've even acknowledged that they're slower at defeating mobs, by giving them the extra endurance. So, I don't see the harm in embracing the idea that Tankers should simply be the furthest to one end of the damage vs. survivability spectrum, when it comes to melee characters. Let them focus on other forms of mitigation/support, through things like the increased AoE, and a correctly-working Bruising power.

 

 

You guys really need to read the thread before rehashing questions that were already asked, and answered, and asked again, and asked again, and asked again, and now asked again.