Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[csr]

9 hours ago, Auroxis said:

That's almost the same as the total resistance debuff output from radiation emission/pain/thermal/time/nature on a corruptor.

Of course, Bruising can't stack.  Which means that in fights where it matters (AVs/GMs), one Tanker gets value from it and the rest don't.  Most of those other -Res effects you referred to are also AoE (Nature being the exception). 

[Mr. Igneous]

Hello all,

 

Hope you are all well.

 

I still think an aggro cap of only 17, and an active taunt power that only taunts 10 at a time is very low.  I am coming from the view of a career Stone tank in Granite armor.  I live with a -65 percent recharge time and a -30 percent damage to my attacks.  So, people complaining about tanks not doing enough damage is funny to me...lol. 

 

I would love to see Granite armor gain a taunt aura of at least 17 mobs with a radius of 20 feet.  We are not mobile, and it would give a reason for some to consider teaming up with a slow Granite tank.

 

You have said that the aggro cap can't be raised for individual ATs, can a Taunt go above the aggro cap limit, say you Taunt 25 Mobs with an active taunt, they are Taunted for a certain duration, after which if you don't taunt again you lose their aggro?  Is that possible?

 

Maybe if this is not possible we could raise the aggro cap limit on all ATs like it was in the past, therefore promoting more teamwork to handle aggro.  I would love to see at least a 50 aggro cap limit, as a Granite tank... Plus, it was always amusing watching a blaster run from 100 mobs.....

 

Thanks,

 

Mr. Igneous

[siolfir]

7 hours ago, Profit said:

Wait... What?

This has to be a troll job, but I'll take it as an honest question.

 

Brutes get less actual damage increase than the other melee ATs because they have the lowest modifier. They have more +damage on a constant basis due to their inherent, so that smaller increase applies to a number that's already inflated due to Fury's +damage, resulting in a very small increase.

 

Take a scale 1 attack (55.61 damage) with 95% slotting (rounding to second decimal place). Here are the base numbers.

Brute (no Fury): 55.61 * 1.95 * 0.75 = 81.33 damage

Tanker (no changes): 55.61 * 1.95 * 0.8 = 86.75 damage

Tanker (beta): 55.61 * 1.95 * 0.95 = 103.02 damage

Stalker (no critical): 55.61 * 1.95 = 108.44 damage

Scrapper (no critical): 55.61 * 1.95 * 1.125 = 121.99 damage

Brute (70 Fury): 55.61 * 3.35 * 0.75 = 139.72 damage

 

Add a small red (+25% damage), which at 95% slotting provides a 12.8% increase (1.95 + 0.25 buffed damage / 1.95 original damage) in overall damage in the absence of other damage buffs:

Brute (no Fury): 55.61 * 2.20 * 0.75 = 91.76 damage (10.43 damage more)

Tanker (no changes): 55.61 * 2.20 * 0.8 = 97.87 damage (11.12 damage more)

Tanker (beta): 55.61 * 2.20 * 0.95 = 116.22 damage (13.20 damage more)

Stalker (no critical): 55.61 * 2.20 = 122.34 damage (13.9 damage more)

Scrapper (no critical): 55.61 * 2.20 * 1.125 = 137.63 damage (15.64 damage more)

Brute (70 Fury): 55.61 * 3.60 * 0.75 = 150.15 damage (10.43 damage more, a 7.5% increase in overall damage because Fury provides so much +damage already)

 

So the Brute gains the smallest amount of actual damage increase, as well as a smaller benefit from any +damage buff relative to what they had without it, simply due to how Fury drowns it out. If your goal is to kill things faster, you're better off buffing someone else until they hit the damage cap.

 

1 hour ago, csr said:

Of course, Bruising can't stack.  Which means that in fights where it matters (AVs/GMs), one Tanker gets value from it and the rest don't.  Most of those other -Res effects you referred to are also AoE (Nature being the exception). 

True, but Bruising is more consistent than Melt Armor or Anguishing Cry due to the long cooldowns on those powers compared to a Tanker's tier 1 attack. Enervating Field is by far the most reliable of those, being an autohit 15' AoE with an 8 second recharge, especially now that it will anchor on the corpse, but it doesn't debuff defense (and Radiation Infection has a much longer cast time, during which the anchor often dies).

 

Off-topic, but I personally think that the recharge on Melt Armor is too high (15' AoE, 150 sec recharge, 18.2 end), and the numbers for similar powers are all over the place - just look at Sleet/Freezing Rain (60 seconds, 18.2 end), Anguishing Cry (25', 120 sec, 13 end), and Slowed Response (25', 90 sec, 15.6 end). It's one of the reasons I never made a Thermal once Homecoming went public.

 

Relative to this thread, I'm not saying to keep or remove Bruising, but I am saying that single-target or not, it was readily available every fight and some of the AoEs you were comparing it to aren't, outside of high global recharge builds.

[tellania]

1 hour ago, Mr. Igneous said:

Hello all,

 

Hope you are all well.

 

I still think an aggro cap of only 17, and an active taunt power that only taunts 10 at a time is very low.  I am coming from the view of a career Stone tank in Granite armor.  I live with a -65 percent recharge time and a -30 percent damage to my attacks.  So, people complaining about tanks not doing enough damage is funny to me...lol. 

 

I would love to see Granite armor gain a taunt aura of at least 17 mobs with a radius of 20 feet.  We are not mobile, and it would give a reason for some to consider teaming up with a slow Granite tank.

 

You have said that the aggro cap can't be raised for individual ATs, can a Taunt go above the aggro cap limit, say you Taunt 25 Mobs with an active taunt, they are Taunted for a certain duration, after which if you don't taunt again you lose their aggro?  Is that possible?

 

Maybe if this is not possible we could raise the aggro cap limit on all ATs like it was in the past, therefore promoting more teamwork to handle aggro.  I would love to see at least a 50 aggro cap limit, as a Granite tank... Plus, it was always amusing watching a blaster run from 100 mobs.....

 

Thanks,

 

Mr. Igneous

Granite tanks are the tanks everyone wants on master runs or certain incarnate trials, not for herding 100 mobs ...

 

Have you tested mudpots yet, and was it (for some reason) insufficent?   

 

 

[Mr. Igneous]

28 minutes ago, tellania said:

Granite tanks are the tanks everyone wants on master runs or certain incarnate trials, not for herding 100 mobs ...

 

Have you tested mudpots yet, and was it (for some reason) insufficent?   

 

 

Yes, I have been testing a Stone/Ice tank on the test server.  Being able to hold 17 mobs is trivial for a Granite tank.  I happen to be one of those who loved herding a map of mobs before the changes to aggro and target caps.  I love the change to make cones wider, I like the doubling of the active power Taunt to 10 targets from 5.  Still think Taunt should max out the target cap at the current 17, if I am actively taunting with it it should be maxed out.

 

Here is what I want to be able to do.  With current cap of 17, I would love to be able to Taunt another 17 and herd the two groups together.  A total of 34 Mobs.  A compromise between unlimited aggro cap and this new 17 aggro cap.

 

To each his/her own, I happen to like herding.  I miss it.

 

Some can't stand waiting for a tank to herd, others love having Mobs all neatly packed to be nuked.  Giving the capability to herd up groups does not mean groups have to use herding if they hate it.  I just want the option to be able to if I wish.  No harm can come of it.

 

I don't find Mudpots or Ice Patch insufficient in effectiveness, I just want more aggro capability.  Asking for 34 aggro cap.  Should be enough to handle 2 groups of Mobs on 8 man teams.

[Rylas]

I know I'm late to the feedback party, but this is the soonest I could get to testing the changes.

 

Endurance Testing

The Build:
I made an Inv/Stone for testing out the boost to endurance, since neither set has an end recovery power. I auto-leveled to 30 and slotted only lvl 30 Basic IOs. Stamina was 2-slotted and didn't use any Endurance Reduction enhancements whatsoever. My goal here was to see how well endurance lasted for the average SO build.

 

Spoiler

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.2
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Endurance Testing: Level 49 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(3), ResDam-I(3)
Level 1: Stone Fist -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(5), Dmg-I(5)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(7), ResDam-I(7)
Level 4: Stone Mallet -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(11)
Level 6: Dull Pain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(11), RechRdx-I(13), Heal-I(13), Heal-I(15)
Level 8: Unyielding -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(15), ResDam-I(17)
Level 10: Heavy Mallet -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(27)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Invincibility -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(19), DefBuff-I(21)
Level 20: Taunt -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 22: Tremor -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(23), Dmg-I(23), Dmg-I(25)
Level 24: Resist Energies -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(25)
Level 26: Resist Elements -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(27)
Level 28: Tough Hide -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(29), DefBuff-I(29)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(21)
------------

 

The environment:
I started with +0/x6 for mission difficulty. I didn't want survival to be an issue to focus on, so I went with Council radio missions at first. I felt their -Rech ended up skewing things since I was recovering end while waiting around to be able to attack, so I switched to doing Warrior radio missions instead. I was able to aggro 2 spawn groups at a time (any beyond the aggro cap would eventually join the fray as foes were defeated). By the end of clearing 2 spawn groups, I was at ~15 endurance left. By the time I ran around to group up 2 more, I was near full again and able to keep going. I didn't use inspirations during these tests. While I have Hasten, I haven't tested the efficiency with it active yet.

 

Summary:

For having only SO numbers for performance, I found the additional endurance boost was incredibly helpful. My recovery was 3.08 end/sec. If I was playing normally (using endurance enhancements or blues as needed), I would probably never have to worry about endurance for most content. The change certainly is hitting the mark for making Tankers last longer. BUT, unless there's a way to turn off Accolades that I'm unaware of, my results are probably a bit skewed since I was testing at 130 Endurance rather than 120. I'd love to see how things would look without the additional 10 endurance.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Rylas

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, Mr. Igneous said:

We are not mobile, and it would give a reason for some to consider teaming up with a slow Granite tank.

 

While I would rather cut off both of my hands than play Stone Armor in its current form, I will always team with someone that plays the set.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Haijinx]

I always thought granite armor looked cool but every time i tried stone armor i quit as soon as i got rooted.  Or more accurately rooooooooooooooooooteeddd.

 

Props to anyone who can deal with that mess.   

 

Anyone who plays Stone/TW might want to get a job at the BMV, though.

 

 

 

[Mr. Igneous]

7 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 

While I would rather cut off both of my hands than play Stone Armor in its current form, I will always team with someone that plays the set.

Hello Myrmidon,

 

Lol, thank you for the laugh.  I love playing Stone Armor tanks. They are my favorite play style.  I can understand how some people might not like the limitations involved, but they can be highly rewarding.  I have been testing a Stone/Ice on the test server, a build I have wanted to do for a long time, but was afraid it would be massively tedious to level up.  The damage and cone changes on the test server are nice, and I might indeed build one up now.  It will still be a long slog.  I solo my Tanks to 50 with mission content, not AE farming.

 

I love being able to take a break for a phone call, eat breakfast...etc...and still be alive when I come back...and a minion or two might have died to mudpots damage...lol.  I am currently leveling up a Stone/Dark tank on live, and I really like the combination so far.  In the original game live I had a Stone/EM, absolute monster for killing Bosses and AVs, until they nerfed Energy Melee into the grave.   That on top of ED, and the nerf to the aggro cap and targetting cap really made me hate playing him.

[Mr. Igneous]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I always thought granite armor looked cool but every time i tried stone armor i quit as soon as i got rooted.  Or more accurately rooooooooooooooooooteeddd.

 

Props to anyone who can deal with that mess.   

 

Anyone who plays Stone/TW might want to get a job at the BMV, though.

 

 

 

You need to get IO sets early in a Stone build to mitigate the -speed penalty, or it is too painful to even position a cone attack.  Once slotted up with +runspeed IO bonuses it gets much better.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Mr. Igneous said:

You need to get IO sets early in a Stone build to mitigate the -speed penalty, or it is too painful to even position a cone attack.  Once slotted up with +runspeed IO bonuses it gets much better.

Can you jump at all in granite?  

[Mr. Igneous]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Can you jump at all in granite?  

Nope, can't even walk over a tall curb...I am not kidding.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Mr. Igneous said:

Nope, can't even walk over a tall curb...I am not kidding.

That's dumb.   Pretty sure the thing and monolith can defeat curbs.  

 

Still stone tanks are cool since if you stand next to one you'll never get melee aggro. 

[Myrmidon]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Igneous said:

Nope, can't even walk over a tall curb...I am not kidding.

 

I had an SG-Mate stop playing his around 45 because he couldn’t step over a curb.🤣

[Mr. Igneous]

Just now, Haijinx said:

That's dumb.   Pretty sure the thing and monolith can defeat curbs.  

 

Still stone tanks are cool since if you stand next to one you'll never get melee aggro. 

Indeed, the new Stone/Ice I am testing running mud pots and ice patch, as far as I can tell, noone is going to be pulling anything off of that combo.

 

I am off to bed, later Folks!

[Profit]

19 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Can you jump at all in granite?  

You need 9 kins with inertial reduction to jump while in granite. Unless something changed from when it was done on live.

 

edit:spelling

Edited September 18, 2019 by Profit

[Sniktch]

Dark/Rad probably could take aggro from that given enough time - 2 CC auras, damage aura, toggle that spawns damage/debuff patches in pairs, and taunt on top.  Of course, running all the toggles leaves you about .2 EPS to actually attack with...

[Haijinx]

Just now, Profit said:

You need 9 kind with intertidal reduction to jump while in granite. Unless something changed from when it was done on live.

Id like to propose letting stone tanks jump curbs

[Profit]

33 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Id like to propose letting stone tanks jump curbs

Seconded. Make it so.

[Warlawk]

Something that seems to be decidedly lacking in this thread is actual testing in game to see how it feels in play with an unfinished build.

I've created an elec/claws tanker and set level to 22 because that's how I would play on live, life before SO/IOs is just miserable regardless of anything else. This build was fully twinked with ATOs, Winter sets end procs in health etc because that's how I play on live. I then went and got my radio, set to +0x5 and starting running random radio missions. I've leveled a lot of brutes and scrappers like this so that is my primary comparison point. Claws was selected for the good early attack chain and excellent early level AoE. I was popping inspirations as they dropped without too much attention, just like normal.

 

Vs Freakshow I certainly found that their end drain was noteworthy when combined with the slower defeat speed of the tanker, I needed to keep an eye on my end bar with larger packs that contained multiple elec blast bastards just because they were alive longer to keep hitting those saps. Elec end drain resist was nice here and it never got to the point of running dry, but it was noticeable (compared to brute/scrapper).

Vs Tsoo I found that any pull with two or more sorcerers really required attention because my damage was low enough (compared to brute/scrapper) that their heals were relevant. Sorcerers also got lots of mileage out of their ability to teleport out and back in since they didn't die instantly.

Vs Lost When I saw a Lost mission pop up I started salivating. That went south pretty quickly. When you don't have enough damage to wipe them out in one rotation those rech debuffs hurt a lot. Lightning field put in work on this mission as I was standing there waiting for recharges watching my HP drop.

Vs Council I found they were the usual loot pinatas we have all come to know and love to hate. Some of the bigger spawns did put out enough dakka to see my HP start dropping down towards the 1/3 mark before they started dying off to the damage aura and aoe.

Vs Sky Raiders  they were easy but... annoying. Porters and the various jetpack types were able to do what they are supposed to do. They lived long enough to port in and out, fly around and generally be a nuisance. Not tough, but it certainly made you actually feel the flavor of the faction when they don't just fall over dead in one rotation.

Vs Arachnos it felt much the same as Vs Lost. The rech and other debuffs have more time to really make their impact felt and your toughness as a tanker gets a chance to shine.

 

 

I did find that regularly I would need to wait a few moments for my heal to come off cooldown before moving on to the next group. Not like every pull or anything, but regularly enough to be noticeable. Spin and the damage aura felt fantastic with the area increase. Overall even crunching reds as often as I could I was still glad to have set aside some greens because I needed them. I'm not sure that playing with bosses on is a good plan because they don't drop fast and have a lot of opportunity to land those annoying effects (-rech, I'm looking at you!). Overall it felt good to play but noticeably slower than a brute or scrapper, it absolutely had a bit of the "I am Inevitable" vibe to it which was a lot of fun. The different factions felt much more distinct when you don't wipe them out as fast, which was cool. Lightning field did a lot of heavy lifting since targets were on the field longer.

 

 

Spoiler

 

Under contrived best circumstance scenarios I have no doubt that Tankers will be relatively close in performance to Brutes, and that's OK because currently under those circumstances they are useless compared to Brutes. In general pickup group leveling play they feel quite different and are not in danger of eclipsing anyone except maybe defenders for damage. For the people railing against Tanker damage changes I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is and do something similar then post your experiences without hyperbole instead of just making up hypotheticals that will only ever exist on the forum because ideal circumstances just don't exist in game. I mean, come on... how many times have you had to sigh in frustration because the /kin was just at the edge of the group and missed all the scrappers/brutes with Fulcrum shift while they buffed the heck out of the defenders, corruptors and MMs?

 

These changes affect theorycrafting far more than actual play. Give them an actual try instead of just yelling that the sky is falling.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Warlawk

[nihilii]

13 hours ago, Mr. Igneous said:

Giving the capability to herd up groups does not mean groups have to use herding if they hate it.  I just want the option to be able to if I wish.  No harm can come of it.

I'm signing this suggestion, and adding my own: sentinel damage should be quadrupled. If people hate it, they can just not team with me. No harm done.

[kiramon]

On 9/15/2019 at 6:09 AM, Noyjitat said:

Besides world of pain and kinetics (maybe im forgetting another aoe damage buff?) there's no reason why you'd have lots of +damage from a league unless you were on a team with buffers and I doubt you were. It would only take you one kin with decent recharge build using siphon power and fulcrum for most all group content to get you into the new damage cap.

 

Why everyone always forget about nature? Heck, nature buff is 82.5% buff aoe lol 

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Warlawk said:

 

Something that seems to be decidedly lacking in this thread is actual testing in game to see how it feels in play with an unfinished build.

 

 

Ulthwe, you are absolutely right. We should be doing much more testing around that level range than the high end. I’ll make a couple of 22ish (both casual and set builds) and test some as well.

[Replacement]

Actual testing is so page 10 (edit: looks like my own 20/30 testing was page 12). 

 

We really needed a dedicated "cathartic argument" thread separate from a dedicated testing/feedback thread.  

 

Dear Homecoming staff: please give us a brand new thread when this week's patch hits the Pineapple.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Replacement

[Demon Shell]

Did some brief testing on a Will/TW Tanker at the 16-17 level range (+0/4, Bosses on).

 

With only Rise to the Challenge gaining any benefit, I expected to be underwhelmed with the overall range increase, but wow. The range on RttC is deep enough that I could freely reposition for cones while maintaining the debuff on all enemies (and the buff on myself). That felt amazing. Let me know if you want to give that to all auras.

 

Even given I already had a 10% end boost from the accolade, 20% for the passive (30% total) is way too much. I felt no endurance pressure at all, even with Hasten active against 2 4-man scale Clockwork groups at the same time (and I don't normally get Hasten until level 30). Unless the goal is to give Tankers a measure of global -end/-rec survival via abundance, I'd cut the passive in half to 10% (20% with accolades). I checked Combat Attributes and unslotted I have more Recovery than most of my end-game builds (3.36 rec). Granted, a lot of that is because of Quick Recovery, but even without it I'm at 2.71 endurance a second. My end-game Fire Melee/Dark Armor Brute is at 2.88 and they run Darkest Night.

 

The damage scale wasn't so noticable at first, then I slotted some damage enhancements and... it certainly helps. I'm not going to pretend like it was negligible. I'm also not going to pretend like I couldn't clear out mobs faster on my PB at that level. Definitely couldn't survive the same encounters solo, but such is the difference between a tank and a DPS (at least for a PB in that level range).

 

Never entered into a situation where I could test the Taunt or damage cap changes.